The answer of hell and its origins

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I do not remember, does the Holy Spirit indwell you? We who have him get
Illumination from him (Acts 13:2).

Source: 7 Bible verses about Spiritual Illumination

Daniel 5:14
Verse Concepts
Now I have heard about you that a spirit of the gods is in you, and that illumination, insight and extraordinary wisdom have been found in you.

John 14:26
Verse Concepts
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Hebrews 6:4
Verse Concepts
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:18
Verse Concepts
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

John 16:13-16
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.read more.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Verse Concepts
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

Source: 7 Bible verses about Spiritual Illumination

You can continue to disregard scripture which teach human beings are living souls, and instead continue to teach what others believe that human beings have living souls in their human bodies, but you and I are in disagreement. You have shown me nowhere in scripture or by your reasoning on scripture that human beings have living souls in their human bodies. What the scriptures teach, that we are living souls, not that we have living souls is what I will continue to believe.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

What about 1 Peter 3:19? You love to quote verse 18 but have no explanation of verse 19

What 1 Peter 3:19 is stating is, in the state of being a immortal incorruptible spirit body Jesus preached to these spirits. Peter’s use of the past tense suggests that the preaching occurred before Peter wrote his first letter. It was sometime after his resurrection, Jesus made a proclamation to the wicked spirits regarding the fully justified punishment they are due to receive. It was not a preaching that held out any hope for them. It was a preaching of judgment. (Jonah 1:1, 2) Once Jesus had demonstrated his faith and loyalty to death and then was resurrected, proving that the Devil indeed had no hold on him, Jesus had the basis for making such a condemnatory proclamation.(John 14:30; 16:8-11)

The apostle Peter identifies these spirits as those who had “once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days.” (1 Peter 3:20) Peter was referring to spirit creatures who chose to join Satan’s rebellion. Jude mentions the angels who “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place,” saying that God “has reserved them with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”(Jude 6)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

death is defined as seperation of body with spirit-soul remember unveiling of doctrine in bible is progressive, friend.

I understand that you honestly think that contradicting Genesis 2:7 and many other scriptures that say we are souls instead of having souls is what you call progressive teaching of the truth in scripture. I disagree, when it comes to progressive Bible truth, I don't believe any scripture contradicts another as you are doing, with your reasoning. Progressive Bible truth doesn't contradict another scripture in progressive truth in the scriptures. You're completely denying that God created man the way he said he did at Genesis 2:7, so you and I are going to disagree on that. Genesis 2:7 is completely accurate in how God created the human being when it says human beings are living souls.
The scripture at Genesis 2:7 doesn't have the word GAVE in that scripture, so if you or anyone reasons in any way on another scripture saying it teaches that the word BECAME doesn't belong in that scripture at Genesis 2:7 or is an inaccurate word in that scripture, which is what you're trying to do by saying that human beings have souls, you and I are going to be in disagreement. HUMAN BEINGS ARE LIVING SOULS. You can disagree with that, it's your right to disagree, but you're not convincing me you're staying within scripture, that you're teaching the truth from scripture. You're teaching what you believe to be the truth in scripture, I understand that. You and I as I said disagree.

 

[RLT63]

What 1 Peter 3:19 is stating is, in the state of being a immortal incorruptible spirit body Jesus preached to these spirits. Peter’s use of the past tense suggests that the preaching occurred before Peter wrote his first letter. It was sometime after his resurrection, Jesus made a proclamation to the wicked spirits regarding the fully justified punishment they are due to receive. It was not a preaching that held out any hope for them. It was a preaching of judgment. (Jonah 1:1, 2) Once Jesus had demonstrated his faith and loyalty to death and then was resurrected, proving that the Devil indeed had no hold on him, Jesus had the basis for making such a condemnatory proclamation.(John 14:30; 16:8-11)

The apostle Peter identifies these spirits as those who had “once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days.” (1 Peter 3:20) Peter was referring to spirit creatures who chose to join Satan’s rebellion. Jude mentions the angels who “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place,” saying that God “has reserved them with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”(Jude 6)

Well I can’t say you didn’t address it. I disagree with some of it but you did explain your view

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Jesus still teaches Truth in parables. The text clearly teaches two compartments in the grave and those in both are awake. Isaiah 14:1-11 indicates that they sleep like we do and are awake at times too.

Yeah I believe you honestly believe the fir trees can literally talk too right?
Isaiah 14:1-11 is a parable, a proverbial saying, Isaiah 14:4 tells us that.
Parables or a proverbial saying is poetic language which represents inanimate things as speaking. Like at Isaiah 14 Verse 8 furnishes a example: “Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.”(Compare Judges 9:8-15) so just as the fir trees are not literally speaking neither are those that are in Hades.

 

[The Learner]

What 1 Peter 3:19 is stating is, in the state of being a immortal incorruptible spirit body Jesus preached to these spirits. Peter’s use of the past tense suggests that the preaching occurred before Peter wrote his first letter. It was sometime after his resurrection, Jesus made a proclamation to the wicked spirits regarding the fully justified punishment they are due to receive. It was not a preaching that held out any hope for them. It was a preaching of judgment. (Jonah 1:1, 2) Once Jesus had demonstrated his faith and loyalty to death and then was resurrected, proving that the Devil indeed had no hold on him, Jesus had the basis for making such a condemnatory proclamation.(John 14:30; 16:8-11)

The apostle Peter identifies these spirits as those who had “once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days.” (1 Peter 3:20) Peter was referring to spirit creatures who chose to join Satan’s rebellion. Jude mentions the angels who “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place,” saying that God “has reserved them with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”(Jude 6)

Sorry friend, the context of 1 Peter 3:19, is clearly after his physical death and before his ressurrection.

 

[The Learner]

I understand that you honestly think that contradicting Genesis 2:7 and many other scriptures that say we are souls instead of having souls is what you call progressive teaching of the truth in scripture. I disagree, when it comes to progressive Bible truth, I don't believe any scripture contradicts another as you are doing, with your reasoning. Progressive Bible truth doesn't contradict another scripture in progressive truth in the scriptures. You're completely denying that God created man the way he said he did at Genesis 2:7, so you and I are going to disagree on that. Genesis 2:7 is completely accurate in how God created the human being when it says human beings are living souls.
The scripture at Genesis 2:7 doesn't have the word GAVE in that scripture, so if you or anyone reasons in any way on another scripture saying it teaches that the word BECAME doesn't belong in that scripture at Genesis 2:7 or is an inaccurate word in that scripture, which is what you're trying to do by saying that human beings have souls, you and I are going to be in disagreement. HUMAN BEINGS ARE LIVING SOULS. You can disagree with that, it's your right to disagree, but you're not convincing me you're staying within scripture, that you're teaching the truth from scripture. You're teaching what you believe to be the truth in scripture, I understand that. You and I as I said disagree.

Oh Well Friend

 

[The Learner]

Chapter 1. It is Not to the Philosophers that We Resort for Information About the Soul But to God.​

Chapter 2. The Christian Has Sure and Simple Knowledge Concerning the Subject Before Us​

Chapter 3. The Soul's Origin Defined Out of the Simple Words of Scripture​

Chapter 4. In Opposition to Plato, the Soul Was Created and Originated at Birth​

Chapter 7. The Soul's Corporeality Demonstrated Out of the Gospels​

Chapter 15. The Soul's Vitality and Intelligence. Its Character and Seat in Man​

Chapter 16. The Soul's Parts. Elements of the Rational Soul​

Chapter 25. Tertullian Refutes, Physiologically, the Notion that the Soul is Introduced After Birth​

Chapter 27. Soul and Body Conceived, Formed and Perfected in Element Simultaneously​

Chapter 30. Further Refutation of the Pythagorean Theory. The State of Contemporary Civilisation​

Chapter 34. These Vagaries Stimulated Some Profane Corruptions of Christianity. The Profanity of Simon Magus Condemned​

CHURCH FATHERS: A Treatise on the Soul (Tertullian)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

 

[The Learner]

NEW ADVENT: Search

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www.newadvent.org

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul

The question of the reality of the soul and its distinction from the body is among the most important problems of philosophy, for with it is bound up the doctrine of a future life

www.newadvent.org

 

[The Learner]

Yeah I believe you honestly believe the fir trees can literally talk too right?
Isaiah 14:1-11 is a parable, a proverbial saying, Isaiah 14:4 tells us that.
Parables or a proverbial saying is poetic language which represents inanimate things as speaking. Like at Isaiah 14 Verse 8 furnishes a example: “Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.”(Compare Judges 9:8-15) so just as the fir trees are not literally speaking neither are those that are in Hades.

No Jewish Rabbi, I know would agree with you that Isaiah 14:1-11 is a parable, and having trained to be a Rabbi, neither do I.

 

[The Learner]

Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.

A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:

The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.

 

[The Learner]

A parable is an allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach a truth.

"A parable is, literally, something “cast alongside” something else. Jesus’ parables were stories that were “cast alongside” a truth in order to illustrate that truth. His parables were teaching aids and can be thought of as extended analogies or inspired comparisons. A common description of a parable is that it is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning."

What is a parable? | GotQuestions.org

What is a parable? Why did Jesus often teach in parables? What is the purpose of teaching using parables?

www.gotquestions.org

"Have you ever had a conversation with someone who was unable to see what seemed so obvious to you? This can be a frustrating experience. One way to open their eyes is to offer them a chance to accept an idea and THEN apply it to the current situation; you might hold out a different example to help them see what you see. This is what Jesus does in his parables."

Parables Of Truth

diocesan.com

 

[The Learner]

Why Did Jesus Teach in Parables? Jesus' Surprising Answer - Christ and Culture

Why did Jesus teach in parables? Christ's answer about His use of parables is both surprising and instructive. Find the surprising answer!

cfc.sebts.edu

CHURCH FATHERS: Home

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

Does Using a Proper Name Turn a Parable Into a True Story?
The argument I have heard Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and others, use to justify that the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a parable is that parables don’t use real names. In a previous post (see Is “The Rich Man and Lazarus” a Parable?) I showed from the book of Matthew when and why Jesus began using parables. The Matthew passage is clear and can be objectively interpreted. The idea that a Jewish parable never uses a proper name seems to me to be an idea that is imported into the text and a violation of the Grammatico-Historical Method of interpreting scripture.
...
Here the characters are just as distinct as in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. And we apply the rule here, and take it out of the list of parables. It becomes a real circumstance, or that rule is not worth a pinch of dust. But the Lord calls it a parable, and so do we.

 

[The Learner]

II. Principles for Interpreting Parables

A. Understand the historical setting of the parable. Perhaps even more than any other literature type in the Bible, understanding the historical setting of parables is crucial. Remember that Jesus used illustrations from everyday life that people back then would have immediately understood. If we do not understand their historical background, then we cannot fully grasp the meanings of the parables.

“A fishing net, a vineyard, a wedding banquet, oil lamps, talents of money, a fig tree still barren after three years, the value of a single coin to a housewife, the people’s despicable attitude toward tax collectors, the meaning of pounds or minas—understanding these elements sheds light on the significance of the parables and helps make the right transition to the spiritual truth” (Zuck, 211).

B. Examine to see if there is a specific question, problem, need, or situation that is the basis for the parable.

1. In Matthew 9:14, the disciples of John ask, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but your disciples do not fast?” Jesus then gives the Parable of the Bridegroom to show that fasting is not necessary while Jesus is on earth with His disciples. He also gives the parables of the old garment and new wineskins to show that He has introduced a new era in God’s plan.

2. Jesus told the parable of the Unjust Judge to tell his disciples that they should always pray and never give up (18:1).

3. When Jesus was criticized for associating with a sinful woman, He gave the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:40–43).

4. “Several times Jesus gave an exhortation or principle and then followed it with a parable to illustrate or illumine the point just made. For example Mark13:33 records that Jesus said, ‘Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when the time will come.’ Then He gave the Parable of the Doorkeeper (vv. 34–37)” (Zuck, 213).

C. Determine how much of the parable is explained in the text. For example, in Matthew 13:3–9 Jesus gave the Parable of the Sower and then gave his explanation of the parable in 13:18–23. Likewise, in 13:24–30, Jesus explains the Parable of the Wheat and Tares and then explains this parable in 13:36–43).

D. Take note that not every detail in a parable has special significance. Show discernment in knowing which parts of the parable are crucial to the point of the parable and those parts which function as window dressing. For example, in the Parable of the Good Samaritan the priest, the Levite, and the Samaritan all have special significance, but the road, the innkeeper, and the two denarii function as supporting details for the main point.

Avoid what the church father Origen did when he claimed that the man who was beaten was Adam, the robbers were the devil and his demons, the priest was the Law, the Levites were the prophets, the Good Samaritan was Christ, the beast was Christ’s body, the inn was the church, and the two denarii were the Father and the Son.

E. Look for the main point of a parable. Most parables are driving home one overarching truth or principle although there may be exceptions at times.

 

[The Learner]

Jesus spoke this man’s name. Thus, it was not a parable but an actual account. – A Carpenter's View

Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or an account of events that actually occurred? | GotQuestions.org

Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or an account of events that actually occurred? If Luke 16:19-31 is a description of an incident that happened, doesn’t it contradict other Scriptures?

www.gotquestions.org

Is the Rich Man and Lazarus a Parable?

Look again at the context, characters, and consequences of this classic story.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Bible Parables - How To Recognize Them | Jesus Without Religion

Learn how to easily tell the difference in a bible parable from an actual historical event that happened in the old or new testament.

jesuswithoutreligion.com

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

 

[The Learner]

Isaiah 14

Easy-to-Read Version

​

Israel Will Return Home​

14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.

A Song About the King of Babylon​

4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:
The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.

A Song is not a parable!!!!

 

[The Learner]

taunt-song or Mocking is best understanding of the Hebrew

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No Jewish Rabbi, I know would agree with you that Isaiah 14:1-11 is a parable, and having trained to be a Rabbi, neither do I.

Well like I said you go ahead and believe that the fir trees are literally speaking intelligent words but you won't convince me that the fir tress are literally speaking intelligent words. You may believe something like that but I know better to believe something like that. Its a proverbial saying, what you or any other person believes isn't going to convince me that fir trees can literally speak intelligent words nor are they literally doing so in Isaiah 14:1-11. So I don't believe the souls in Hades are literally speaking either.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Chapter 1. It is Not to the Philosophers that We Resort for Information About the Soul But to God.​

Chapter 2. The Christian Has Sure and Simple Knowledge Concerning the Subject Before Us​

Chapter 3. The Soul's Origin Defined Out of the Simple Words of Scripture​

Chapter 4. In Opposition to Plato, the Soul Was Created and Originated at Birth​

Chapter 7. The Soul's Corporeality Demonstrated Out of the Gospels​

Chapter 15. The Soul's Vitality and Intelligence. Its Character and Seat in Man​

Chapter 16. The Soul's Parts. Elements of the Rational Soul​

Chapter 25. Tertullian Refutes, Physiologically, the Notion that the Soul is Introduced After Birth​

Chapter 27. Soul and Body Conceived, Formed and Perfected in Element Simultaneously​

Chapter 30. Further Refutation of the Pythagorean Theory. The State of Contemporary Civilisation​

Chapter 34. These Vagaries Stimulated Some Profane Corruptions of Christianity. The Profanity of Simon Magus Condemned​

CHURCH FATHERS: A Treatise on the Soul (Tertullian)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

The simple truth in scripture is that human beings are souls, they don't have souls.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Sorry friend, the context of 1 Peter 3:19, is clearly after his physical death and before his ressurrection.

You believe what you want but I'm going to believe the scriptures that say Jesus was dead, not living, for parts of three days. You want to deny he was dead for parts of three days, that's your choice. When he was resurrected, he was resurrected with a immortal incorruptible spirit body and it was in that state he went and preached to the spirits.