What is "Parousia"?

[amigo de christo]

1 Corinthians chapter 15 = 100% Truth = every word of it

The Holy Spirit, as recorded in chapter 15, does not say that when we are "Transformed" that we will experience death.

It says that we will "put off" the mortal thru TRANSFORMATION into Immortal and that this will happen in a "INSTANT" = split second.

He who believeth in me shall never taste of death . Believeth thou this , and lambs say AMEN we do .
The body might die , but the soul is with the LORD . no lamb will taste of death , FOR JESUS has already tasted it for us
and has overcome he who had power over death , that is the devil .
We will be TRANSFORMED . but not taste of death . exactly my friend . NOW let all lift those hands and praise the KING .

 

[rwb]

Your answer: a + b = C

a.) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I tell you a mystery:
We shall not all sleep(die/death), but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

b.)1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 Paul clearly states those are alive at the Coming of the Lord will not die.

a + b = Coming of Christ

If you do not understand this - let me know.

As it is plain in the following translations, none of them say "we shall not sleep (die/death)", that is you reading your opinion into the text. The verse says, all who are alive at His coming will be changed. It says nothing about how this change will come about, or whether our old body physically dies when changed from mortal to immortal. When we carefully read the passage we read Paul telling us that some have already died in Christ, and we should not be concerned about them missing the return of our Lord. Because those who have already died will return with Christ when He comes the second time. Not only that, because there will be some who believe who will still be alive when Christ comes again, they will not be caught up with the Lord and changed before those who have died who return with Him. Those who are still alive on the earth at His coming will be caught up with them in the clouds, and from 1Co 15 we find this is when believers are changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Why? Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Do you understand that? Mortal bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. That's why Paul longed to be rid of his physical, mortal body destined to death, and to be clothed with immortality and incorruption. We must be rid of our mortal body to be present with the Lord. We must be absent from our mortal, corruptible body to be present with the Lord. That's why I ask you, and am still waiting for an answer, "What does it mean to be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible at His coming again?" It is my understanding from Scripture that the only way we can be present with the Lord is to be absent from our mortal body of flesh and blood. The old mortal body must be crucified/die to be resurrected with immortal and incorruptible bodies like Christ'.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (YLT) for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (WEB) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (DBY) (For this we say to you in [the] word of [the] Lord, that *we*, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep;

 

[David in NJ]

As it is plain in the following translations, none of them say "we shall not sleep (die/death)", that is you reading your opinion into the text. The verse says, all who are alive at His coming will be changed. It says nothing about how this change will come about, or whether our old body physically dies when changed from mortal to immortal. When we carefully read the passage we read Paul telling us that some have already died in Christ, and we should not be concerned about them missing the return of our Lord. Because those who have already died will return with Christ when He comes the second time. Not only that, because there will be some who believe who will still be alive when Christ comes again, they will not be caught up with the Lord and changed before those who have died who return with Him. Those who are still alive on the earth at His coming will be caught up with them in the clouds, and from 1Co 15 we find this is when believers are changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Why? Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Do you understand that? Mortal bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. That's why Paul longed to be rid of his physical, mortal body destined to death, and to be clothed with immortality and incorruption. We must be rid of our mortal body to be present with the Lord. We must be absent from our mortal, corruptible body to be present with the Lord. That's why I ask you, and am still waiting for an answer, "What does it mean to be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible at His coming again?" It is my understanding from Scripture that the only way we can be present with the Lord is to be absent from our mortal body of flesh and blood. The old mortal body must be crucified/die to be resurrected with immortal and incorruptible bodies like Christ'.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (YLT) for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (WEB) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (DBY) (For this we say to you in [the] word of [the] Lord, that *we*, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep;

Concerning those who are alive at His Coming = 'Ridding' the mortal body does not mean death"

The Scripture, in FACT, says those who are alive at His Coming will NOT DIE.

TRUTH - our mortal bodies cannot inherit immortality therefore a CHANGE must take place = at His Coming

TRUTH - that CHANGE is called TRANSFORMATION from mortal to immortality

TRUTH - the TRANSFORMATION takes place in a SPLIT-SECOND = in the blink of an eye

TRUTH - You do not know how - you are only called to BELIEVE = that's HOW

i KNOW that HE will Perform IT - How? = i have my opinion = my opinion does not matter = His Word Matters

Do you understand the Matter?

 

[rwb]

The Scripture, in FACT, says those who are alive at His Coming will NOT DIE.

Chapter and verse please?

 

[David in NJ]

As it is plain in the following translations, none of them say "we shall not sleep (die/death)", that is you reading your opinion into the text. The verse says, all who are alive at His coming will be changed. It says nothing about how this change will come about, or whether our old body physically dies when changed from mortal to immortal. When we carefully read the passage we read Paul telling us that some have already died in Christ, and we should not be concerned about them missing the return of our Lord. Because those who have already died will return with Christ when He comes the second time. Not only that, because there will be some who believe who will still be alive when Christ comes again, they will not be caught up with the Lord and changed before those who have died who return with Him. Those who are still alive on the earth at His coming will be caught up with them in the clouds, and from 1Co 15 we find this is when believers are changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Why? Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Do you understand that? Mortal bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. That's why Paul longed to be rid of his physical, mortal body destined to death, and to be clothed with immortality and incorruption. We must be rid of our mortal body to be present with the Lord. We must be absent from our mortal, corruptible body to be present with the Lord. That's why I ask you, and am still waiting for an answer, "What does it mean to be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible at His coming again?" It is my understanding from Scripture that the only way we can be present with the Lord is to be absent from our mortal body of flesh and blood. The old mortal body must be crucified/die to be resurrected with immortal and incorruptible bodies like Christ'.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (YLT) for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (WEB) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (DBY) (For this we say to you in [the] word of [the] Lord, that *we*, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep;

You said: "It is my understanding from Scripture that the only way we can be present with the Lord is to be absent from our mortal body of flesh and blood."

Now you are on the RIGHT Path to Truth......

 

[David in NJ]

Chapter and verse please?

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—

 

[rwb]

You said: "It is my understanding from Scripture that the only way we can be present with the Lord is to be absent from our mortal body of flesh and blood."

Now you are on the RIGHT Path to Truth......

To be absent from our mortal body means we must physically die! But you say those alive at His coming will not die?

 

[David in NJ]

To be absent from our mortal body means we must physically die! But you say those alive at His coming will not die?

Prior to His Second Coming = YES

but not at His Second Coming

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—" 1 Cor 15:51

 

[rwb]

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—

This verse is not saying we shall never die as you assume. Paul is telling us there will be some believers still alive when our Lord comes again. IOW there will still be believers alive upon the earth when our Lord returns the second time. NOWHERE does Scripture say some mortal believers will NEVER die! Paul does not say believers alive at His coming will never die! He says believers still alive at His coming will be changed, but Paul does not tell us they shall not die. Since it is necessary to put on immorality and incorruption to ever be with the Lord, our mortal bodies must die to be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[rwb]

Prior to His Second Coming = YES

but not at His Second Coming

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—" 1 Cor 15:51

We shall not all sleep (die) before He comes again. Some, unlike those believers who have already physically died will still be physically alive at His second coming. Paul doesn't say they will never die, but that they too, like those who have already died, will be changed from mortal (bodies of death) to immortal.

 

[David in NJ]

This verse is not saying we shall never die as you assume. Paul is telling us there will be some believers still alive when our Lord comes again. IOW there will still be believers alive upon the earth when our Lord returns the second time. NOWHERE does Scripture say some mortal believers will NEVER die! Paul does not say believers alive at His coming will never die! He says believers still alive at His coming will be changed, but Paul does not tell us they shall not die. Since it is necessary to put on immorality and incorruption to ever be with the Lord, our mortal bodies must die to be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Do you see the CLEAR scripture that says "We shall not all sleep"

Do you know what this means?

 

[David in NJ]

We shall not all sleep (die) before He comes again. Some, unlike those believers who have already physically died will still be physically alive at His second coming. Paul doesn't say they will never die, but that they too, like those who have already died, will be changed from mortal (bodies of death) to immortal.

What does "shall not" mean?

 

[rwb]

Do you see the CLEAR scripture that says "We shall not all sleep"

Do you know what this means?

Read it in context! Paul takes great pains to explain what has become of believers who have already physically died before the second coming of Christ. In Christ they were sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body (1Cor 15:44). They are the spiritual bodies that will return with the Lord when He comes again. Since they did not remain physically alive to witness the second coming of our Lord, their bodies will be physically resurrected and changed before those who are still physically alive at His coming. But those who are still alive when the Lord comes again will also be raised incorruptible and put on immortality. They cannot be incorruptible and immortal until they are forever rid of their mortal, corruptible bodies destined to die. This happens when mortal, faithful men and women physically die. That's why Paul longed to be absent from his mortal, physical body so he could be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[rwb]

Do you see the CLEAR scripture that says "We shall not all sleep"

Do you know what this means?

It means that some believers will still be alive on this earth when the Lord returns the second time.

 

[David in NJ]

It means that some believers will still be alive on this earth when the Lord returns the second time.

It means that some believers will still be alive on this earth when the Lord returns the second time.

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—" 1 Cor 15:51

It means EXACTLY what it says: "We shall NOT Sleep/DIE"

Matthew 5:37 - But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

You are turning God's word where HE said 'NO' into a 'Yes' - this does not come from the Holy Spirit.

 

[David in NJ]

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—" 1 Cor 15:51

It means EXACTLY what it says: "We shall NOT Sleep/DIE"

Matthew 5:37 - But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

 

[rwb]

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—" 1 Cor 15:51

It means EXACTLY what it says: "We shall NOT Sleep/DIE"

Matthew 5:37 - But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

You are turning God's word where HE said 'NO' into a 'Yes' - this does not come from the Holy Spirit.

We shall not all die before Christ returns the second time. Some believers shall not die before He comes again. But all believers shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible at His coming when the last trumpet sounds. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed at His coming. Exactly as Paul tells us some will have already died, but all who have not died will be changed with those who have died. Because death is appointed or awaits all men.

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[David in NJ]

We shall not all die before Christ returns the second time. Some believers shall not die before He comes again. But all believers shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible at His coming when the last trumpet sounds. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed at His coming. Exactly as Paul tells us some will have already died, but all who have not died will be changed with those who have died. Because death is appointed or awaits all men.

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Hebrews 9:27-28(KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You said: Because death is appointed or awaits all men.

You, again, are adding to God's words what HE did not say in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-51

Hebrews 9:27 speaks of sin causing death to all men, therefore Christ came and bore our sins!
Therefore when HE Returns - we who are alive will not experience death = we will be Transformed from mortal to Imortal.

Hebrews 9:28 "unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto Salvation."

There is No Death in JESUS our SALVATION at His Coming.

There is NO DEATH in Hebrews 9:28 = stop adding to God's words, which is sin.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[keithr]

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—" 1 Cor 15:51

It means EXACTLY what it says: "We shall NOT Sleep/DIE"

Perhaps the confusion, or your disagreement, is based on timing, or time. To my understanding, to die, the moment of death, is an instant thing, something that happens at a point in time. Whereas the term 'sleep' is used to mean to be in the state of death for a period of time, perhaps for thousands of years before being resurrected. So to 'sleep' means to be in a lifeless state; it doesn't mean 'die'.

So Paul is saying that although many Christians have died, and are 'sleeping' in a dead state, not all Christians will likewise spend time in a lifeless state. Those that are alive when Jesus returns for his body members, his bride, will be changed to have a spirit body, just like those that are resurrected and given a spirit body, and this will happen in a twinkling of an eye. That's fast! The “twinkling of the eye” is the time it takes for light to enter the eye, reach the back of the eye, and be reflected back out. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, so the twinkle is about one billionth of a second. Blinking is a bit slower (it's a physical movement), but still fast. A blink lasts somewhere between 300 and 400 milliseconds, or considerably less than half a second.

Naturally, the flesh body will no longer exist. Those dead will be given a spirit body - there is no need to bring them to life with a flesh body and then change that flesh body to a spirit body. Those raptured will be instantly changed, which as I understand it means that we will be given a spirit body and our human body will be dissolved away and exist no more - just as Jesus' body seemed to have dematerialised in the tomb. The dissolving of the human body obviously means the death of that body, but we, our souls, will continue to live live forever. As Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

 

[David in NJ]

Perhaps the confusion, or your disagreement, is based on timing, or time. To my understanding, to die, the moment of death, is an instant thing, something that happens at a point in time. Whereas the term 'sleep' is used to mean to be in the state of death for a period of time, perhaps for thousands of years before being resurrected. So to 'sleep' means to be in a lifeless state; it doesn't mean 'die'.

So Paul is saying that although many Christians have died, and are 'sleeping' in a dead state, not all Christians will likewise spend time in a lifeless state. Those that are alive when Jesus returns for his body members, his bride, will be changed to have a spirit body, just like those that are resurrected and given a spirit body, and this will happen in a twinkling of an eye. That's fast! The “twinkling of the eye” is the time it takes for light to enter the eye, reach the back of the eye, and be reflected back out. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, so the twinkle is about one billionth of a second. Blinking is a bit slower (it's a physical movement), but still fast. A blink lasts somewhere between 300 and 400 milliseconds, or considerably less than half a second.

Naturally, the flesh body will no longer exist. Those dead will be given a spirit body - there is no need to bring them to life with a flesh body and then change that flesh body to a spirit body. Those raptured will be instantly changed, which as I understand it means that we will be given a spirit body and our human body will be dissolved away and exist no more - just as Jesus' body seemed to have dematerialised in the tomb. The dissolving of the human body obviously means the death of that body, but we, our souls, will continue to live live forever. As Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Soul sleep is a false doctrine = so is adding to God's words what HE did not say.

When the physical body dies it returns to the ground from where it was made = "Dust you are and dust you return."

Scripture uses "sleep' because the physical body is at 'rest' in the ground = Sleep is Death in 1 Thess ch4 , 1 Cor 15:51 , Dan ch12

There will be NO DEATH for those in Christ who are alive at HIS Coming - Do not add to God's words.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Our mortal bodies will change into immortal in a instant, in a split second = NO DEATH EXPERIENCE of ANY KIND

Dead bodies will NOT be falling to the ground as we are CHANGED and TRANSFORMED into GLORY.

This is a NO-BRAINER = What do you think is rising from the dead??? JESUS dead body Rose from the grave = HELLO!!!

We are made of 3 parts = Body, Soul, Spirit - Hebrews 4:12 , Matthew 10:28

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
When our bodies die they return to the ground where they came from.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.