Romans 6:22

[Johann]

Use your head man!

How can an unbeliever be standing on faith that he has no faith in?

Rom_5:2 Through him we have also R3obtained access by faithN1 into this grace R4in which we stand, and R5weN2 rejoiceN3 in hope of the glory of God.

Rom_11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you R2stand fast through faith. So R3do not become proud, but R4fear.

Rom_14:4 R16Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own masterN1 that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Who are you to pass judgement?

Rom_14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For R23we will all stand before R24the judgment seat of God;

1Co_15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers,N1 of the gospel R7I preached to you, which you received, R8in which you stand,

1Co_16:13 R26Be watchful, R1stand firm in the faith, R2act like men, R3be strong.

2Co_1:24 Not that we R19lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, for you stand firm R20in your faith.

Gal_5:1 For R19freedom Christ has R20set us free; R21stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to R22a yoke of R23slavery.

Eph_6:11 R7Put on R8the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against R9the schemes of the devil.

Eph_6:13 Therefore R16take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in R17the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

Eph_6:14 Stand therefore, R18having fastened on the belt of truth, and R19having put on the breastplate of righteousness,

Php_4:1 Therefore, my brothers,N1 whom I love and R10long for, R11my joy and R12crown, R13stand firm thus in the Lord, my beloved.

Col_4:12 R22Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always R23struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand R24mature and fully assured in all the will of God.

2Th_2:15 So then, brothers, R4stand firm and hold to R5the traditions that you were taught by us, either R6by our spoken word or by R6our letter.

1Ti_5:20 As for those who persist in sin, R5rebuke them in the presence of all, R6so that the rest may stand in fear.

2Ti_4:16 At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. R14May it not be charged against them!


1Pe_5:12 By R15Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, R16I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is R17the true grace of God. R18Stand firm in it.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and R26knock. R1If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, R2I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Just by reading these verses, excluding the Old Covenant, there's a lot of standing, and not in faith only. Allow me to rephrase, we ARE standing in faith, yet notice WHERE we are to stand.

You are in trouble, do you read your bible, or just selective verses?
And Amigo wanst to tell me I twist and wreck Romans 11? Interesting observation, I never hear scriptures from that side, but: "Hit the trenches"

For your information, we are not here to deliberately or willfully "twist" the holy writ, for we are going to stand before a holy Judge, Christ Jesus, to give an ACCOUNT of how we handled the Scriptures, we all make mistakes, and I don't know it all, but I make it my business to study the Scriptures and read around it, and redeem the little, precious time I have for His glory and honor, not my own.

Get that?

 

[Johann]

That's your problem. You are obsessed with attacking OSAS so you read scripture in a way that fits your narrative. ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which should be a red flag for you. It's your insanity that we need a break from.

Amen and amen, and a triple amen, this is not a coherent dialog, but a "slog it out" and I have been in debates myself. Brother, do yourself a favor, and download that software, since we want to rightly cutting straight the Scriptures and I am HUNGRY for God's word!

 

[Johann]

Not irrelevant one bit and the same applies to that audience. Not all professing believers are genuine believers. Eventually they are found out.

...even here, on this Forum.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@Johann @mailmandan

[shaking my head]

 

[Johann]

Not irrelevant one bit and the same applies to that audience. Not all professing believers are genuine believers. Eventually they are found out.

...even here, on this Forum.

[shaking my head]

Ever been in a debate brother? Where you have to show a rabbi, from the Old Covenant, and the Old Covenant only, that Messiah is the promised ben David? Or is it ben Yoseph?

The problem, in a debate, you re forced to use secondary sources say, on Isa 53, it WOULD be helpful if you could read this passage in Hebrew, and there are rules in any debate.....

Jewish tradition: Messiah or Hezekiah?
Influential medieval Jewish commentators Rashi and Abraham Ibn Ezra argued Isaiah 9:6–7 (5–6) was a prophecy about Hezekiah.

Yet the reference to a son of David makes us think of the promised Messiah (Psalm 2, 2 Samuel 7). So it is not a surprise that other Rabbinic Jewish scholars associated these verses with the Messiah. For example, a passage from the Talmud (Tractate Derekh Eretz Zuta) referred to the child of Isaiah 9 as the Messiah. Similarly, the famous Jewish medieval scholar, Rambam (Maimonides) in his Epistle to Yemen:

The Messiah, indeed, ranks after Moses in eminence and distinction… Six appellations were divinely conferred upon him as the following passage indicates: “For a child is born unto us, and a son is given unto us, and the government is upon his shoulder, and he is called Pele, Yoetz, el, Gibbor, Abiad, Sar-Shalom.” (Isaiah 9:6(5)).

It is possible to reconcile these two interpretations. As a son of David, Hezekiah partially fulfilled this prophecy (leading Israel to temporary deliverance from Assyria).

But we know he did not reign forever as predicted in verse 7(6). After his death, the evil King Manasseh took the throne (2 Kings 20:16–21). Judah was then exiled from the land four generations later.

The promise of eternal peace would have to wait for the Messiah to come in the future. As noted in another passage in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 94a), Hezekiah had failed to achieve the final redemption for God’s people.

Past or Future?
A clear difference between Jewish and Christian translations is whether to render Isaiah 9:6(5) in the past or future tense. Most modern Jewish translations, such as the Chabad website, use the past tense:

For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

How we interpret the verse depends on whether it was about Hezekiah or the Messiah. The Hebrew reads as something that has already happened.

But it is not uncommon for prophets in the Hebrew Bible to speak of the future in this way. For example, Psalm 3:4(5) literally states ‘he answered me’. The Psalmist conveyed his confidence that God will answer him by use of the past tense. As pointed out by the famous Jewish commentator Radak (David Kimchi):

And in the greater part of prophecy this is found, that the speaker uses a past tense in place of a future; for it is as though the thing had already happened when it has been spoken in the Holy Spirit. (Radak on the Psalms, Psalm 3:5)

Since the child of Isaiah 9:6–7(5–6) will rule forever, this is unlikely to be about Hezekiah. Therefore, Isaiah used the past tense to indicate his confidence in the fulfilment of this prophecy.

The names of God or the child?
Another difference between modern Christian and Jewish translations is how to render the names in verse 6(5). Do they refer to God or the child?

The oldest Jewish translation (the Septuagint, a Greek translation) attributes all names to the child. However, for Rashi, only “prince of peace” referred to the child Hezekiah.

Although the Chabad translation follows Rashi, not all Jewish commentators agreed. For example, Ibn Ezra, and a passage from the Talmud (Sanhedrin 94a) interpreted that all names in this verse belonged to the child. Rambam also thought these names described the child (see his letter to Yemen above).

Therefore, there was no consensus on this matter in Jewish tradition. Christian translations (like the NIV) are consistent with many Rabbinic scholars’ interpretations.

I'll be so kind as to give you this link

https://medium.com/interfaith-now/i...f6f002be07#:~:text=For to us a child is born,

You can see how the rabbis use commentaries, why can't I? I am very selective in using commentaries

 

[Johann]

...even here, on this Forum.

Ever been in a debate brother? Where you have to show a rabbi, from the Old Covenant, and the Old Covenant only, that Messiah is the promised ben David?
The problem, in a debate, you re forced to use secondary sources say, on Isa 53

Jewish tradition: Messiah or Hezekiah?
Influential medieval Jewish commentators Rashi and Abraham Ibn Ezra argued Isaiah 9:6–7 (5–6) was a prophecy about Hezekiah.

Yet the reference to a son of David makes us think of the promised Messiah (Psalm 2, 2 Samuel 7). So it is not a surprise that other Rabbinic Jewish scholars associated these verses with the Messiah. For example, a passage from the Talmud (Tractate Derekh Eretz Zuta) referred to the child of Isaiah 9 as the Messiah. Similarly, the famous Jewish medieval scholar, Rambam (Maimonides) in his Epistle to Yemen:

The Messiah, indeed, ranks after Moses in eminence and distinction… Six appellations were divinely conferred upon him as the following passage indicates: “For a child is born unto us, and a son is given unto us, and the government is upon his shoulder, and he is called Pele, Yoetz, el, Gibbor, Abiad, Sar-Shalom.” (Isaiah 9:6(5)).

It is possible to reconcile these two interpretations. As a son of David, Hezekiah partially fulfilled this prophecy (leading Israel to temporary deliverance from Assyria).

But we know he did not reign forever as predicted in verse 7(6). After his death, the evil King Manasseh took the throne (2 Kings 20:16–21). Judah was then exiled from the land four generations later.

The promise of eternal peace would have to wait for the Messiah to come in the future. As noted in another passage in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 94a), Hezekiah had failed to achieve the final redemption for God’s people.

Past or Future?
A clear difference between Jewish and Christian translations is whether to render Isaiah 9:6(5) in the past or future tense. Most modern Jewish translations, such as the Chabad website, use the past tense:

For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

How we interpret the verse depends on whether it was about Hezekiah or the Messiah. The Hebrew reads as something that has already happened.

But it is not uncommon for prophets in the Hebrew Bible to speak of the future in this way. For example, Psalm 3:4(5) literally states ‘he answered me’. The Psalmist conveyed his confidence that God will answer him by use of the past tense. As pointed out by the famous Jewish commentator Radak (David Kimchi):

And in the greater part of prophecy this is found, that the speaker uses a past tense in place of a future; for it is as though the thing had already happened when it has been spoken in the Holy Spirit. (Radak on the Psalms, Psalm 3:5)

Since the child of Isaiah 9:6–7(5–6) will rule forever, this is unlikely to be about Hezekiah. Therefore, Isaiah used the past tense to indicate his confidence in the fulfilment of this prophecy.

The names of God or the child?
Another difference between modern Christian and Jewish translations is how to render the names in verse 6(5). Do they refer to God or the child?

The oldest Jewish translation (the Septuagint, a Greek translation) attributes all names to the child. However, for Rashi, only “prince of peace” referred to the child Hezekiah.

Although the Chabad translation follows Rashi, not all Jewish commentators agreed. For example, Ibn Ezra, and a passage from the Talmud (Sanhedrin 94a) interpreted that all names in this verse belonged to the child. Rambam also thought these names described the child (see his letter to Yemen above).

Therefore, there was no consensus on this matter in Jewish tradition. Christian translations (like the NIV) are consistent with many Rabbinic scholars’ interpretations.

I'll be so kind as to give you this link

Isaiah 9: What did the Prophet Isaiah say about Jesus?

Isaiah’s prophecy about the Messiah and his divine names

medium.com

You can see how the rabbis use commentaries, why can't I? I am very selective in using commentaries

You are lost?

 

[mailmandan]

...even here, on this Forum.

Exactly! If a Pastor of a church (especially a very large church) addresses the congregation on Sunday morning, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ," and the sermon is for believers, would you automatically assume that EVERYONE who attended church that Sunday morning (visitors and members alike) absolutely MUST ALL be genuine believers? Of course not.

 

[Johann]

[shaking my head

1. How did Israel miss God's way of salvation?

2. What two reasons does Paul give to prove that God has not rejected Israel?

3. Why did God harden the Jews' hearts? How?

4. What is meant by the concept of a Jewish "remnant" (Rom. 11:2-5)?

5. Define the term "mystery" in the NT.

6. What does 11:26 mean? Why? How is it related to 9:6?

7. What warning does Paul give to the Gentile believers (Rom. 11:17-24)?

 

[Johann]

Exactly! If a Pastor of a church (especially a very large church) addresses the congregation on Sunday morning, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ," and the sermon is for believers, would you automatically assume that EVERYONE who attended church that Sunday morning (visitors and members alike) absolutely MUST ALL be genuine believers? Of course not.

Only the elect, maybe one or two, and by the elect I don't mean it in a Calvinistic sense

But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

I really appreciate your assistance and contribution brother.
Stay strong in Christ Jesus
J.

 

[Johann]

1. How did Israel miss God's way of salvation?

2. What two reasons does Paul give to prove that God has not rejected Israel?

3. Why did God harden the Jews' hearts? How?

4. What is meant by the concept of a Jewish "remnant" (Rom. 11:2-5)?

5. Define the term "mystery" in the NT.

6. What does 11:26 mean? Why? How is it related to 9:6?

7. What warning does Paul give to the Gentile believers (Rom. 11:17-24)?

Can you answer?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

would you automatically assume that EVERYONE who attended church that Sunday morning (visitors and members alike) absolutely MUST ALL be genuine believers?

You continue posting irrelevant reasonings…

“Make believers” in your church don’t disannul or change a pastor’s instruction to the believers.

Unbelievers don’t stand on something they never got on to begin with.

Man, why am I back in here!!!

 

[mailmandan]

Only the elect, maybe one or two, and by the elect I don't mean it in a Calvinistic sense

But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

I really appreciate your assistance and contribution brother.
Stay strong in Christ Jesus
J.

Amen! Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?” (Deuteronomy 31:16-17)

 

[mailmandan]

You continue posting irrelevant reasonings…

“Make believers” in your church don’t disannul or change a pastor’s instruction to the believers.

Unbelievers don’t stand on something they never got on to begin with.

Man, why am I back in here!!!

I still don't expect you to understand. Make believers stand on their profession of faith yet continuing is the demonstrative evidence that faith really has been rooted and established from the start. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) We are saved when we believe the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) unless you believe in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

 

[Johann]

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?” (Deuteronomy 31:16-17)

Now, what has this particular quotation have to do with Ps 37.28?

Judgment, i.e. just judgment, or righteousness, as that word is oft taken, as hath been showed again and again; either,
1. In himself, i.e. he loveth to execute judgment upon the wicked, and for the righteous; which he doth in the manner expressed in this Psalm. Or,
2. In the righteous themselves, whose justice, and piety, and charity he sees and loves, and will reward it.

His saints; or, his favourites; or, they to whom he hath a good will; or, his bountiful ones, who exercise benignity and charity to others.

Care to explain that for me?

 

[mailmandan]

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?” (Deuteronomy 31:16-17)

Speaking of the Israelites. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Make believers stand on their profession of faith yet continuing is the demonstrative that faith really is rooted and established from the start

It doesn’t matter!

The message was for the genuine believers that are standing in the faith.

If you were talking to a group of men and warned them about a danger in a certain area, and some of those men ignored your warning and fell to that danger, does it make a difference that they weren’t really obedient listeners?

Didn’t the warning profit the obedient listener nonetheless.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@mailmandan

“And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.” (1 Chronicles 28:9)

 

[Johann]

“And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.” (1 Chronicles 28:9)

28:9 "with a whole heart and a willing mind" This is imagery of full and complete devotion and obedience (cf. Deut. 18:13; 1 Kgs. 8:61; 15:14; 2 Kgs. 20:3; 1 Chr. 29:9,17-19; Isa. 38:3). Solomon was this kind of faithful follower at first but in his old age his young non-Israelite wives turned his heart away from YHWH (cf. 1 Kings 11); also note 2 Chr. 19:9; 25:2,14.

"the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts" This is imagery of God's sovereign knowledge of all things (cf. 1 Sam. 2:3; 16:7; 1 Kgs. 8:29; 2 Chr. 6:30; Ps. 7:9; 33:15; 44:21; 139:1-4; Pro. 15:11; 21:2; 24:12; Jer. 11:20; 17:9-10; 20:12; Luke 16:15; Acts 1:24; 15:8; Rom. 8:27). No one informs YHWH about anything!

"If you seek Him, He will let you find Him" What a wonderful combination of free will and Divine sovereignty (cf. Deut. 4:29; 2 Chr. 7:14; 15:2,4,15; Jer. 29:13).

For the Chronicler "seek" (BDB 205, KB 233) is a way to denote faithful followers (cf. 1 Chr. 16:10-11; Zeph. 2:3; NIDOTTE, vol. 1, p. 997).

Beautiful, isn't it?

 

[mailmandan]

It doesn’t matter!

The message was for the genuine believers that are standing in the faith.

If you were talking to a group of men and warned them about a danger in a certain area, and some of those men ignored your warning and fell to that danger, does it make a difference that they weren’t really obedient listeners?

Didn’t the warning profit the obedient listener nonetheless.

It matters. In regards to receiving eternal life, only genuine believers will receive it. Certain areas of everyday living is not the same thing. We all have made mistakes from not listening, suffered some type of consequence and learned from it.