who is the false prophet in revelation

[FaithWillDo]

The words "Age of God's Grace" is based on the assumption that the victory over death, by the sacrificial and shed blood of Jesus, is the only form of atonement that is acceptable to the Father for the forgiveness of sin.
Therefore, in the Day of Jesus' visible return from Heaven, the time for forgiveness of sin will have ended. John 3:16
Because the time shall come, when men will no longer repent towards God through faith in Jesus, it is at that time that Jesus shall be sent by the Father on His return trip, to redeem/resurrect/change all of His Saints into the likeness of Jesus' immortality, both those who have been dead, and those who are alive in that day. All others shall be destroyed, as if they had never been born.

Dear Earburner,
You said:
The words "Age of God's Grace" is based on the assumption that the victory over death, by the sacrificial and shed blood of Jesus, is the only form of atonement that is acceptable to the Father for the forgiveness of sin.

Yes, a blood sacrifice is the only acceptable way to forgive sins.

However, the term "age of God's Grace" is not in scripture and is not even implied. Someone who doesn't understand the truth of scripture has taught you this falsehood.

You said:
Therefore, in the Day of Jesus' visible return from Heaven, the time for forgiveness of sin will have ended. John 3:16

Again, there are no scriptures which teach this belief. John 3:16 certainly doesn't teach it.

This is what scripture teaches:

Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;

The nature and character of Christ never changes. He will always love His enemies and have mercy upon them. There is no time limit on the Grace of God.

In this age, Christ is only coming to and saving those people who were chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the First Fruits. No one else will be saved in this age. Their salvation will come at the end of the final age when Christ brings in the full harvest.

Don't confuse the First Fruits of the harvest as being the only ones who Christ will harvest. Christ is not going to leave most of mankind in the field to rot.

You said:
Because the time shall come, when men will no longer repent towards God through faith in Jesus...

Again, this is not true and is clearly contradicted by scripture.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The penalty of sin is death. However, since Christ loves us all, He is not willing that any should perish and that all mankind come to repentance.

If Christ is not willing for anyone to perish, who can stop Him from saving us all?

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Mankind's "will" is NOTHING for Christ to overcome.

However, believers who have the spirit of anti-Christ within them think that mankind can stop Christ from accomplishing all that He has said He would do. Those believers have no faith, none at all.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

These fallen away believers say that mankind's supposed "free will" is too powerful for Christ to overcome or that some people are just too evil to save. These beliefs are lies from Satan. These fallen away believers have become a Man of Sin who sits in God's Temple and claims to be God. They are suffering from the "strong delusion" (2Thes 2:11). Christ has not "appeared" to these believers and they are not converted.

However, when Christ is ready to save these fallen away believers, Christ will come to them and give them the free gift of the Holy Spirit - if He doesn't come to them in this age, He will in the next age. With the free gift of the Holy Spirit within them, they will repent and call Jesus "Lord" - they can do nothing else:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe this scripture below?

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

From what you has stated, I'm sure you do not believe this scripture. Where is your faith to believe Christ?

You said:
All others shall be destroyed, as if they had never been born.

Again, this is not taught in scripture. You are making Christ out to be a monster who hates and kills His enemies. This belief is heresy and it is a lie taught by the ministers of Satan.

Here is what scripture teaches:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Col 1:19 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Why do you not believe these verses? Have you never read them before or do you just believe Christ is just to weak or unloving to save everyone?

If you are receiving your "truth" from outside of scripture, you are never going to find the truth of Christ.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

As for Luke 17:28-29, it is teaching on the Day of the Lord which immediately follows the Marriage Supper of the Lord. See Revelation chapter 19. The destruction of Sodom is a "type" which teaches the destruction of a believer's worsened carnal nature (the Great Harlot).

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this verse.ealed

The Apostle Paul gives a a good description of what shall take place when the Lord is revealed from Heaven.
2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


It is a simultaneous event of redemption for His Saints, and destruction of all who do not have the Spirit of Christ. Luke 17:28-30, Rom. 8:8-9

 

[FaithWillDo]

The Apostle Paul gives a a good description of what shall take place when the Lord is revealed from Heaven.
2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


It is a simultaneous event of redemption for His Saints, and destruction of all who do not have the Spirit of Christ. Luke 17:28-30, Rom. 8:8-9

Dear Earburner,
Paul is teaching about the conversion process of a fallen away believer. It happens when Christ is "revealed from Heaven" within a believer (Latter Rain event). When Christ is revealed, judgment falls on the natural man who has been made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

At that time, the child of God is born and gathered together to dwell with Christ in heaven (spiritually speaking). This is when a believer is glorified.

After a believer is converted, they will enter Christ's "rest" which Paul is presently experiencing (v. 7).

You're understanding scripture in a carnal way and not in a spiritual way.

Don't you realize that those who live by the Sword, must die by the Sword?

Do you understand what dying by the Sword means?

Those who receive the Early Rain of the Spirit have taken up the Word of God (Sword, Christ) but to be saved, they must die by the Word of God (Sword, Christ). This is conversion.

This verse, too:

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

The natural man is condemned already because he has sinned. But from that death, Christ will give us a new life as a child of God. Again, this is conversion.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Again, this verse above is teaching about conversion.

And this one, too:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Christ is going to destroy the natural man (old vessel) and make us into the New Man (New Vessel). He does this because of His grace and not because of ANYTHING that mankind might do (no works required).

All the death and destruction which occurs because of judgment is a necessary part of conversion. And since all mankind is going to be converted, all mankind must spiritually die.

Do you believe this?

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Paul is teaching about the conversion process of a fallen away believer. It happens when Christ is "revealed from Heaven" within a believer (Latter Rain event). When Christ is revealed, judgment falls on the natural man who has been made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

At that time, the child of God is born and gathered together to dwell with Christ in heaven (spiritually speaking). This is when a believer is glorified.

Yes, the born experience now, of being risen with Christ, is for those who do what Jesus calls us to do. It is stage one of the two stages, in the process of salvation and redemption. Rev. 3:20 is the act of conversion of being made into a NEW creature, having only the Gift of eternal life.
However, stage two has not happened yet.

None, except for Jesus, has the Gift of His Eternal Life AND immortality.
Through faith in Jesus, by being born again, in receiving His Holy Spirit, we HAVE the gift of eternal life spiritually ONLY, as we dwell in this mortal flesh. We have not recieved immortality yet. 1 John 5:12-13.
That is all that born again Christians are waiting for, the Gift of His immortality, of which will be freely given, upon the day of His visible return.
1 Cor. 15
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We [born again Christians] shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
Paul is teaching about the conversion process of a fallen away believer. It happens when Christ is "revealed from Heaven" within a believer (Latter Rain event). When Christ is revealed, judgment falls on the natural man who has been made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

At that time, the child of God is born and gathered together to dwell with Christ in heaven (spiritually speaking). This is when a believer is glorified.

After a believer is converted, they will enter Christ's "rest" which Paul is presently experiencing (v. 7).

You're understanding scripture in a carnal way and not in a spiritual way.

Don't you realize that those who live by the Sword, must die by the Sword?

Do you understand what dying by the Sword means?

Those who receive the Early Rain of the Spirit have taken up the Word of God (Sword, Christ) but to be saved, they must die by the Word of God (Sword, Christ). This is conversion.

This verse, too:

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

The natural man is condemned already because he has sinned. But from that death, Christ will give us a new life as a child of God. Again, this is conversion.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Again, this verse above is teaching about conversion.

And this one, too:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Christ is going to destroy the natural man (old vessel) and make us into the New Man (New Vessel). He does this because of His grace and not because of ANYTHING that mankind might do (no works required).

All the death and destruction which occurs because of judgment is a necessary part of conversion. And since all mankind is going to be converted, all mankind must spiritually die.

Do you believe this?

Joe

I already believe much of what you are saying, but I do not believe that all of mankind will be saved. Rom. 8:8-9.
When we were created, we were created with free will. Even after our conversion of being born again, while still in this body of death, we still have free will.

 

[Earburner]

Paul is teaching about the conversion process of a fallen away believer. It happens when Christ is "revealed from Heaven" within a believer (Latter Rain event). When Christ is revealed, judgment falls on the natural man who has been made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

Mat. 12:43-45 is speaking to/about the house of Israel and no other people.

Unfortunately, through your belief system, you are ignoring the three manifestations of Jesus' coming to mankind.
1. Past: in mortal flesh to Israel only. Mat. 15:24, Mat. 23:37-39.
2. Present- by His Holy Spirit to all the world. Acts 2:16-18, Rev. 3:20
3. Future- in Immortality to redeem all who are His, and to destroy all who are none of His. Rom. 8:8-9. 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

All the above scriptures are in your Bible, but for some reason you either have not read them, or you discount them to mean something else.

In my opinion, "church-ianity" prefers to ignore and disregard item #2 to a large extent, thereby causing all within it to become apostate, trading it off for the traditions and the doctrines of men.
1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [stand] in the power of God.

Though you speak of "the age to come", you are extremely unware that we all are now in item #2, being that of the age of His Grace, of which will "suddenly" come to an end through item #3.
2 Pet. 3:7-13.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes, the born experience now, of being risen with Christ, is for those who do what Jesus calls us to do. It is stage one of the two stages, in the process of salvation and redemption. Rev. 3:20 is the act of conversion of being made into a NEW creature, having only the Gift of eternal life.
However, stage two has not happened yet.

None, except for Jesus, has the Gift of His Eternal Life AND immortality.
Through faith in Jesus, by being born again, in receiving His Holy Spirit, we HAVE the gift of eternal life spiritually ONLY, as we dwell in this mortal flesh. We have not recieved immortality yet. 1 John 5:12-13.
That is all that born again Christians are waiting for, the Gift of His immortality, of which will be freely given, upon the day of His visible return.
1 Cor. 15
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We [born again Christians] shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Dear Earburner,
Yes, all that remains for a converted believer is to be given a new spiritual body which will never die.

I don't understand how this relates to our discussion.
Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I already believe much of what you are saying, but I do not believe that all of mankind will be saved. Rom. 8:8-9.
When we were created, we were created with free will. Even after our conversion of being born again, while still in this body of death, we still have free will.

Dear Earburner,
Mankind does NOT have a "free will". There are ZERO scriptures which teach this lie.

Consider what scripture actually teaches:

Joshua 24:15 Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve....

It is clear from this verse that mankind has the ability to choose. But having the ability to choose DOES NOT mean that a person has a FREE WILL ability to choose.

Here is the definition of FREE WILL: The power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints.

Scripture teaches that mankind’s “will” definitely has divine restraints and is not free:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, what doest thou?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The verses above ALL teach that there are divine restraints on mankind's "will" and ability to choose. There are NO VERSES that state differently.

ONLY GOD THE FATHER HAS A FREE WILL ABILITY, MANKIND DOES NOT.

If we claim this free will ability for ourselves, we are making ourselves out to be God:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The MAN OF SIN is a spiritual symbol for all fallen away Christians. All called out Christians experience this “worse than the first” spiritual condition (Mat 12:43-45) shortly after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is the work of Christ within an unbeliever when He gives them an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit and calls them out from the world. However, shortly after they have entered the church, the believer will fall away because they remained carnally minded and spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain. Because of these deficiencies, Christ (who is the Truth) is veiled from their understanding. At this time, the believer is deceived by Satan. After Satan's deceptions run their course, the called out believer will spiritually become worse than the first and they will turn to a works- based belief system (religion) for salvation. This system is what our carnal nature prefers:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

Because of our carnal nature’s preference, the new believer will readily accept Satan’s leavened bread (Mat 13:33). This is the false truth which comes from the light of this world (sun/moon). It is not the true bread/light which comes from heaven.

Coming out from religion is vitally important because salvation only comes to us by the New Covenant of Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation cannot come to us by our own works or a mixing of our works with faith. Our faith must be solely based on Christ and His spiritual works.

Because we must come out from religion to be saved, it necessitates that Christ come to us a second time. This second coming event is when Christ gives a chosen believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit (also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit). When Christ comes to His Elect with this gift, He will heal their spiritual blindness and appear to them. With the Latter Rain, the believer is born again.

The judgment of the Day of the Lord will then immediately follow the gift of the Holy Spirit. This judgment comes from God’s Word when its truth is revealed to the believer. From its “brightness”, the Man of Sin who practices religion (2Thes 2:8) is destroyed. It is at this point that the believer will enter into the rest of Christ and will cease trying to be acceptable to Christ by their own works.

Mankind lives and makes choices ALL by the will and work of God. Understanding and believing this truth requires FAITH because mankind has no ability to observe the spiritual work of God which He does within us.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Mankind is blinded from seeing (understanding) God by our carnal nature. It is this foundation of spiritual blindness that gives support to the false Doctrine of Free Will.

Even Christ does not have a "free will":

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Mankind is no different.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Where is mankind's supposed "free will" in the verse above? It is not there.

When a believer has been deceived by the Doctrine of Free Will, that deception will cause them to have a "works" based belief system. This system is from Satan and is "of this world". A believer who approaches Christ with this "works" based system is not saved and has become a Man of Sin. They have not received the Latter Rain, nor have they been converted.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Mat. 12:43-45 is speaking to/about the house of Israel and no other people.

Unfortunately, through your belief system, you are ignoring the three manifestations of Jesus' coming to mankind.
1. Past: in mortal flesh to Israel only. Mat. 15:24, Mat. 23:37-39.
2. Present- by His Holy Spirit to all the world. Acts 2:16-18, Rev. 3:20
3. Future- in Immortality to redeem all who are His, and to destroy all who are none of His. Rom. 8:8-9. 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

All the above scriptures are in your Bible, but for some reason you either have not read them, or you discount them to mean something else.

In my opinion, "church-ianity" prefers to ignore and disregard item #2 to a large extent, thereby causing all within it to become apostate, trading it off for the traditions and the doctrines of men.
1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [stand] in the power of God.

Though you speak of "the age to come", you are extremely unware that we all are now in item #2, being that of the age of His Grace, of which will "suddenly" come to an end through item #3.
2 Pet. 3:7-13.

Dear Earburner,
Much of what you said in this post is not true and is not in scripture. It has been taught to you by spiritually blind men.

There is no "age of Grace". Show me the scriptures if you have any. Show me the verses that say Christ's love and mercy have an end.

The false teaching of the "age of Grace" contradicts the very nature and character of God. Can't you see that?

Also, Mat 12:43-45 is a teaching which applies to the church (all believers who are "called out").

When the one unclean spirit leaves the new believer, it comes back with SEVEN more (spirit of anti-Christ) because the believer has not replaced their false beliefs of this world with the truth of Christ. It is not possible for them to replace them at this point. Why? Because the Early Rain is ONLY a down payment of the full amount (Latter Rain). Because the Early Rain is only given in "measure", the new believer remains carnally minded and spiritually blind. They are easy prey for Satan and that is why ALL called out believers "fall away" and become a Man of Sin. This is part of the Pathway to Salvation that the Elect must travel to be saved.

Salvation only comes with the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
Yes, all that remains for a converted believer is to be given a new spiritual body which will never die.

I don't understand how this relates to our discussion.
Joe

It relates to your concept that all humanity, both the converted and the unconverted shall be saved, whether they want it or not.

God never knocks down the door of our free will (the heart of our being), but instead waits patiently outside knocking, hoping for us to open the door, that He may enter into us.
In the day of our mortal death, the Lord can no longer knock upon our door.
Today, while we still have breath, is the day of our salvation. Therefore, either we will answer the door for our conversion, or we will not. And of course, all who do not, will suffer the results of 2 Thes. 1:8-9, Rom. 8:9 due to there own neglect.
Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[Earburner]

If we claim this free will ability for ourselves, we are making ourselves out to be God:

And what was it that Jesus said about that?
John 10:3-35,
[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Yes! Indeed we are gods, by which "that spirit of antichrist" operates, being seated in the temple of God (made by and for God), our mortal bodies, showing itself as God.

 

[FaithWillDo]

It relates to your concept that all humanity, both the converted and the unconverted shall be saved, whether they want it or not.

God never knocks down the door of our free will (the heart of our being), but instead waits patiently outside knocking, hoping for us to open the door, that He may enter into us.
In the day of our mortal death, the Lord can no longer knock upon our door.
Today, while we still have breath, is the day of our salvation. Therefore, either we will answer the door for our conversion, or we will not. And of course, all who do not, will suffer the results of 2 Thes. 1:8-9, due to there own neglect.
Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Dear Earburner,
None of what you stated is true. You are understanding scripture "carnally" and not spiritually.

God's "will" rules supreme within His creation. He has repeatedly stated that He loves all mankind and that He will saved all mankind. I have posted many verses which state this truth. However, you seem to have no ability to believe them at this time.

Mankind is only saved because it is God's "will" to saved us.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

Mankind, in our created state, is carnally minded and hates God. In this state, we cannot understand Him nor can we seek Him out.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God.

No amount of supposed "free will" ability can change what these two verses above say about mankind. Mankind is totally and completely at the mercy of Christ to come and save us. Mankind has no ability to contribute anything towards our own salvation, "lest any man should boast". In this spiritual condition, no man can made a confession of faith or call Jesus "Lord".

The only solution is for Christ to come to each of us and change us from "within".

When Christ comes to an unbeliever, He does not ask their permission to give them the Spirit nor can they reject His gift.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

It is only AFTER Christ has given a person the Holy Spirit can anyone call Jesus "Lord". And with the Holy Spirit, no man can reject Christ.

Paul is a "type" for how Christ gives a person the Holy Spirit.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul was on his way to persecute the church in Damascus when Christ suddenly came to Paul. Christ gave Paul the Early Rain and Paul immediately fell to the earth and called Jesus "Lord". Three days later in Damascus, Paul was given the Latter Rain and was converted. Only then was Paul able to eat "meat". This is the only way a person's confession of faith happens. Mankind's "will" plays no part in it. If it did, our salvation would include man's "works" and we would have something to boast about.

Christ has promised to make this change within all mankind, but "every man in his own order".

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then comes the consummation, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

All mankind has died "in Adam" and this same "all" will be made alive "in Christ". Who can this possibly leave out?

After Christ has delivered up the Kingdom of Heaven which will contain 100% of mankind, God will be "all in all" and this verse below will be TESTIFIED to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Do you have enough faith to believe that Christ can actually do all that He has said He will do?

Or will you continue to believe the teachings of man over the teachings of Christ?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

And what was it that Jesus said about that?
John 10:3-35,
[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Yes! Indeed we are gods, by which "that spirit of antichrist" operates, being seated in the temple of God (made by and for God), our mortal bodies, showing itself as God.

Dear Earburner,
God the Father is the one supreme God. However, Jesus Christ is mankind's God because the Father made Him to be our God.

Being a "god" does not mean that we have a "free will". This is not taught in scripture.

Even Satan is the god of this world and he does not have a "free will" to operate independently from God's "will".

Only God the Father has a "free will". Everyone who God the Father has created as a "will" but their "will" is ALWAYS subservient to God the Father's "will". At no time did Christ claim that He could do as He pleased. He only did the Father's "will".

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
God the Father is the one supreme God. However, Jesus Christ is mankind's God because the Father made Him to be our God.

Being a "god" does not mean that we have a "free will". This is not taught in scripture.

Even Satan is the god of this world and he does not have a "free will" to operate independently from God's "will".

Only God the Father has a "free will". Everyone who God the Father has created as a "will" but their "will" is ALWAYS subservient to God the Father's "will". At no time did Christ claim that He could do as He pleased. He only did the Father's "will".

Joe

I don't think that you are seeing our free will since creation. Adam and Eve were created having only innocence, which is having no knowledge of evil or good at all.

From that point, they were introduced to the Tree of Life, and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Both of which are symbolic, being that which is God's free will, as opposed to that which is human free will. In essence, by God, man was being allowed to make a choice by their own will. That is how we are made in the image of God.

That situation was brought about by God for no other reason but to allow mankind to have free will, so that they may choose whose will they desire to live by.

For us to say that man has no free will to choose, is to say that we are nothing more than "robots"

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
God the Father is the one supreme God. However, Jesus Christ is mankind's God because the Father made Him to be our God.

Being a "god" does not mean that we have a "free will". This is not taught in scripture.

Even Satan is the god of this world and he does not have a "free will" to operate independently from God's "will".

Only God the Father has a "free will". Everyone who God the Father has created as a "will" but their "will" is ALWAYS subservient to God the Father's "will". At no time did Christ claim that He could do as He pleased. He only did the Father's "will".

Joe

Of course! Jesus allowed the Father's will to have priority and authority over him. Though He Himself was eternal with the Father, before the world was, the beginning of His sacrifice, in mortal flesh while on earth, was to submit to His Father's will, of Whom is Greater than Himself.

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
God the Father is the one supreme God. However, Jesus Christ is mankind's God because the Father made Him to be our God.

Being a "god" does not mean that we have a "free will". This is not taught in scripture.

Even Satan is the god of this world and he does not have a "free will" to operate independently from God's "will".

Only God the Father has a "free will". Everyone who God the Father has created as a "will" but their "will" is ALWAYS subservient to God the Father's "will". At no time did Christ claim that He could do as He pleased. He only did the Father's "will".

Joe

I don't think that you are seeing our free will since creation. Adam and Eve were created having only innocence, which is having no knowledge of evil or good at all.

From that point, they were introduced to the Tree of Life, and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Both of which are symbolic, being that which is God's will, as opposed to that which is human free will. In essence, by God, man was being allowed to make a choice by their own will.

That situation was brought about by God for no other reason but to allow mankind to have free will, so that may choose whose will they desire to live by.

For us to say that man has no free will to choose, is to say that we are "robots"

 

[FaithWillDo]

I don't think that you are seeing our free will since creation. Adam and Eve were created having only innocence, which is having no knowledge of evil or good at all.

From that point, they were introduced to the Tree of Life, and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Both of which are symbolic, being that which is God's free will, as opposed to that which is human free will. In essence, by God, man was being allowed to make a choice by their own will. That is how we are made in the image of God.

That situation was brought about by God for no other reason but to allow mankind to have free will, so that they may choose whose will they desire to live by.

For us to say that man has no free will to choose, is to say that we are nothing more than "robots"

Dear Earburner,
You said:
In essence, by God, man was being allowed to make a choice by their own will. That is how we are made in the image of God.

No, that is completely untrue. There are ZERO scriptures which teach that false belief. That understanding comes from outside of what scripture teaches.

Here is what scripture teaches:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Adam and Eve were created spiritually marred and subject to vanity. This spiritual flaw made Adam and Eve "carnally minded". It is their carnal mind which caused them to sin.

Eve even displayed the three carnal reasons of why mankind sins BEFORE she even sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Christ even placed Satan in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve so that she would sin. With Eve being carnally minded and spiritually blind, Eve could make no other choice but to sin.

Her sin was planned and caused by God for it to happen. Why? Because this creation is for the purpose of creating new children for God. And because God wants His children to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". For that reason, God made Adam and Eve spiritually flawed and subject to vanity so that evil would come into the world.

You said:
For us to say that man has no free will to choose, is to say that we are nothing more than "robots"

I have no "free will" and I do not consider myself a "robot".

Mankind makes choices but God controls what choices we make. You are attributing the attributes and the reasoning of mankind onto God. However, God is not like mankind nor does He reason as mankind's carnal mind reasons.

Prov 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You should stop using your carnal mind to understand God. You must learn to rely solely on scripture to understand Him.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Of course! Jesus allowed the Father's will to have priority and authority over him. Though He Himself was eternal with the Father, before the world was, the beginning of His sacrifice, in mortal flesh while on earth, was to submit to His Father's will, of Whom is Greater than Himself.

Dear Earburner,
Christ "allowed" nothing. Christ could not possibly do anything that was not in compliance with His Father's "will", even to the point of His own death.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

You're using human reasoning to understand God and it will fail every time because:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I don't think that you are seeing our free will since creation. Adam and Eve were created having only innocence, which is having no knowledge of evil or good at all.

From that point, they were introduced to the Tree of Life, and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Both of which are symbolic, being that which is God's will, as opposed to that which is human free will. In essence, by God, man was being allowed to make a choice by their own will.

That situation was brought about by God for no other reason but to allow mankind to have free will, so that may choose whose will they desire to live by.

For us to say that man has no free will to choose, is to say that we are "robots"

Dear Earburner,
I believe this discussion as run its full course. Until you are given "eyes that can see" and the faith to believe what scripture teaches, I am not going to be able to help you.

Christ has a plan for your salvation and He will not let you down. If you have not been chosen as a First Fruit, there is nothing you or I can do to change it.

My work is to make the call of repentance to "called out" believers, just as John the Baptist made the call to the "called out" Nation of Israel. For those who respond to the call, Christ will come to them a second time and bring salvation. For those who don't respond, their salvation will be given to them at the end of the final age. I can only make the call, it is up to Christ as to who responds to it. You nor anyone else has a free will ability to deviate from God's plan and purpose for their life. We all must wait on the Lord to act.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Thanks for the discussion.

Joe

 

[Earburner]

S

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Sure, take your marbles and run.

You quoted the above, BUT you did not notice the free will of Christ's own decision.

Jesus GAVE himself for our sins!!
In other words, He decided of His own free will to obey the will of His Father, which was to deliver us from this present world, by allowing us to be born again of His Spirit, which is for us to have part in the resurrection of Christ, who is the Firstborn from the dead, of which now requires a decision on our part to obey Christ, through our free will.
Rev. 20:6, 2 Peter 1:4, Rev. 3:20.