What is the one true Church?

[Grailhunter]

Show me in the scriptures that says the historic Church would be overcome with evil. It's not there because anti-Catholics have invented a new doctrine that is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 – this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 – the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 – Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 – for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 – the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 – Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Mark 8:33 – non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter’s authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.

Luke 10:16 – whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me.
Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

Luke 22:32 – Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).

John 11:51-52 – some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus’ death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.

1 & 2 Peter – for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn’t his successors so teach as well?

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul – Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

You said the Church is indefectible.....do we see the word indefectible in these scriptures regarding the Church.
Why the Jewish scriptures? Are we going to talk about a Jewish Pope or Church.
And the Catholic Church is infallible! That is laughable if it was not so sad!
The modern Catholic Church as it runs in our communities is a great Church with great People, but its history of doctrines and atrocities and corruptions are just nutz! It could not be worse if they tried.

Up to the time of the Ecumenical Councils the Christian Church was not of one belief and not an organization....unorganized....hiding in different places to worship.....conducting serves in people's homes. But there were leaders as in plural. Understand there was no such thing as a Christian Church buildings until after the Edict of Milan. Christian and there leaders were on the run.

 

[Raccoon1010]

I think it's important to point out the properties of the true church. It should have bishops and deacons and apostles and they should be working for their food as is pointed out in the bible. Again the true church will have no poor among them and all will share equally. They will tend to the poor and widows.

Perhaps @Pearl got it correct. The Church is a spiritual matter that we follow Jesus. It does have a structure though as spelled out in the bible. But it is there to facilitate God's will for the members.

It will also have people that prophecy in it. And have dreams.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course I disagree. And I do not think it was a matter of Paul or Peter being in charge. Peter just messed up being a Cephas again.
And all you have presented is folklore. You know what folklore is? It is stories that people like and they talk about it....and in this case it gave them confidence in the Catholic Church.....

Then again what is a Pope.....It is a office....an office that conducts religious business. We would see letters from the Pope with his official signature, seal, and title. He would have a staff and administrative envoys that traveled to deliver different things. His activities and the duties of his office would clearly show up in history.

The fact of the matter is if Peter was actually a Pope and there was a lineage from him, we would not be having this conversation because it would be clearly obvious.

He would have a staff with administrative envoys?? An official signature and seal??
In the FIRST century, when Christianity was ILLEGAL and Christians were being martyred?
What fairy tale have YOU been reading??

There first 30 or so Popes were martyred – Peter, being the first (crucified). It was NOT an enviable office to hold. And there was certainly no pomp and circumstance in those days. We see by Peter’s greeting in 1 Pet. 5:15 that his location was secretive:

1 Pet. 5:13 S
She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.

“Babylon” was 1st century Christian code for Rome.
That’s not “folklore” – that’s historical fact.

As for there not being a “linage” from Peter – again, you close your eyes to Irenaeus’s Against Heresies, where he shows that lineage in the first 2 centuries by listing ALL of them. This was trustworthy enough for serious Protestant historians like respected scholar v J.N.D. Kelley in his book, The Oxford Dictionary of Popes. Amateur hacks on obscure internet forums like YOU, however, nervously dismiss this historical evidence . . .

YOUR problem – and you have MANY – is that you rely too much on anti-Catholic folklore.

 

[Taken]

Can you now see how your men have lied to you Taken?

No clue who you are calling “MY MEN”.

There is a group of Jewish men Jesus Appointed, such men whom Jesus taught, such men whom knew Jesus face to face, that I TRUST they spoke with Authority Gods Word.....but I would hardly call THEM My men... LOL

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Catholic Church isn't the true church. It's not the church that has as it's head and foundation being Jesus Christ. It seems to me that the Catholic Church thinks Peter is the founder of Christianity not Jesus. Does the Catholic Church honestly believe that Peter is the greater rock. The Catholic Church doesn't think Peter is greater than Jesus Christ, do they. Jesus Christ is the founder of Christianity, and Jesus Christ is the head and foundation of the true church. There's no head or foundation greater than Jesus Christ.
We do not know Jesus as a man today, because Jesus Christ sacrificed that human body that human life for mankind. Jesus Christ was resurrected as a immortal, incorruptible life giving spirit. This person who is a immortal incorruptible life giving spirit is the head and foundation of the true church.

Everything you said here is just incendiary nonsense aimed at pushing buttons. I can't believe that anybody who claims to have read the Bible is that stupid.

WHO said anything about Peter being the "Greater" Rock?? The "Catholic Church" certainly NEVER did. However - it might interest you to know that Jesus Christ is NOT the only one in Scripture to be referred to as the "Rock".
- Abraham is called the "Rock" in Isaiah 50:1-2.
- Peter is called "Rock" (Kepha) in Matt. 16:18. That's why Paul calls him "Cephas" (not Peter) in his letters.

As for who the "Head" of the Body (the Church) is - it is Jesus Christ (Col. 1:18).
The Pope is the earthly head - or Vicar. Just as God had an earthly ambassador in Moses - He also has one in the Pope.

 

[Grailhunter]

He would have a staff with administrative envoys?? An official signature and seal??
In the FIRST century, when Christianity was ILLEGAL and Christians were being martyred?
What fairy tale have YOU been reading??

There first 30 or so Popes were martyred – Peter, being the first (crucified). It was NOT an enviable office to hold. And there was certainly no pomp and circumstance in those days. We see by Peter’s greeting in 1 Pet. 5:15 that his location was secretive:

1 Pet. 5:13 S
She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.

“Babylon” was 1st century Christian code for Rome.
That’s not “folklore” – that’s historical fact.

As for there not being a “linage” from Peter – again, you close your eyes to Irenaeus’s Against Heresies, where he shows that lineage in the first 2 centuries by listing ALL of them. This was trustworthy enough for serious Protestant historians like respected scholar v J.N.D. Kelley in his book, The Oxford Dictionary of Popes. Amateur hacks on obscure internet forums like YOU, however, nervously dismiss this historical evidence . . .

YOUR problem – and you have MANY – is that you rely too much on anti-Catholic folklore.

Again I am saying it would be obvious. And I agree in the early time period nothing that would fit the description of Pope could exist. And not only that there were Christian leaders.....but not any one man identified as a leader, making decisions that others followed.

 

[Grailhunter]

All you’ve presented were the arguments of an obstinate child,
The only “evidence” you brought to the table was the phrase “tons of history books”.

By contrast, I quoted Irenaeus’s 2nd century document, Against Heresies, which lists ALL of the Popes from Irenaeus’s own time all the way back to Peter.
Additionally, I referenced Pope Victor I’s ruling on the celebration of Easter in the 2nd century.

I also quoted Tertullian’s 3rd century document, Di Pudicitia, in which he references Pope Callistus, calling him, “Pontifex Maximus”.

You live in a bizarre world where history is completely disregarded and where everybody has been wrong for thousands of years - because YOU’VE decided that’s the way it should be.

You are completely OUT of your league here, as this is a serious debate - not a childish standoff . . .

No I am a student of history and I would say about ten times....oh shoot probably a 100 time the education than you, not to mention a whole smarter.

 

[Keturah]

Lost soul>>>>>empty house of clay>>>>>>repentance brings "IN CHRIST" status>>>>>>GOD takes up residence>>>>>clay house becomes temple, tabernacle, house, the CHURCH of
God !

Those who allow the creator of all, God; to live in, walk with, speak through, & share his love to a lost world ARE GOD'S CHURCH !

God does not have his abode in a building made with the hands of man. ( even though through the insistence of man, he allowed & blue printed the Temple) He has no need for us to build him such since Christ. (there is  NO distinction btwn Jew /Gentile now) Heaven is his throne room & the earth his foot stool !

His church lives, breathes & has it's being in him !

 

[David in NJ]

Lost soul>>>>>empty house of clay>>>>>>repentance brings "IN CHRIST" status>>>>>>GOD takes up residence>>>>>clay house becomes temple, tabernacle, house, the CHURCH of
God !

Those who allow the creator of all, God; to live in, walk with, speak through, & share his love to a lost world ARE GOD'S CHURCH !

God does not have his abode in a building made with the hands of man. ( even though through the insistence of man, he allowed & blue printed the Temple) He has no need for us to build him such since Christ. (there is  NO distinction btwn Jew /Gentile now) Heaven is his throne room & the earth his foot stool !

His church lives, breathes & has it's being in him !

In Him we Live and Move and have our Being = HE is before ALL things and in HIM all things consist!

Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious;
for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again I am saying it would be obvious. And I agree in the early time period nothing that would fit the description of Pope could exist. And not only that there were Christian leaders.....but not any one man identified as a leader, making decisions that others followed.

You can pretend that I haven’t already addressed this but I HAVE.

I referenced the Letter of Clement (3rd Pope) in about the year 85 AD, where he is making decisions about the Church in Coriinth was having issues with their clergy.

Now, WHY would the Bishop of Rome interfere with a congregation in another city in another country if they already HAD a Bishop - if he wasn’t in charge??

I also pointed to Pope Victor I’s decision in the 2nd century for the Church celebration of Easter – that stands to THIS day. Your denials are as pathetic as the 3 monkeys below . . .

 

[Keturah]

In Him we Live and Move and have our Being = HE is before ALL things and in HIM all things consist!

Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious;
for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

No I am a student of history and I would say about ten times....oh shoot probably a 100 time the education than you, not to mention a whole smarter.

A "whole smarter" -
REALLY??

 

[Grailhunter]

You can pretend that I haven’t already addressed this but I HAVE.

I referenced the Letter of Clement (3rd Pope) in about the year 85 AD, where he is making decisions about the Church in Coriinth was having issues with their clergy.

Now, WHY would the Bishop of Rome interfere with a congregation in another city in another country if they already HAD a Bishop - if he wasn’t in charge??

I also pointed to Pope Victor I’s decision in the 2nd century for the Church celebration of Easter – that stands to THIS day. Your denials are as pathetic as the 3 monkeys below . . .

View attachment 30159

Victor was the Bishop of Rome according to Christians.....a Bishop in hiding because if he would have asserted any public authority the Romans would have killed him.....That goes for any Christian leader. And I still say there was no central authority that all the Churches....congregations of Christians obeyed.

 

[Illuminator]

The Catholic Church isn't the true church.

Lie #1.

It's not the church that has as it's head and foundation being Jesus Christ.

Lie #2.

It seems to me that the Catholic Church thinks Peter is the founder of Christianity not Jesus.

Lie #3.

Does the Catholic Church honestly believe that Peter is the greater rock.

No. Straw man fallacy. Lie #4

The Catholic Church doesn't think Peter is greater than Jesus Christ, do they.

Correct.

Jesus Christ is the founder of Christianity, and Jesus Christ is the head and foundation of the true church. There's no head or foundation greater than Jesus Christ.

Correct. Jesus said He will build the Church. Nobody ever claimed Peter builds the Church.

We do not know Jesus as a man today, because Jesus Christ sacrificed that human body that human life for mankind.

The Church is Christ on earth, we see the face of Christ on the poor and suffering. You see the CC with the face of the devil.
You and your ilk have no option but to interpret every single Catholic line ever written in order to fulfil so called "prophecies". They were inspired by occult channeling and dreams by an influential lady with hypographia ( a neurological condition) who most likely influenced Alexander Hislop; the parallels aren't that hard to spot.

Jesus Christ was resurrected as a immortal, incorruptible life giving spirit. This person who is a immortal incorruptible life giving spirit is the head and foundation of the true church.

That is a truth you borrowed from the CC that you despise. Wanting it both ways is a kind of spiritual/mental illness.

I've been waiting for a couple of years now for an explanation for why no SDA members were rounded up by the Nazis and sent to the concentration camps. Hitler gave the SDA a free pass to preach because he liked what they taught about the Pope.
This is the rock you stand on; it requires a balancing act so you don't fall off.

​

 

[Grailhunter]

A "whole smarter" -
REALLY??

Yeap a whole lot smarter.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Victor was the Bishop of Rome according to Christians.....a Bishop in hiding because if he would have asserted any public authority the Romans would have killed him.....That goes for any Christian leader. And I still say there was no central authority that all the Churches....congregations of Christians obeyed.

Victor I ruled on the Quartodeciman Controversy with regard to Easter in the 2nd century as Bishop of Rome (Pope).
If course - in YOUR world, he never existed.

What color is the sky in your world?

 

[Taken]

WHO said anything about Peter being the "Greater" Rock??

It is Peter whom you have repeatedly referenced as the rock.

It is the Lord God whom is the Rock.

The Foundation; The MISSION STATEMENT if you will, that apples to ANY Church, that is Representing Christ Jesus’ Church, IS:
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, upon which Jesus said He would build >>> His Chruch.

The Catholic Church so Honored the “their Peter rock”, they build a Church and even claim it is literally built upon the bones of Peter, and posthumously, without his knowledge, Proclaimed Peter their “pope” and all the foo foo titles that go along with “a man elected a catholic pope”.

The "Catholic Church" certainly NEVER did. However - it might interest you to know that Jesus Christ is NOT the only one in Scripture to be referred to as the "Rock". Abraham is called the "Rock" in Isaiah 50:1-2.
- Peter is called "Rock" (Kepha) in Matt. 16:18. That's why Paul calls him "Cephas" (not Peter) in his letters.

As for who the "Head" of the Body (the Church) is - it is Jesus Christ (Col. 1:18).
The Pope is the earthly head - or Vicar. Just as God had an earthly ambassador in Moses - He also has one in the Pope.

God has historically identified particular humans by name, whom God Himself recognized as outstanding SERVANTS of God. Serving God in an express capacity that Glorified God.

Sorry, but the Lord has not returned and back-patted every man which a FEW other men “elect” as a “pope”.

Every high office, elected, appointed, seated occupant has their flaws...politically and religiously....

God Himself revealed WHOM HE appointed an Earthly Father, and that has NOT yet changed....

Gen 17:
[4] As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
[5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

If it is “anti-catholic” to ignore whom a Few Gentile men calling themselves Catholic, elect as their world father dictator.....why do you care?

Some People, Jews and Gentiles, are quite content with
WHOM God Himself MADE Father of many earthly nations....
And
WHOM God Himself SENT to Preach His WORD.

Historical World Empires via military strength, gobbling up individual Nations, has always had an EVIL connotation and WICKEDNESS of armed forced oppression of the People at Large.

The Babylonia Empire was notably EVIL and WICKED, and is not a “code” word for Rome....it’s a “code” word for any OVER reaching Powerful entity, of EVIL and WICKEDNESS .... using military force strength....and underhanded Trickery....not unlike what the UN is today.

 

[Illuminator]

No I am a student of history and I would say about ten times....oh shoot probably a 100 time the education than you, not to mention a whole smarter.

Real students of history don't deny truckloads of primary source documentation the way you do.

Victor was the Bishop of Rome according to Christians.....a Bishop in hiding because if he would have asserted any public authority the Romans would have killed him.....That goes for any Christian leader. And I still say there was no central authority that all the Churches....congregations of Christians obeyed.

The first 37+ popes were killed by pagan Romans, including Pope St. Victor I, more facts you are bound to deny.

 

[Grailhunter]

Victor I ruled on the Quartodeciman Controversy with regard to Easter in the 2nd century as Bishop of Rome (Pope).
If course - in YOUR world, he never existed.

What color is the sky in your world?

Yes I know that Bishop Victor ruled on this. Which was something that the "churches" of the east took note of.

The disagreement was about when and how the feast of Passover should be observed....different names Resurrection Sunday and such.
Of interest....Bishop Victor's response to Polycrates' letter are recorded by Socrates Scholasticus as such: "In Asia Minor most people kept the fourteenth day of the moon, disregarding the sabbath: yet they never separated from those who did otherwise, until Victor, Bishop of Rome, influenced by too ardent a zeal, fulminated a sentence of excommunication against the Quartodecimans in Asia." This led to a sharp rebuke by many prominent bishops (including the most well known, Irenaeus).

 

[Grailhunter]

Real students of history don't deny truckloads of primary source documentation the way you do.

You have to consider the source.