"As a Thief in the Night"

[FaithWillDo]

They are one and the same. The rapture is NOT a scriptural teaching.

Dear RR144,
Your belief that the rapture is a false teaching got my attention so I decided to respond to you.

I agree that the rapture is a false teaching and is not supported by scripture.

As for Christ's second coming being like a thief in the night, I will make a few comments below.

Firstly, scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ. The thief in the night verse is no exception.

The symbol "night" is a reference to a believer's spiritual blindness and is the time period when they will walk in darkness rather than in light (truth). All believers will experience this time of spiritual darkness shortly they have been called out from the world and have received the Holy Spirit of Promise (the Early Rain, Eph 1:13-14). Christ also taught this truth in Mat 12:43-45.

During this time of spiritual darkness, the believer will become "worse than the first" and will lose their salvation. They will then start dwelling in "peace and safety" under the strong delusion (2Thes 2:11). This delusion is that the ways of Satan are the ways of Christ. In other words, Satan masquerades as Christ to the believer and they come under his deceptions. Satan's deceptions are what causes the believer to "fall away" and commit the sin that leads to death (mixing works with faith). The believer will then remain in this spiritually worsened condition until they die or until Christ comes to them a second time.

If the believer has been chosen from the foundation of the world for salvation in this age, Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit/Baptism of the Spirit. This is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and the same event Paul experienced after being in Damascus for three days. This event is the second coming of Christ when He comes as a thief in the night. When Christ comes, he will come suddenly and spiritually to the individual believer. After He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon the believer, their spiritual blindness will be healed (Mar 8:21-25). With this new spiritual vision (eyes that can see), Christ will "appear" to the believer through God's Word. With the brightness of His appearance to the believer, judgment will begin and bring "sudden destruction" to the believer's false beliefs and carnality. This time of destruction is called the Day of the Lord.

Peter explained this truth in Acts chapter 2:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This event described above is the second coming of Christ. It is not a one-time event which happens at the end of the age. It is a reoccurring spiritual event within the life of an Elect believer. When Christ comes to them, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and bring salvation to them:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Note: When Christ comes the first time to a person to call them out from the world, He does not "appear" to them. At that time, He gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit and they enter the church. But because the new believer remains spiritually blind, Christ does not "appear" to them. Paul "typed" this time of being "called out" (Early Rain) on the Damascus Road when Christ came to Him. At that time, Paul could not see Christ but could only hear his voice. Even then, Paul had to ask who the voice was. Paul then became blind which "types" the spiritual blindness all believers experience after they are called out (Mat 4:4).

After the believer is given their new spiritual vision with the Latter Rain, their Sun and the Moon will be darkened. This means that the believer will no longer receive their "truth" from this world (Satan's world) but will now only receive it directly from Christ.

Anyway, that is what I have been shown from Christ on the spiritual meaning of a "thief in the night". If you have any questions, I will be happy to respond to them.

By the way, this is my first post on this forum.
Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

They are one and the same. The rapture is NOT a scriptural teaching.

The rapture is most definitely a Scriptural teaching! While the name rapture is coined, its biblical technical name could be called the great snatching away!

The Greek word is harpagmo- which means to snatch, carry, draw, drag with force.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version

​

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Caugfht up is harpagmo. We will be snatched up as Paul said in 1 Cor. 15 in a moment , in the twinkling of an eye.

The when is what most people debate but it will occur before the time of Jacobs trouble begins or what many Christians colloquially call the tribulation. The last 7 years of human history before Jesus physically returns.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

After thinking about it further, I believe the DOL begins with Jesus' decent to earth again, which is why his arrival and the DOL are said to begin "like a thief in the night." I appreciate your distinction between them.

I believe that the "run-up" to the DOL is when God brings smoke and destruction on the earth.
I believe the "tribulation" began with the event recorded in Acts 12:1

Well tribulation is something Jesus promised believers throughout all the ages the church lives in. But there is a time people call THE tribulation which is a 7 year period when God prepares the nation of Israel to receive Jesus as messiah and to pour His WRATH OUT ON AN UNBELIEVING WORLD.

The Day of the Lord is a time of great great wrath poured out on the earth. The major and minor prophets go into great detail about this time and the darkness. the book of Revelation spells this time out with the trumpets and bowls happening. When Jesus returns, He judges the sheep and the goats and sends the sheep into a resorted earth and the goats to the place of torments for 1000 years to await the lake of fire!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Dear RR144,
Your belief that the rapture is a false teaching got my attention so I decided to respond to you.

I agree that the rapture is a false teaching and is not supported by scripture.

As for Christ's second coming being like a thief in the night, I will make a few comments below.

Firstly, scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ. The thief in the night verse is no exception.

The symbol "night" is a reference to a believer's spiritual blindness and is the time period when they will walk in darkness rather than in light (truth). All believers will experience this time of spiritual darkness shortly they have been called out from the world and have received the Holy Spirit of Promise (the Early Rain, Eph 1:13-14). Christ also taught this truth in Mat 12:43-45.

During this time of spiritual darkness, the believer will become "worse than the first" and will lose their salvation. They will then start dwelling in "peace and safety" under the strong delusion (2Thes 2:11). This delusion is that the ways of Satan are the ways of Christ. In other words, Satan masquerades as Christ to the believer and they come under his deceptions. Satan's deceptions are what causes the believer to "fall away" and commit the sin that leads to death (mixing works with faith). The believer will then remain in this spiritually worsened condition until they die or until Christ comes to them a second time.

If the believer has been chosen from the foundation of the world for salvation in this age, Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit/Baptism of the Spirit. This is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and the same event Paul experienced after being in Damascus for three days. This event is the second coming of Christ when He comes as a thief in the night. When Christ comes, he will come suddenly and spiritually to the individual believer. After He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon the believer, their spiritual blindness will be healed (Mar 8:21-25). With this new spiritual vision (eyes that can see), Christ will "appear" to the believer through God's Word. With the brightness of His appearance to the believer, judgment will begin and bring "sudden destruction" to the believer's false beliefs and carnality. This time of destruction is called the Day of the Lord.

Peter explained this truth in Acts chapter 2:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This event described above is the second coming of Christ. It is not a one-time event which happens at the end of the age. It is a reoccurring spiritual event within the life of an Elect believer. When Christ comes to them, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and bring salvation to them:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Note: When Christ comes the first time to a person to call them out from the world, He does not "appear" to them. At that time, He gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit and they enter the church. But because the new believer remains spiritually blind, Christ does not "appear" to them. Paul "typed" this time of being "called out" (Early Rain) on the Damascus Road when Christ came to Him. At that time, Paul could not see Christ but could only hear his voice. Even then, Paul had to ask who the voice was. Paul then became blind which "types" the spiritual blindness all believers experience after they are called out (Mat 4:4).

After the believer is given their new spiritual vision with the Latter Rain, their Sun and the Moon will be darkened. This means that the believer will no longer receive their "truth" from this world (Satan's world) but will now only receive it directly from Christ.

Anyway, that is what I have been shown from Christ on the spiritual meaning of a "thief in the night". If you have any questions, I will be happy to respond to them.

By the way, this is my first post on this forum.
Joe

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear RR144,
Your belief that the rapture is a false teaching got my attention so I decided to respond to you.

I agree that the rapture is a false teaching and is not supported by scripture.

As for Christ's second coming being like a thief in the night, I will make a few comments below.

Firstly, scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ. The thief in the night verse is no exception.

The symbol "night" is a reference to a believer's spiritual blindness and is the time period when they will walk in darkness rather than in light (truth). All believers will experience this time of spiritual darkness shortly they have been called out from the world and have received the Holy Spirit of Promise (the Early Rain, Eph 1:13-14). Christ also taught this truth in Mat 12:43-45.

During this time of spiritual darkness, the believer will become "worse than the first" and will lose their salvation. They will then start dwelling in "peace and safety" under the strong delusion (2Thes 2:11). This delusion is that the ways of Satan are the ways of Christ. In other words, Satan masquerades as Christ to the believer and they come under his deceptions. Satan's deceptions are what causes the believer to "fall away" and commit the sin that leads to death (mixing works with faith). The believer will then remain in this spiritually worsened condition until they die or until Christ comes to them a second time.

If the believer has been chosen from the foundation of the world for salvation in this age, Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit/Baptism of the Spirit. This is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and the same event Paul experienced after being in Damascus for three days. This event is the second coming of Christ when He comes as a thief in the night. When Christ comes, he will come suddenly and spiritually to the individual believer. After He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon the believer, their spiritual blindness will be healed (Mar 8:21-25). With this new spiritual vision (eyes that can see), Christ will "appear" to the believer through God's Word. With the brightness of His appearance to the believer, judgment will begin and bring "sudden destruction" to the believer's false beliefs and carnality. This time of destruction is called the Day of the Lord.

Peter explained this truth in Acts chapter 2:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This event described above is the second coming of Christ. It is not a one-time event which happens at the end of the age. It is a reoccurring spiritual event within the life of an Elect believer. When Christ comes to them, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and bring salvation to them:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Note: When Christ comes the first time to a person to call them out from the world, He does not "appear" to them. At that time, He gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit and they enter the church. But because the new believer remains spiritually blind, Christ does not "appear" to them. Paul "typed" this time of being "called out" (Early Rain) on the Damascus Road when Christ came to Him. At that time, Paul could not see Christ but could only hear his voice. Even then, Paul had to ask who the voice was. Paul then became blind which "types" the spiritual blindness all believers experience after they are called out (Mat 4:4).

After the believer is given their new spiritual vision with the Latter Rain, their Sun and the Moon will be darkened. This means that the believer will no longer receive their "truth" from this world (Satan's world) but will now only receive it directly from Christ.

Anyway, that is what I have been shown from Christ on the spiritual meaning of a "thief in the night". If you have any questions, I will be happy to respond to them.

By the way, this is my first post on this forum.
Joe

WElcome to the thread!

I cannot disagree with you strongly enough.

Your commentary is simply a rewrite of what Paul said. You need to show from Scripture why we should not take the words of Paul as He wrote them and subscribe to your allegorical reinterpretation. There are many other allegorical reinterpretations of Pauls words here. what makes yours right and all the others wrong and why taking Paul at the normal usual meaning of the words he wrote as commonly understood wrong as well?

Based on your allegorical reinterpretation, let me ask an honest Question of you:

Do you believe that Jesus is going to physically return to the earth as He said He would?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well tribulation is something Jesus promised believers throughout all the ages the church lives in. But there is a time people call THE tribulation which is a 7 year period when God prepares the nation of Israel to receive Jesus as messiah and to pour His WRATH OUT ON AN UNBELIEVING WORLD.

The Day of the Lord is a time of great great wrath poured out on the earth. The major and minor prophets go into great detail about this time and the darkness. the book of Revelation spells this time out with the trumpets and bowls happening. When Jesus returns, He judges the sheep and the goats and sends the sheep into a resorted earth and the goats to the place of torments for 1000 years to await the lake of fire!

Okay, I understand. I don't believe in the Seven Year Tribulation Theory. I don't consider the trumpets and bowls to be the Great Tribulation as some think. The Trumpets are the run-up to the Day of the Lord, serving as warning signs of Christ's imminent return. The bowls are God's wrath against those who went to war with Israel at Armageddon.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Okay, I understand. I don't believe in the Seven Year Tribulation Theory. I don't consider the trumpets and bowls to be the Great Tribulation as some think. The Trumpets are the run-up to the Day of the Lord, serving as warning signs of Christ's imminent return. The bowls are God's wrath against those who went to war with Israel at Armageddon.

How do you justify the fact that the armies of the world who marshal themselves are not called to do so until the sixth bowl is poured! Do you just willy nilly retime the events as written to suit a need?

The trumpets and bowls are the wrath god pours out in the Day of the Lord! Teh minor prophets declared it

 

[FaithWillDo]

WElcome to the thread!

I cannot disagree with you strongly enough.

Your commentary is simply a rewrite of what Paul said. You need to show from Scripture why we should not take the words of Paul as He wrote them and subscribe to your allegorical reinterpretation. There are many other allegorical reinterpretations of Pauls words here. what makes yours right and all the others wrong and why taking Paul at the normal usual meaning of the words he wrote as commonly understood wrong as well?

Based on your allegorical reinterpretation, let me ask an honest Question of you:

Do you believe that Jesus is going to physically return to the earth as He said He would?

Dear Mr. Nolette,
No where in scripture does it say that Christ will return to the earth physically and visible to the human eye at the end of this literal age.

Here is what scripture says:

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ (the second coming), which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ is now spirit and as the verse above says, He will remain in the "heaven" (the spiritual realm which is in the mind) until the times of the restitution of all things. The restitution of all things occurs at the end of the final age, at the "consummation" (1Cor 15:24). It is "typed" by the Feast of Tabernacles (the time of the great ingathering). Until that time, Christ will remain in heaven and will only be seen with spiritual eyes.

The verses below are teaching on the second coming of Christ:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Christ came a second time to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. This is the Apostles point of salvation and when their new child of God was born. It is this new child who has "eyes that can see".

The truth of God's Word will only reveal itself to a converted believer. To everyone else, the truth of God's Word will remain "veiled" (hidden by the clouds) . Because the truth of God's Word is concealed from this world, many hundreds of different denominations/sects of Christianity have been created - each of whom claims to know the truth. However, none of them actually do - they are places where the blind lead the blind.

When Christ does come to a believer the second time, He will spiritually "appear" (between the ears so to speak) to them and the brightness of His appearing will bring judgment (the Day of the Lord) to the false beliefs and carnality of the believer.

As for this greatly mis-understood scripture below, it is NOT teaching that Christ will return to the earth physically and visibly.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

For "called out" believers (who are all spiritually blind), Christ is hidden by the cloud. When Christ returns to a believer with the Latter Rain, He will heal their spiritual blindness and He will then appear from behind the cloud. The world cannot witness it. Only the believer who has their spiritual blindness healed will be able to "see" Him.

Peter and the Apostles experienced Christ's second coming on the Day of Pentecost. And like them, all of Christ's Elect down through this age have experienced it as well. Christ's is coming, was coming and will be coming back to His Elect:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Christ's second coming is a spiritual event and it is a reoccurring event. And as Paul said, when Christ comes the second time, He will "appear" unto salvation for those who are waiting for Him. Also, every eye (eyes which can "see") will see Him because Christ will eventually save all mankind. After each person is saved, Christ will "appear" to them - including those who pierced Him.

If Christ's second coming is a one time event at the end of the age, how can those who "pierced Him" see this event since they are presently dead and in the grave? They will remain dead until the bodily resurrection occurs. Also, how can "every eye" see Him if He only comes back at the end of the age? Most of the 100+ billions of people who have ever lived will also be dead and in the grave.

Take a look at what Rev 1:3 says. To be saved, a person must "keep" the sayings of the prophecy. If Christ's second coming is only a one time event at the end of the literal age, how can anyone ever hope to keep the sayings of the prophecy? The only way it would be possible is for Christ's second coming (when He brings salvation) to be a reoccurring event.

Also, verse 3 says the time is "at hand". That means Christ's second coming is already happening. It is not a future one-time event.

Do you believe the scriptures I posted? Do you believe that you must keep the sayings of the prophecies of Revelation to be saved? Do you believe that Christ's second coming is at hand and has been at hand since the time John received the vision?

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Christ says that He will come quickly. Is 1900+ years quickly?

None of the mainstream beliefs on the second coming of Christ are true. Those beliefs are clearly contradicted by scripture.

Joe

 

[CadyandZoe]

How do you justify the fact that the armies of the world who marshal themselves are not called to do so until the sixth bowl is poured! Do you just willy nilly retime the events as written to suit a need?

The trumpets and bowls are the wrath god pours out in the Day of the Lord! Teh minor prophets declared it

I don't understand your question.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear Mr. Nolette,
No where in scripture does it say that Christ will return to the earth physically and visible to the human eye at the end of this literal age.

Oh Yes it does!

Matt. 24
Acts 1
REv. 1.

Jesus promised Hew would come back to this earth and He will.

And even you rverse you quote shows He will. for it says the heavens must receive HIm, UNTIL! That means He stays in heaven until an event takes place and then returns.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't understand your question.

Well you said this:

The bowls are God's wrath against those who went to war with Israel at Armageddon.

But the bible says this:

Revelation 16

King James Version

​

16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon

So unless you have have an unwritten and unmentioned Battle of Armageddon- this is the only one that the bible speaks of and it doesn't even begin to happen until after teh 6th vial is poured out!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Oh Yes it does!

Matt. 24
Acts 1
REv. 1.

Jesus promised Hew would come back to this earth and He will.

And even you rverse you quote shows He will. for it says the heavens must receive HIm, UNTIL! That means He stays in heaven until an event takes place and then returns.

Dear Mr. Nolette,
Christ comes back to us to give us the Baptism of the Spirit (the Latter Rain) and then He appears spiritually to us. This is exactly what happened to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost.

The Old Covenant is outward and physical. The New Covenant is within and spiritual. God's Word must be rightly divided by these two covenants.

All the end-time prophecies are spiritually fulfilled within us. Matthew chapter 24 is a depiction of how Christ saves one of his Elect. It is spiritual because our salvation to be changed into a child of God. The physical has nothing to do with it.

The Pathway to Salvation shown in Mat ch. 24 happens to each of Christ's Elect during their lifetimes, before they physically die.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In that way, Christ comes "quickly" and the time of Christ's return is "at hand" and that is how His Elect "keep the sayings of the prophecy".

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear Mr. Nolette,
Christ comes back to us to give us the Baptism of the Spirit (the Latter Rain) and then He appears spiritually to us. This is exactly what happened to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost.

The Old Covenant is outward and physical. The New Covenant is within and spiritual. God's Word must be rightly divided by these two covenants.

All the end-time prophecies are spiritually fulfilled within us. Matthew chapter 24 is a depiction of how Christ saves one of his Elect. It is spiritual because our salvation to be changed into a child of God. The physical has nothing to do with it.

The Pathway to Salvation shown in Mat ch. 24 happens to each of Christ's Elect during their lifetimes, before they physically die.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In that way, Christ comes "quickly" and the time of Christ's return is "at hand" and that is how His Elect "keep the sayings of the prophecy".

Joe

I do not know what sect you belong to, but they have given you bad fruit my friend.

None of the promises God made to physical Israel are fulfilled in the church!

Acts 1:
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Visibly and physically!

Matt. 24:

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No the Bible as written ( and not rewritten as you write) shows Jesus returning physically! He also will fulfill HIs promises to national Israel as He said He would!

These teachers are telling you He is in the secret chambers (within) and Jesus is telling you to believe it not!

 

[RR144]

The rapture is most definitely a Scriptural teaching! While the name rapture is coined, its biblical technical name could be called the great snatching away!

The Greek word is harpagmo- which means to snatch, carry, draw, drag with force.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17​

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1 Thes. 4:15-17 is the classic passage quoted by those who believe in the rapture. The Greek word translated "coming" in verse 15, as in Matt. 24:37-39, is parousia, meaning presence; it covers the first, or secret stage of our Lord's Second Advent, when the world is in ignorance respecting His Second Advent and going about the ordinary affairs of life, prior to the second stage, His epiphaneia (bright shining, manifestation), or apokalupsis (uncovering, revelation), and the third stage, His basileia (Kingdom).

In 1 Thes. 4:15-17 we read: "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede, the old English meaning of prevent; compare ASV, Rotherham, etc.] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven … and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then [afterwards, Greek epeita, even as it is used to designate futurity elsewhere, e.g., in 1 Cor. 15:6, 7, 23, 46; Gal. 1:18, 21; 2:1; Heb. 7:27; Jas. 3:17; 4:14] we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

Of course, nothing in this text indicates that the saints remaining over to the time of the Lord's Second Coming would die; nor does anything in it teach that their human bodies would not die. This Scripture does not mention what change they would undergo before being joined to the Lord; in fact, a change is not mentioned here at all. But the same Apostle elsewhere informs us that a change would take place, because "flesh and blood"—human nature, human bodies—cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50)—therefore the saints would all be changed to spirit bodies, which are invisible to men's human eyes, and can come and go as the wind (John 3:8).

 

[FaithWillDo]

I do not know what sect you belong to, but they have given you bad fruit my friend.

None of the promises God made to physical Israel are fulfilled in the church!

Acts 1:
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Visibly and physically!

Matt. 24:

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No the Bible as written ( and not rewritten as you write) shows Jesus returning physically! He also will fulfill HIs promises to national Israel as He said He would!

These teachers are telling you He is in the secret chambers (within) and Jesus is telling you to believe it not!

Dear Mr Nolette,

Paul wholeheartedly disagrees with you.

The promises were made to spiritual Israel:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Physical Israel will not receive any of the promises. The flesh counts for nothing. The promises were made to the spiritual descendants of Abraham.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The seed of Abraham are those who are justified by faith, just as Abraham was justified by faith. For the most part, Abraham's physical seed will not receive the promise. Most are already in the grave waiting to be resurrected to judgment. They will not reign as Kings and Priests with Christ in the final age. They will suffer loss and will have weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many (the Gentiles) shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom (most of physical Israel) shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Joe

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well you said this:

The bowls are God's wrath against those who went to war with Israel at Armageddon.

But the bible says this:

Revelation 16​

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King James Version​

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16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon

So unless you have have an unwritten and unmentioned Battle of Armageddon- this is the only one that the bible speaks of and it doesn't even begin to happen until after teh 6th vial is poured out!

My mistake. Sorry. The point I wanted to make is that the bowls are wrath, not tribulation. They are called vials of wrath in (verse 1)

 

[Enoch111]

The rapture is NOT a scriptural teaching.

How can the Rapture NOT be a Scriptural teaching when it is embedded in Scripture? If you wish to substitute "caught up together" for the word "Rapture" that's fine, but since large numbers of Christians fully understand what the Rapture is, there is no need to use another term. "Rapture" is derived from the Latin "rapiemur" which is the translation for "caught up together" in the Latin Vulgate. The Greek word harpagesometha is what is being translated, which is a catching up or a snatching up of all the saints when Christ comes for His Bride. In fact the entire event is the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church.

This is the event when Christ comes like "a thief in the night" -- unannounced, unexpected, suddenly, and at any moment. And that is why Christ said "Therefore be ye also ready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh" (Mt 25:44).

 

[Johann]

Doesn't a "Thief in the night" come while people are sleeping...or gone?

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

 

[Johann]

After the believer is given their new spiritual vision with the Latter Rain, their Sun and the Moon will be darkened. This means that the believer will no longer receive their "truth" from this world (Satan's world) but will now only receive it directly from Christ.

This is a new one...believers will receive truth "directly" from Christ? You mean audibly?--apart from Scriptures?

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is a new one...believers will receive truth "directly" from Christ? You mean audibly?--apart from Scriptures?

Dear Johann,
Scripture is written in a "mystery" and in Christ's spiritual language. It's meaning is "veiled" from everyone except believers who have been converted. When a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the conversion point) Christ heals their spiritual blindness. The truth of Christ will then open up to them from scripture. With their new "eyes that can see", Christ will appear to them.

When Christ comes to the believer to give them the Latter Rain, they are in a "fallen away" spiritual condition and are walking in darkness (night). This is what it is meant when scripture says that Christ will come as a thief in the night. After Christ appears, He will bring judgment to the believer's false beliefs and carnality. This is "sudden destruction". As for the woman who is in travail, she represents the freewoman who is about to give birth to the new child of God.

Joe