The answer of hell and its origins

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

ha no you will not either lol
but idc tbh
it is your cock-sureness that Scripture informs me makes you deceived, wadr

“its like this and like that and like this”

i hope you get that i am only suggesting you allow for the possibility that your JW handlers do not have everything in the future nailed down ok

I most certainly don't agree with those that believe in the Trinity or the immortality of the soul or the Hellfire doctrine. I know for a fact these doctrines are not in scripture. You can be against me saying that because I'm so certain about what I believe the truth is in the scriptures. I believe people will say I'm lying or teaching falsehood because that's how they treated Jesus. So just as the majority of the Jews didn't believe Jesus I don't expect the majority to believe what I say is true.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think in this case you do what you are accusing Christendom of doing. Revelation details these are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. Calling 144,000 Jews Jehovah’s Witnesses is kind of like calling red blue. I don’t know of any other religion that makes such a claim (though I wouldn’t be surprised).

The problem is, you don't listen...we have never said that the "144,000 Jews" are "Jehovah' Witnesses" in the sense that you are suggesting. This is not just our denomination...it is what the scriptures themselves call God's worshippers. The fleshly Jews were called "Jehovah's Witnesses" (Isaiah 43:10) and the Christians also were described as a "cloud of witnesses". (Hebrews 12:1) It is in that sense that all who are saved are Jehovah's Witnesses because it is what they do in practice.....actively witness for Jehovah as Jesus did....in Rev 3:14, Jesus calls himself "the faithful and true witness".

I think you do something that we all do. Much like YECs start with the premise that the earth is 6,000 years old then look for evidence that supports their position you approach scripture the same way, you look for what supports your position. I don’t mean this as a personal attack we all do it. Though we deny it we all have bias ( yes, even you). . If I asked you what your favorite scriptures are they would probably be those that affirm your beliefs. We’re probably all guilty of that.

I allow the scriptures to speak for themselves actually. I have no need to make them say what they clearly do not....Christendom has done that, but we all must decide for ourselves who the devil has hoodwinked with his deceptions, and who has been "drawn" by the Father to his truth. (John 6:44; 65)
History reveals that Jehovah's people have never been 'mainstream'. Their beliefs and practices have always been different to what the people of the nations accepted as religious truth. Its not how similar they are to these false religions, but how different they are in practice.

You are very knowledgeable but you are also very condescending.

I have been studying the Bible for 50 years, carefully researching everything that I believe to make sure that it is in line with what the entirety of the scriptures teach. When I came across something that raised a red flag, I did not ignore it or pass it off as unimportant...I researched it from all the resources I could find. In these later decades, that has been made so much easier by means of the internet...knowledge is now available to all at the click of a mouse, so there is no excuse to believe what we have always believed, just because it was always accepted by the masses as truth. In my experience, having been raised in Christendom, I knew what bothered me and what conduct I considered unacceptable because it was in direct conflict with what the scriptures taught. The topic we are not allowed to speak about was my first port of call because it never made a lick of sense and no one could explain it clearly from the scriptures. I found out that the reason for that was because it wasn't found in the Bible at all, but like many other doctrines accepted in Christendom, were adoptions from paganism and grafted over ambiguous scripture and made to appear as if they were the truth.

You might reach more people by not insulting their intelligence and overloading them with information. I didn’t mean to insult you by saying your belief was strange maybe uncommon is a better word. I don’t want to be your enemy I just disagree with you. Oh and Barney can speak for himself I’m sure, he seems like an intelligent person.

Telling the truth is not insulting to anyone, unless they are prideful themselves. Sharing knowledge is not insulting either as we all have choices about what we want to read. Those who are interested can do that, and those that aren't...well that is their business. Jesus never forced the truth on anyone, but he provided his listeners with a lot to ponder over. I love the detail because it explains so much more than just a cursory reading.

I don't have to be your enemy.....nor do I want to insult anyone....I just want to tell the truth about what I have learned over many years of study.....people are free to believe it or not.....I am a witness for Jehovah, just like my Master.

 

[RLT63]

Most people do, we all must make our choice what truth the scriptures are teaching. I understand that. But just as you disagree with me I disagree with what most people teach is the truth from the scriptures. I don't believe the True God is a torturous person. I believe when most people see the word torment in the scriptures they believe it can only mean literal pain from fire. But the scriptures show this is impossible because human beings don't have any kind of intelligent person in their flesh and blood human bodies. The scriptures show that after God formed the flesh and blood human body from the dust of the ground he blew the breath(spirit) of life into the flesh and blood human body and it was the flesh and blood human body that became a living soul or living person. So human beings don't have living souls or have living persons in their flesh and blood human body. Human beings are living souls or living persons. So human beings don't have living souls or living persons in their flesh and blood human body that separated at death. So it's impossible for a human being who is a living soul or living person to feel anything when a he/she dies. The flesh and blood human body ceases to exist as a living soul or living person so since there is no living person in existence when a human dies it's impossible for him/her to feel anything after death. If a human being who is a living soul or living person were able to feel, smell, talk, see, think, then that human being isn't dead. So anyone saying a human being feels, smells, thinks, after that human being dies they're incorrect when saying that or believing that.

What do you do with this passage?

Mar 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, intothe fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fireis not quenched.

Mar 9:45 - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feetto be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:46 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire-is not quenched.

Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mar 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. I have a lot of questions about Hell but I’m not ready to write it off.

 

[RLT63]

The problem is, you don't listen...we have never said that the "144,000 Jews" are "Jehovah' Witnesses" in the sense that you are suggesting. This is not just our denomination...it is what the scriptures themselves call God's worshippers. The fleshly Jews were called "Jehovah's Witnesses" (Isaiah 43:10) and the Christians also were described as a "cloud of witnesses". (Hebrews 12:1) It is in that sense that all who are saved are Jehovah's Witnesses because it is what they do in practice.....actively witness for Jehovah as Jesus did....in Rev 3:14, Jesus calls himself "the faithful and true witness".

I allow the scriptures to speak for themselves actually. I have no need to make them say what they clearly do not....Christendom has done that, but we all must decide for ourselves who the devil has hoodwinked with his deceptions, and who has been "drawn" by the Father to his truth. (John 6:44; 65)
History reveals that Jehovah's people have never been 'mainstream'. Their beliefs and practices have always been different to what the people of the nations accepted as religious truth. Its not how similar they are to these false religions, but how different they are in practice.

I have been studying the Bible for 50 years, carefully researching everything that I believe to make sure that it is in line with what the entirety of the scriptures teach. When I came across something that raised a red flag, I did not ignore it or pass it off as unimportant...I researched it from all the resources I could find. In these later decades, that has been made so much easier by means of the internet...knowledge is now available to all at the click of a mouse, so there is no excuse to believe what we have always believed, just because it was always accepted by the masses as truth. In my experience, having been raised in Christendom, I knew what bothered me and what conduct I considered unacceptable because it was in direct conflict with what the scriptures taught. The topic we are not allowed to speak about was my first port of call because it never made a lick of sense and no one could explain it clearly from the scriptures. I found out that the reason for that was because it wasn't found in the Bible at all, but like many other doctrines accepted in Christendom, were adoptions from paganism and grafted over ambiguous scripture and made to appear as if they were the truth.


Telling the truth is not insulting to anyone, unless they are prideful themselves. Sharing knowledge is not insulting either as we all have choices about what we want to read. Those who are interested can do that, and those that aren't...well that is their business. Jesus never forced the truth on anyone, but he provided his listeners with a lot to ponder over. I love the detail because it explains so much more than just a cursory reading.

I don't have to be your enemy.....nor do I want to insult anyone....I just want to tell the truth about what I have learned over many years of study.....people are free to believe it or not.....I am a witness for Jehovah, just like my Master.

Isaiah 43:10 doesn’t say Jehovah’s Witnesses
Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me. —-And I am not mistaken about what you teach about the 144,000, I understand what you’re saying I just don’t agree.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isaiah 43:10 doesn’t say Jehovah’s Witnesses
Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me. —-And I am not mistaken about what you teach about the 144,000, I understand what you’re saying I just don’t agree.

Again, you are not listening.....Who is the "LORD" here ?

Did the Jews know who their LORD was?
Isaiah 43:10-12....from the Jewish Tanakh....

"You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.		יאַתֶּ֚ם עֵדַי֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וְעַבְדִּ֖י אֲשֶׁ֣ר בָּחָ֑רְתִּי לְמַ֣עַן תֵּ֠דְעוּ וְתַֽאֲמִ֨ינוּ לִ֚י וְתָבִ֙ינוּ֙ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י ה֔וּא לְפָנַי֙ לֹֽא־נ֣וֹצַר אֵ֔ל וְאַֽחֲרַ֖י לֹ֥א יִֽהְיֶֽה:
I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.		יאאָֽנֹכִ֥י אָֽנֹכִ֖י יְהֹוָ֑ה וְאֵ֥ין מִבַּלְעָדַ֖י מוֹשִֽׁיעַ:
I told and I saved, and I made heard and there was no stranger among you, and you are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and I am God."		יבאָֽנֹכִ֞י הִגַּ֚דְתִּי וְהוֹשַׁ֙עְתִּי֙ וְהִשְׁמַ֔עְתִּי וְאֵ֥ין בָּכֶ֖ם זָ֑ר וְאַתֶּ֥ם עֵדַ֛י נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֖ה וַֽאֲנִי־אֵֽל:

The "Lord" is Yahweh (Jehovah in English) in all three verses......so all of God's people were his witnesses.....not in wearing a label that merely identified them as Israelites, but in their conduct and in how well they obeyed his voice.

Jesus was a "faithful and true witness" for his Father, making him also one of Jehovah's Witnesses (Rev 3:14).....it's not a label, but a description.....

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

What do you do with this passage?

Mar 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, intothe fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fireis not quenched.

Mar 9:45 - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feetto be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mar 9:46 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire-is not quenched.

Mar 9:47 - And if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mar 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. I have a lot of questions about Hell but I’m not ready to write it off.

Jesus Christ wasn't being literal when he said this at Mark 9:43-48. Jesus was using hyperbole. He was saying that a person should be willing to give up something as precious as a hand, a foot, or an eye rather than allow it to cause him to stumble into unfaithfulness. He was obviously not encouraging self-mutilation or implying that a person was somehow subservient to the will of his limbs or eyes. (Mark 9:45, 47) He meant that a person should deaden a body member, or treat it as if it were severed from the body, rather than use it to commit a sin. (Compare Colossians 3:5) He should allow nothing to hinder him from gaining life.
We all know how important a hand, a foot, an eye is to us. But if anything that we view as being important to us as a hand, foot or eye, is hindering us or causing us to stumble and become unfaithful and from gaining eternal life then we should cut it out of our lives.

The Greek word Gehenna that is inaccurately translated hellfire was the name for the Valley of Hinnom, south and southwest of ancient Jerusalem. (Jeremiah 7:31) It was prophetically spoken of as a place where dead bodies would be strewn. (Jeremiah 7:32; 19:6) There is no evidence that living animals or living humans were thrown into Gehenna to be burned alive or tormented. So the place could not symbolize an invisible region where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire. Rather, Gehenna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize the eternal punishment of “second death,” that is, everlasting destruction, annihilation. (Revelation 20:14; Matthew 5:22; 10:28)

 

[RLT63]

Jesus Christ wasn't being literal when he said this at Mark 9:43-48. Jesus was using hyperbole. He was saying that a person should be willing to give up something as precious as a hand, a foot, or an eye rather than allow it to cause him to stumble into unfaithfulness. He was obviously not encouraging self-mutilation or implying that a person was somehow subservient to the will of his limbs or eyes. (Mark 9:45, 47) He meant that a person should deaden a body member, or treat it as if it were severed from the body, rather than use it to commit a sin. (Compare Colossians 3:5) He should allow nothing to hinder him from gaining life.
We all know how important a hand, a foot, an eye is to us. But if anything that we view as being important to us as a hand, foot or eye, is hindering us or causing us to stumble and become unfaithful and from gaining eternal life then we should cut it out of our lives.

The Greek word Gehenna that is inaccurately translated hellfire was the name for the Valley of Hinnom, south and southwest of ancient Jerusalem. (Jeremiah 7:31) It was prophetically spoken of as a place where dead bodies would be strewn. (Jeremiah 7:32; 19:6) There is no evidence that living animals or living humans were thrown into Gehenna to be burned alive or tormented. So the place could not symbolize an invisible region where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire. Rather, Gehenna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize the eternal punishment of “second death,” that is, everlasting destruction, annihilation. (Revelation 20:14; Matthew 5:22; 10:28)

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire-is not quenched.

 

[bbyrd009]

I most certainly don't agree with those that believe in the Trinity or the immortality of the soul or the Hellfire doctrine. I know for a fact these doctrines are not in scripture. You can be against me saying that because I'm so certain about what I believe the truth is in the scriptures. I believe people will say I'm lying or teaching falsehood because that's how they treated Jesus. So just as the majority of the Jews didn't believe Jesus I don't expect the majority to believe what I say is true.

hopefully on some level you get that i am not saying you are lying, nor teaching falsehood, Barney, bc i do not know either :)
but i do know you cant Quote “Jesus, returning,” and i thought that might give you pause? You might at least qualify your statements there a little

 

[bbyrd009]

Isaiah 43:10 doesn’t say Jehovah’s Witnesses
Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me. —-And I am not mistaken about what you teach about the 144,000, I understand what you’re saying I just don’t agree.

i actually hold with quite a few JW tenets, and almost went that way. The use of the term “Jehovah” got me searching (pre-internet) and when i found its origins, i took it to the JW handlers, and didnt like their response

 

[RLT63]

Again, you are not listening.....Who is the "LORD" here ?

Did the Jews know who their LORD was?
Isaiah 43:10-12....from the Jewish Tanakh....

"You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.		יאַתֶּ֚ם עֵדַי֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וְעַבְדִּ֖י אֲשֶׁ֣ר בָּחָ֑רְתִּי לְמַ֣עַן תֵּ֠דְעוּ וְתַֽאֲמִ֨ינוּ לִ֚י וְתָבִ֙ינוּ֙ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י ה֔וּא לְפָנַי֙ לֹֽא־נ֣וֹצַר אֵ֔ל וְאַֽחֲרַ֖י לֹ֥א יִֽהְיֶֽה:
I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.		יאאָֽנֹכִ֥י אָֽנֹכִ֖י יְהֹוָ֑ה וְאֵ֥ין מִבַּלְעָדַ֖י מוֹשִֽׁיעַ:
I told and I saved, and I made heard and there was no stranger among you, and you are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and I am God."		יבאָֽנֹכִ֞י הִגַּ֚דְתִּי וְהוֹשַׁ֙עְתִּי֙ וְהִשְׁמַ֔עְתִּי וְאֵ֥ין בָּכֶ֖ם זָ֑ר וְאַתֶּ֥ם עֵדַ֛י נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֖ה וַֽאֲנִי־אֵֽל:

The "Lord" is Yahweh (Jehovah in English) in all three verses......so all of God's people were his witnesses.....not in wearing a label that merely identified them as Israelites, but in their conduct and in how well they obeyed his voice.

Jesus was a "faithful and true witness" for his Father, making him also one of Jehovah's Witnesses (Rev 3:14).....it's not a label, but a description.....

Again the Jews are great when they agree with you, apostates who missed their messiah when they don’t.

 

[RLT63]

I most certainly don't agree with those that believe in the Trinity or the immortality of the soul or the Hellfire doctrine. I know for a fact these doctrines are not in scripture. You can be against me saying that because I'm so certain about what I believe the truth is in the scriptures. I believe people will say I'm lying or teaching falsehood because that's how they treated Jesus. So just as the majority of the Jews didn't believe Jesus I don't expect the majority to believe what I say is true.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Matthew 13:50
And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Matthew 23:33
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Luke 16:23
And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire-is not quenched.

It's hyper

i actually hold with quite a few JW tenets, and almost went that way. The use of the term “Jehovah” got me searching (pre-internet) and when i found its origins, i took it to the JW handlers, and didnt like their response

Jehovah is simply the pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants YHWH. No Jehovah's Witness has ever said that they know for a fact that Jehovah is the accurate pronunciation of those four Hebrew consonants YHWH. They have said and still say that Jehovah is pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants that's been used for centuries and see no reason it should be stopped being used. You nor anyone has said anything of any importance that teaches us that we should stop pronouncing the four Hebrew consonants YHWH as Jehovah. We understand that no one knows the accurate pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants YHWH which represent the personal name of the true God. But unlike many we're not going to believe the true God is a nameless person. The true God is the person who put his name YHWH in the scriptures. The ancient Hebrews had the ancient Hebrew language which was the language being used by the Hebrews at that time. So when they came across the four Hebrew consonants YHWH they knew how to pronounce the personal name of the true God represented by the four Hebrew consonants YHWH. No man or group of men had the right to take the personal name of God out of the scriptures. We will continue to pronounce the four Hebrew consonants YHWH as Jehovah. By doing this we show we don't agree with those who thought it was right to take God's personal name out of the scriptures. We show by pronuncing the four Hebrew consonants YHWH as Jehovah that we know this person whose name is YHWH which we pronounce as Jehovah is the only True God who created all things and is the source of all life and who is the Father and God of Jesus Christ. (John 20:17) Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of YHWH God (Jehovah).

 

[RLT63]

It's hyper

Jehovah is simply the pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants YHWH. No Jehovah's Witness has ever said that they know for a fact that Jehovah is the accurate pronunciation of those four Hebrew consonants YHWH. They have said and still say that Jehovah is pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants that's been used for centuries and see no reason it should be stopped being used. You nor anyone has said anything of any importance that teaches us that we should stop pronouncing the four Hebrew consonants YHWH as Jehovah. We understand that no one knows the accurate pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants YHWH which represent the personal name of the true God. But unlike many we're not going to believe the true God is a nameless person. The true God is the person who put his name YHWH in the scriptures. The ancient Hebrews had the ancient Hebrew language which was the language being used by the Hebrews at that time. So when they came across the four Hebrew consonants YHWH they knew how to pronounce the personal name of the true God represented by the four Hebrew consonants YHWH. No man or group of men had the right to take the personal name of God out of the scriptures. We will continue to pronounce the four Hebrew consonants YHWH as Jehovah. By doing this we show we don't agree with those who thought it was right to take God's personal name out of the scriptures. We show by pronuncing the four Hebrew consonants YHWH as Jehovah that we know this person whose name is YHWH which we pronounce as Jehovah is the only True God who created all things and is the source of all life and who is the Father and God of Jesus Christ. (John 20:17) Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of YHWH God (Jehovah).

The Jews did not pronounce the name, they regarded it as sacred and would just say “The name “ instead of pronouncing it.

 

[bbyrd009]

It's hyper

lol

Jehovah is simply the pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants YHWH

lol
nope

So when they came across the four Hebrew consonants YHWH they knew how to pronounce the personal name of the true God represented by the four Hebrew consonants YHWH

they do not either, sorry

We will continue to pronounce the four Hebrew consonants YHWH as Jehovah

go ahead, but "J" had not even been invented yet, idt

We show by pronuncing the four Hebrew consonants YHWH as Jehovah that we know this person whose name is YHWH which we pronounce as Jehovah is the only True God who created all things and is the source of all life and who is the Father and God of Jesus Christ

well, so you say, yes, but that really isnt what you are showing at all
understand idc what you call Yah, honest injun, and i even like/pity JWs, but you are showing a few things, and that is not one of then Barn

 

[bbyrd009]

But unlike many we're not going to believe the true God is a nameless person

yes, you do not comprehend, and are not interested in comprehending, the point of having an unpronounceable Name, and a holy of holies that has no idol in it. I have this against you. It is a sin. Now i dont go around telling JWs how lost they are anymore Barn, but this also reflects in your spouting of facts that are or at least may not be true. Gotta run, have a good day ok

know who the Masoretes were, Barney?
know why there is no such thing as a JW forum?
see, your Overlords—the ones between you and Christ—dont want you talking amongst yourselves, about stuff like that

 

[bbyrd009]

“
The Sopherim had a superstitious fear of pronouncing the divine name of God, Jehovah (Yahweh). Therefore, they altered it to read Adonai (Lord) at 134 places and to read Elohim (God) in some cases. The Masora lists these changes. The Sopherim or early scribes are also guilty of making 18 emendations, what they thought were helpful corrections, according to a note in the Masora. It appears that there were even more. It seems that these emendations were not done with bad intentions, as the Sopherim simply felt the text at these places were showing irreverence or disrespect for God or his human representatives.”

translation, “They knew better than Yah”

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Actually the ancient Jews did know the accurate pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants YHWH that represented the divine Name.

It wasn't the ancient Hebrews who didn't pronounce the name, instead they did pronounce the name YHWH. There is no sound evidence of any disappearance or disuse of the divine name in the B.C.E. period.

Many reference have suggested that the name YHWH ceased to be used by about 300 B.C.E. Evidence for this date supposedly was found in the absence of the Tetragrammaton (or a transliteration of it) in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which began about 280 B.C.E. It is true that the most complete manuscript copies of the Septuagint now known do consistently follow the practice of substituting the Greek words Kyʹri·os (Lord) or The·osʹ (God) for the Tetragrammaton.(YHWH) But these major manuscripts date back only as far as the fourth and fifth centuries C.E. More ancient copies, though in fragmentary form, have been discovered that prove that the earliest copies of the Septuagint did contain the
divine name YHWH.

One of these is the fragmentary remains of a papyrus roll of a portion of Deuteronomy, listed as P. Fouad Inventory No. 266. (Vol. 1, p. 326) It regularly presents the Tetragrammaton, written in square Hebrew characters, in each case of its appearance in the Hebrew text being translated. This papyrus is dated by scholars as being from the first century B.C.E., and thus it was written four or five centuries earlier than the manuscripts mentioned previously.

There is, no genuine basis for assigning any time earlier than the first and second centuries C.E. for the development of the superstitious view calling for discontinuance of the use of the divine name. The time did come, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ʼAdho·naiʹ (Sovereign Lord) or ʼElo·himʹ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E., the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ʼAdho·naiʹ or ʼElo·himʹ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name. If using the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures in later copies, the reader, of course, found the Tetragrammaton completely replaced by Kyrios and Theos.


I know Many modern scholars and Bible translators advocate following the tradition of eliminating the distinctive name of God. They not only claim that its uncertain pronunciation justifies such a course but also hold that the supremacy and uniqueness of the true God make unnecessary his having a particular name. But such a view receives no support from the inspired Scriptures, either those of pre-Christian times or those of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

The Tetragrammaton occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew text printed in Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia.The very frequency of the appearance of the name attests to its importance to the Bible’s Author, whose name it is. Its use throughout the Scriptures far outnumbers that of any of the titles, such as “Sovereign Lord” or “God,” that are applied to him.

In the days of Jesus and his disciples the divine name very definitely appeared in copies of the Scriptures, both in Hebrew manuscripts and in Greek manuscripts. Did Jesus and his disciples use the divine name in speech and in writing? In view of Jesus’ condemnation of Pharisaic traditions (Matthew 15:1-9), it would be highly unreasonable to conclude that Jesus and his disciples let Pharisaic ideas (such as are recorded in the Mishnah) govern them in this matter. Jesus’ own name means “YHWH(Jehovah) Is Salvation.” He stated: “I have come in the name of my Father” (John 5:43); he taught his followers to pray: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified” (Matthew 6:9); his works, he said, were done “in the name of my Father” (John 10:25); and, in prayer on the night of his death, he said he had made his Father’s name manifest to his disciples and asked, “Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name” (John 17:6, 11, 12, 26). In view of all of this, when Jesus quoted the Hebrew Scriptures or read from them he certainly used the divine name, YHWH(Jehovah). (Compare Matthew 4:4, 7, 10 with Deuteronomy 8:3; 6:13; 6:16; also Matthew 22:37 with Deuteronomy 6:5; and Matthew 22: 44 with Psalm 110: 1; as well as Luke 4:16-21 with Isaiah 61: 1, 2) Logically, Jesus’ disciples, including the inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures, would follow his example in this.
Why, then, is the name absent from the extant manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures or so-called New Testament? Because by the time those extant copies were made (from the third century C.E. onward) the original text of the writings of the apostles and disciples had been altered. Thus later copyists undoubtedly replaced the divine name in Tetragrammaton form with Kyrios and Theos. (Vol. 1, p. 324) This is precisely what the facts show was done in later copies of the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

yes, you do not comprehend, and are not interested in comprehending, the point of having an unpronounceable Name, and a holy of holies that has no idol in it. I have this against you. It is a sin. Now i dont go around telling JWs how lost they are anymore Barn, but this also reflects in your spouting of facts that are or at least may not be true. Gotta run, have a good day ok

know who the Masoretes were, Barney?
know why there is no such thing as a JW forum?
see, your Overlords—the ones between you and Christ—dont want you talking amongst yourselves, about stuff like that

Just what basis was originally assigned for discontinuing the use of the name is not definitely known. Some hold that the name was viewed as being too sacred for imperfect lips to speak. Yet the Hebrew Scriptures themselves give no evidence that any of God’s true servants ever felt any hesitancy about pronouncing his name. Non-Biblical Hebrew documents, such as the so-called Lachish Letters, show the name was used in regular correspondence in Palestine during the latter part of the seventh century B.C.E.
Another view is that the intent was to keep non-Jewish peoples from knowing the name and possibly misusing it. However, Jehovah himself said that he would ‘have his name declared in all the earth’ (Exodus 9:16; compare 1Chronicles 16:23, 24; Psalm 113:3; Malicah 1:11, 14), to be known even by his adversaries. (Isaiah 64:2) The name was in fact known and used by pagan nations both in pre-Common Era times and in the early centuries of the Common Era. (The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1976, Vol. XII, p. 119).

 

[bbyrd009]

Just what basis was originally assigned for discontinuing the use of the name is not definitely known. Some hold that the name was viewed as being too sacred for imperfect lips to speak. Yet the Hebrew Scriptures themselves give no evidence that any of God’s true servants ever felt any hesitancy about pronouncing his name. Non-Biblical Hebrew documents, such as the so-called Lachish Letters, show the name was used in regular correspondence in Palestine during the latter part of the seventh century B.C.E.
Another view is that the intent was to keep non-Jewish peoples from knowing the name and possibly misusing it. However, Jehovah himself said that he would ‘have his name declared in all the earth’ (Exodus 9:16; compare 1Chronicles 16:23, 24; Psalm 113:3; Malicah 1:11, 14), to be known even by his adversaries. (Isaiah 64:2) The name was in fact known and used by pagan nations both in pre-Common Era times and in the early centuries of the Common Era. (The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1976, Vol. XII, p. 119).

yes, ty for the lecture lol

Barney, you are entitled to believe whatever you like, and i dont even judge you on this, until you start posting your beliefs as facts, ok? If you want to believe that the word “Jehovah” was used even before the advent of the letter j, more power to you, idc.

i will even go further and say that i expect no change whatsoever to come from this, since lawyers have been presenting facts as truth since forever, or at least since the Masoretes temporarily got control of the Jewish religion, which is a quite fascinating story that your reference is likely also ignorant of, and lawyers cannot hear anything else either, generally speaking. Have a good one

 

[RLT63]

Actually the ancient Jews did know the accurate pronunciation of the four Hebrew consonants YHWH that represented the divine Name.

It wasn't the ancient Hebrews who didn't pronounce the name, instead they did pronounce the name YHWH. There is no sound evidence of any disappearance or disuse of the divine name in the B.C.E. period.

Many reference have suggested that the name YHWH ceased to be used by about 300 B.C.E. Evidence for this date supposedly was found in the absence of the Tetragrammaton (or a transliteration of it) in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which began about 280 B.C.E. It is true that the most complete manuscript copies of the Septuagint now known do consistently follow the practice of substituting the Greek words Kyʹri·os (Lord) or The·osʹ (God) for the Tetragrammaton.(YHWH) But these major manuscripts date back only as far as the fourth and fifth centuries C.E. More ancient copies, though in fragmentary form, have been discovered that prove that the earliest copies of the Septuagint did contain the
divine name YHWH.

One of these is the fragmentary remains of a papyrus roll of a portion of Deuteronomy, listed as P. Fouad Inventory No. 266. (Vol. 1, p. 326) It regularly presents the Tetragrammaton, written in square Hebrew characters, in each case of its appearance in the Hebrew text being translated. This papyrus is dated by scholars as being from the first century B.C.E., and thus it was written four or five centuries earlier than the manuscripts mentioned previously.

There is, no genuine basis for assigning any time earlier than the first and second centuries C.E. for the development of the superstitious view calling for discontinuance of the use of the divine name. The time did come, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ʼAdho·naiʹ (Sovereign Lord) or ʼElo·himʹ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E., the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ʼAdho·naiʹ or ʼElo·himʹ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name. If using the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures in later copies, the reader, of course, found the Tetragrammaton completely replaced by Kyrios and Theos.


I know Many modern scholars and Bible translators advocate following the tradition of eliminating the distinctive name of God. They not only claim that its uncertain pronunciation justifies such a course but also hold that the supremacy and uniqueness of the true God make unnecessary his having a particular name. But such a view receives no support from the inspired Scriptures, either those of pre-Christian times or those of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

The Tetragrammaton occurs 6,828 times in the Hebrew text printed in Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia.The very frequency of the appearance of the name attests to its importance to the Bible’s Author, whose name it is. Its use throughout the Scriptures far outnumbers that of any of the titles, such as “Sovereign Lord” or “God,” that are applied to him.

In the days of Jesus and his disciples the divine name very definitely appeared in copies of the Scriptures, both in Hebrew manuscripts and in Greek manuscripts. Did Jesus and his disciples use the divine name in speech and in writing? In view of Jesus’ condemnation of Pharisaic traditions (Matthew 15:1-9), it would be highly unreasonable to conclude that Jesus and his disciples let Pharisaic ideas (such as are recorded in the Mishnah) govern them in this matter. Jesus’ own name means “YHWH(Jehovah) Is Salvation.” He stated: “I have come in the name of my Father” (John 5:43); he taught his followers to pray: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified” (Matthew 6:9); his works, he said, were done “in the name of my Father” (John 10:25); and, in prayer on the night of his death, he said he had made his Father’s name manifest to his disciples and asked, “Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name” (John 17:6, 11, 12, 26). In view of all of this, when Jesus quoted the Hebrew Scriptures or read from them he certainly used the divine name, YHWH(Jehovah). (Compare Matthew 4:4, 7, 10 with Deuteronomy 8:3; 6:13; 6:16; also Matthew 22:37 with Deuteronomy 6:5; and Matthew 22: 44 with Psalm 110: 1; as well as Luke 4:16-21 with Isaiah 61: 1, 2) Logically, Jesus’ disciples, including the inspired writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures, would follow his example in this.
Why, then, is the name absent from the extant manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures or so-called New Testament? Because by the time those extant copies were made (from the third century C.E. onward) the original text of the writings of the apostles and disciples had been altered. Thus later copyists undoubtedly replaced the divine name in Tetragrammaton form with Kyrios and Theos. (Vol. 1, p. 324) This is precisely what the facts show was done in later copies of the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Informative. Good post