Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[Chadrho]

But that's not true! We want what God wants, and His desire is "that all men come to the knowledge of the truth

I don't want to derail this thread. I'll just say that God must not be all powerful if God can't bring about what God wants. I disagree with your assertion that there is no foundation for UR. Christ is the foundation for he has already overcome the world.

What do you call your position if "damnationist" is offensive to you?

 

[Charlie24]

I don't want to derail this thread. I'll just say that God must not be all powerful if God can't bring about what God wants. I disagree with your assertion that there is no foundation for UR. Christ is the foundation for he has already overcome the world.

What do you call your position if "damnationist" is offensive to you?

So if you believe that God has placed in His Word that He will lift that Judgment on man, then present your Scripture for it and let's see if it holds water.

The title "damnationist" is not offensive to me, i think it's silly!

 

[Chadrho]

So if you believe that God has placed in His Word that He will lift that Judgment on man, then present your Scripture for it and let's see if it holds water.

The title "damnationist" is not offensive to me, i think it's silly!

I didn't say anything about lifting judgment; you did. We will all be judged. We will all enter the unquenchable fire of God's love. Some will experience that as an age of life and others an age of punishment, but once all things have been subjected to Christ, God will be all in all. God is the savior of all humanity, especially of those who believe. God has given authority over all flesh to Christ to give eternal life to all he has been given. So, we will all be salted with fire to the end that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

According to your position, all will never become subject to Christ, and God will never be all in all because God will ensure that evil and sin never end but are perpetuated eternally. Although God created all that is, ex nihilo, and created all that is as good, God will make certain evil is never defeated but persists forever along with the good. It's a twisted form of Manicheism, thanks to Augustine who tried so hard to get away from it. Although there was a time when evil and sin did not exist, God will make sure that once evil and sin enter creation through the will of finite creatures, evil and sin will last as long as God does. Can such a God be good and all-powerful? It's hard to see how.

 

[Charlie24]

I didn't say anything about lifting judgment; you did. We will all be judged. We will all enter the unquenchable fire of God's love. Some will experience that as an age of life and others an age of punishment, but once all things have been subjected to Christ, God will be all in all. God is the savior of all humanity, especially of those who believe. God has given authority over all flesh to Christ to give eternal life to all he has been given. So, we will all be salted with fire to the end that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

According to your position, all will never become subject to Christ, and God will never be all in all because God will ensure that evil and sin never end but are perpetuated eternally. Although God created all that is, ex nihilo, and created all that is as good, God will make certain evil is never defeated but persists forever along with the good. It's a twisted form of Manicheism, thanks to Augustine who tried so hard to get away from it. Although there was a time when evil and sin did not exist, God will make sure that once evil and sin enter creation through the will of finite creatures, evil and sin will last as long as God does. Can such a God be good and all-powerful? It's hard to see how.

The UR states that the "everlasting" translates to an "age" that comes to an end. The translation plainly states that "everlasting" referring to an "age" can be translated as an age coming to an end, or an age into infinity, depending on the context. We can go to the Greek to confirm this if necessary.

What does "that God may be all in all" mean"

1 Cor. 15:28

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

The UR conveniently will not mention the context of 1 Cor 15., that's because Paul is speaking of the resurrection. Paul is arguing the statement made by some, that there is no resurrection of man.

The Scripture makes it clear that Christ is "sitting at the right hand of God until I (God) make your enemies thy footstool. Matt/ 22:44.

This is why Paul tells the Corinthians that God cannot become the "all in all" until the resurrection. Then "all things will be subdued unto Him" (Christ) that God may be "all in all." In other words, Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father right now, waiting for the Father to make His (Christ) enemies His (Christs') footstool.

This takes place at the resurrection, when all things are brought to Christs' power, which makes the Father "the all in all" of all things.

 

[Chadrho]

The UR states that the "everlasting" translates to an "age" that comes to an end. The translation plainly states that "everlasting" referring to an "age" can be translated as an age coming to an end, or an age into infinity, depending on the context. We can go to the Greek to confirm this if necessary.

What does "that God may be all in all" mean"

1 Cor. 15:28

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

The UR conveniently will not mention the context of 1 Cor 15., that's because Paul is speaking of the resurrection. Paul is arguing the statement made by some, that there is no resurrection of man.

The Scripture makes it clear that Christ is "sitting at the right hand of God until I (God) make your enemies thy footstool. Matt/ 22:44.

This is why Paul tells the Corinthians that God cannot become the "all in all" until the resurrection. Then "all things will be subdued unto Him" (Christ) that God may be "all in all." In other words, Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father right now, waiting for the Father to make His (Christ) enemies His (Christs') footstool.

This takes place at the resurrection, when all things are brought to Christs' power, which makes the Father "the all in all" of all things.

There's no use in debating interpretations of scripture. We will not agree. You believe God cannot defeat sin and evil. I believe God can and will. At the end of the day, your conception of God is one that desires what will not be, i.e., the salvation of all. My conception of God is one that desires the complete elimination of sin and evil and will do so. You believe God created creatures that God cannot save. I believe all that God created will be restored. You will never convince me that God is weak and cannot succeed in what God desires. You will never convince me that God's love is in vain and Christ's death and resurrection are insufficient. Why would I believe in your conception of God? You think your interpretation is obvious. I do not. What else is there to discuss? My God wins. Your God loses. There's simply no comparison. It would be like selling a pearl to buy an empty field.

 

[Charlie24]

There's no use in debating interpretations of scripture. We will not agree. You believe God cannot defeat sin and evil. I believe God can and will. At the end of the day, your conception of God is one that desires what will not be, i.e., the salvation of all. My conception of God is one that desires the complete elimination of sin and evil and will do so. You believe God created creatures that God cannot save. I believe all that God created will be restored. You will never convince me that God is weak and cannot succeed in what God desires. You will never convince me that God's love is in vain and Christ's death and resurrection are insufficient. Why would I believe in your conception of God? You think your interpretation is obvious. I do not. What else is there to discuss? My God wins. Your God loses. There's simply no comparison. It would be like selling a pearl to buy an empty field.

God will save anyone who wants to be saved.

Rom. 10:13
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

The problem is, and what the UR will not admit is that some men refuse to be saved for whatever reasons.

God can't save anyone against their will, neither does He want to.

So in the end, man chooses his own way and God respects that.

He wants to be your Saviour today, if not, He will be your Judge tomorrow!

 

[Chadrho]

God will save anyone who wants to be saved.

Rom. 10:13
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

The problem is, and what the UR will not admit is that some men refuse to be saved for whatever reasons.

God can't save anyone against their will, neither does He want to.

So in the end, man chooses his own way and God respects that.

He wants to be your Saviour today, if not, He will be your Judge tomorrow!

*yawn*

No one would willing choose eternal torment. Come on, you have to do better than that if you hope to convince anyone your position makes sense.

 

[Charlie24]

*yawn*

No one would willing choose eternal torment. Come on, you have to do better than that if you hope to convince anyone your position makes sense.

Don't you think it's time for the UR to come up with the Scripture that proves the doomed are let of the Lake of Fire?

The Scripture plainly places them in, so where is the Scripture that shows they get out?

Until you can do that, I'll stick with sound doctrine, not this wishful thinking!

 

[Chadrho]

The Scripture plainly places them in, so where is the Scripture that shows they get out?

The gates to the heavenly city are never closed. Look, this "the Scriptures plainly" state anything is nonsense. Christians all over disagree over what is "plainly " stated. In the early church, there were many, according to Augustine, who rejected eternal torment, and they were reading the same Scriptures as he. Moreover, we know many orthodox figures who rejected it, so try and have some doxastic humility and accept you have embraced an interpretation, as I have. If we can do that, then it is possible for us to have a fruitful discussion. This hand waving my position because you think you're in "the know" won't work. I'll be generous with you if you'll discuss this accepting the there is ambiguity in the Scriptures regarding this issue. If you can't do that, we're done.

 

[Charlie24]

The gates to the heavenly city are never closed. Look, this "the Scriptures plainly" state anything is nonsense. Christians all over disagree over what is "plainly " stated. In the early church, there were many, according to Augustine, who rejected eternal torment, and they were reading the same Scriptures as he. Moreover, we know many orthodox figures who rejected it, so try and have some doxastic humility and accept you have embraced an interpretation, as I have. If we can do that, then it is possible for us to have a fruitful discussion. This hand waving my position because you think you're in "the know" won't work. I'll be generous with you if you'll discuss this accepting the there is ambiguity in the Scriptures regarding this issue. If you can't do that, we're done.

Throughout the past 20 centuries the UR has kept bringing back this heresy, and time after time the Church has voted it out.

It's time for the UR to put the Scripture where their mouth is, but wait, they can't do that!

 

[Chadrho]

Throughout the past 20 centuries the UR has kept bringing back this heresy, and time after time the Church has voted it out.

It's time for the UR to put the Scripture where their mouth is, but wait, they can't do that!

Okay, if you didn't recognize the numerous passages I used in my initial response to you, then you don't know the scriptures. Go back and read post #163.

This will be my last response. I appreciate your attempt at fruitful dialogue. Maybe we can revisit the subject one day. Be well and may the peace of Christ go with you.

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you mean? By inclusive or exclusive?

Open or closed.
Is the intent to offer something to enhance the Body of Christ, or to declare that your group (tribe) IS the Body of Christ. (no one else)

 

[St. SteVen]

Steven, are you angry with God that He has declared judgement on man, and you disagree with that judgement?

No, I'm not angry at God, I'm angry with the church that has misrepresented Him.
Restoration is needed, no doubt. Restoration, healing, mercy, correction, and redemption.

Charlie, are you okay with the church that has represented God as a cosmic tyrant?
You hoped we were right. What does that tell you?

 

[quietthinker]

The judgment will be based on the amount of light man had in the time period in which he lived.

so, works?

 

[Charlie24]

Okay, if you didn't recognize the numerous passages I used in my initial response to you, then you don't know the scriptures. Go back and read post #163.

This will be my last response. I appreciate your attempt at fruitful dialogue. Maybe we can revisit the subject one day. Be well and may the peace of Christ go with you.

Although I strongly disagree with your perception of Scripture, I did enjoy having conversation with a gentleman.

That is rare and I will take to note your self control, and will look forward to having conversation on other subjects in the future.

 

[Charlie24]

No, I'm not angry at God, I'm angry with the church that has misrepresented Him.
Restoration is needed, no doubt. Restoration, healing, mercy, correction, and redemption.

Charlie, are you okay with the church that has represented God as a cosmic tyrant?
You hoped we were right. What does that tell you?

The Church doesn't represent God as a tyrant, that would be the UR!

God is serious about giving up His Son to such cruelty and man ignoring it.

 

[Charlie24]

so, works?

No, definitely not! The Light that has been slowly revealed to man since the beginning is the sacrifice of Christ for the sins of man.

As I discussed earlier, that Light could only be seen through the sacrifice of an animal which represented Christ. It took time for God send Christ, the preparation of Israel to receive Him. Sin was committed by man, which necessitated that Christ would have to pay the sin debt as a man. the reason for the incarnation.

Salvation has always been the same from the beginning of Adam and Eve to this very day. Faith in the the Messiah, what His sacrifice would do for man.

The Old Testament saints looked forward to His coming through the animal sacrifice, we look back at His sacrifice which is now a reality.

 

[quietthinker]

Because of the absence of light, God withheld Judgment in those times. But now that Christ has come, and the light has increased to man, God has set the time of His judgment. The judgment will be based on the amount of light man had in the time period in which he lived.

Could it be that when it comes to judgement it is us judging God? Judging whether he is worthy of our allegiance ......because as I see it, the text 'for God SO loved the World he gave his only Son......' tells me that God's judgement is in our favour

 

[quietthinker]

No, definitely not! The Light that has been slowly revealed to man since the beginning is the sacrifice of Christ for the sins of man.

As I discussed earlier, that Light could only be seen through the sacrifice of an animal which represented Christ. It took time for God send Christ, the preparation of Israel to receive Him. Sin was committed by man, which necessitated that Christ would have to pay the sin debt as a man. the reason for the incarnation.

Salvation has always been the same from the beginning of Adam and Eve to this very day. Faith in the the Messiah, what His sacrifice would do for man.

The Old Testament saints looked forward to His coming through the animal sacrifice, we look back at His sacrifice which is now a reality.

The whole killing thing, whether it be animals or man in order for God to forgive doesn't sit comfortably with me.
I can forgive without a payment so surely God can.
I think the incarnation is a statement of God's love for the world.....and we murdered him.......and he knew we would but he came anyway.

 

[Charlie24]

Could it be that when it comes to judgement it is us judging God? Judging whether he is worthy of our allegiance ......because as I see it, the text 'for God SO loved the World he gave his only Son......' tells me that God's judgement is in our favour

We will judge angels and I believe a host of many things. If we judge anything about God, it will be His Mercy and Grace, and the Love that He has bestowed upon us.