David in NJ
Well-Known Member
If i were clueless i would be speaking as you are now.............
Are you a catholic or similar?
The thief on the cross misconceptions
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If i were clueless i would be speaking as you are now.............
Are you a catholic or similar?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
It is all "in Christ." But if you think it is all "in water", enjoy the swim--but it is not "who" saves you.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Skinny-dippers are not permitted in the Kingdom of God.
Blood washed Saints are the only Ones who get Baptized in the Holy Spirit.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen! It's all about the Savior God and not the water god.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
You cannot change the "w" in the word 'now" to a "t".
You simply rewrite the verse to force it to fit your based theology.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Christ saves but He saved those who obey Him (Heb 5:9) by being water baptized (Mk 16:16) hence in that sense water baptism saves. That's why Peter in Acts 2 told them to "save yourselves" and they could by obeying Peter's command to be water baptized. Acts 22:16 Saul could "wash away thy sins" by being baptized.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
OK = Now you can SEE
Since Christ Saves us then the water is only an outward act of obedience that FIRST comes from within us who are Saved.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Christ saves, so the issue is who does He save and why. Nowhere does the Bible say Christ saves men randomly nor does He save men unconditionally. He saves those that CONDITIONALLY obey Him (Heb 5:9) by being water baptized.
The BIble puts obedience (repentance, confession, baptism) BEFORE salvation, Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Rom 10:9-10. Since water baptism is commanded and no one can be saved while living in disobedience to God's commands there can be no salvation apart from obedience.
Matt 28
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
How are disciples made? By baptizing them.....meaning there is no such thing as an unbaptized disciple/unbaptized Christian.
What is the Purpose of Baptism? (Part 1) - Apologetics Press
Matthew 28:19-20 constitutes the “marching orders” for the apostles in promulgating the spread of Christianity in the first century. Embedded within this “Great Commission” is one of the key prerequisites to being saved: water baptism. The precise wording expressed by Jesus provides...
apologeticspress.org
"Present participles (teaching & baptizing) indicate action that occurs at the same time as the action of the main verb (make disciples)."
The main verb is "make disciples". Jesus then tells us HOW disciples are made by using two present participles "teaching" and "baptizing".
"Southern Baptist scholar of New Testament Greek A.T. Robertson says these two participles in this passage are “modal participles," (14) i.e., they identify the manner, means, or method by which the action of the main verb is accomplished."
Hence the way disciples are made is by teaching and baptizing. The two present participles 'teaching' and 'baptizing' are occuring at the same time as the main verb 'make disciples'
"Observe that the English reader might be tempted to interpret Jesus’ command to mean that the apostles were first to make disciples, i.e., convert people to Christianity, and then baptize them, and then after baptizing them to teach them additional Christian doctrine. However, the Greek grammar of the passage, i.e., Matthew’s inspired Greek translation of Jesus’ (perhaps Aramaic) remarks, weighs heavily against this interpretation and clarifies succinctly Jesus’ intended meaning.(18)"
(14) A.T. Robertson (1934), A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Nashville, TN: Broadman), p. 1128.
(18) “Two or more participles…unconnected by kaiv, are frequently…joined to one principal verb”—George Winer (1870),A Treatise on the Grammar of the New Testament Greek, trans. W.F. Moulton (Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark), p. 433. Lange notes that “there is no kaiv before didavskonte$, so that baptizing and teaching are not strictly coordinate, as two successive acts”—John Lange (1884), A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Matthew (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons), 1:558. Again, in other words, both occur coincident with “make disciples.”
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
What came FIRST, the water or the SalvationChrist saves, so the issue is who does He save and why. Nowhere does the Bible say Christ saves men randomly nor does He save men unconditionally. He saves those that CONDITIONALLY obey Him (Heb 5:9) by being water baptized.
The BIble puts obedience (repentance, confession, baptism) BEFORE salvation, Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Rom 10:9-10. Since water baptism is commanded and no one can be saved while living in disobedience to God's commands there can be no salvation apart from obedience.
Matt 28
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
How are disciples made? By baptizing them.....meaning there is no such thing as an unbaptized disciple/unbaptized Christian.
What is the Purpose of Baptism? (Part 1) - Apologetics Press
Matthew 28:19-20 constitutes the “marching orders” for the apostles in promulgating the spread of Christianity in the first century. Embedded within this “Great Commission” is one of the key prerequisites to being saved: water baptism. The precise wording expressed by Jesus provides...
"Present participles (teaching & baptizing) indicate action that occurs at the same time as the action of the main verb (make disciples)."
The main verb is "make disciples". Jesus then tells us HOW disciples are made by using two present participles "teaching" and "baptizing".
"Southern Baptist scholar of New Testament Greek A.T. Robertson says these two participles in this passage are “modal participles," (14) i.e., they identify the manner, means, or method by which the action of the main verb is accomplished."
Hence the way disciples are made is by teaching and baptizing. The two present participles 'teaching' and 'baptizing' are occuring at the same time as the main verb 'make disciples'
"Observe that the English reader might be tempted to interpret Jesus’ command to mean that the apostles were first to make disciples, i.e., convert people to Christianity, and then baptize them, and then after baptizing them to teach them additional Christian doctrine. However, the Greek grammar of the passage, i.e., Matthew’s inspired Greek translation of Jesus’ (perhaps Aramaic) remarks, weighs heavily against this interpretation and clarifies succinctly Jesus’ intended meaning.(18)"
(14) A.T. Robertson (1934), A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Nashville, TN: Broadman), p. 1128.
(18) “Two or more participles…unconnected by kaiv, are frequently…joined to one principal verb”—George Winer (1870),A Treatise on the Grammar of the New Testament Greek, trans. W.F. Moulton (Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark), p. 433. Lange notes that “there is no kaiv before didavskonte$, so that baptizing and teaching are not strictly coordinate, as two successive acts”—John Lange (1884), A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Matthew (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons), 1:558. Again, in other words, both occur coincident with “make disciples.”
You need to read what the Apostle Peter said FIRST
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh
but made alive by the Spirit,
FIRST Christ/Salvation enters our hearts = the answer of a good conscience toward God
then a dunk in earthbound water that never can do for that which was already DONE
Remember these words from the SAVIOR = "IT IS FINISHED"
ScottA
Well-Known Member
God has placed life and death before us all. You have chosen, as have I. So be it.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it.
Peter said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.
Peter said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.
op: thief on cross Misconception? not saved/not water baptized?
Of course, there is another view of The THREE Baptisms Dispelling Confusion, eh?
IF any are in interested? ie: Three Bible Baptisms:
God's Context Of Prophecy/Covenants/Law for ISRAEL, YESTERDAY!:
►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄
The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =
A) water, For remission of sins/induction into Israeli "priesthood!":
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke_7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25; Isaiah 52:15)
+
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)
Prophecy/Law for ISRAEL!
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
Did not God Himself Change Dispensations, From law To Grace? And Provide:
His Other Context Of Mystery/GRACE! =
our "apostle to the Gentiles" for The Body Of CHRIST, TODAY!:
►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄
Today:
Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION {#13},
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians_4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; 1_Corinthians_12:13 KJB!)
Conclusion: God's ONE Baptism Today? = ONE
Or, Equals two? = water problem with God's Math! Correct?
----------------------------------
These have also been Very Helpful - instead of "biting and devouring one another,
Please review?:
Bible Answer To Confusing church Bewilderment!
and:
Water That Divides!!
-----------------------
Precious friends:
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!
Of course, there is another view of The THREE Baptisms Dispelling Confusion, eh?
IF any are in interested? ie: Three Bible Baptisms:
God's Context Of Prophecy/Covenants/Law for ISRAEL, YESTERDAY!:
►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄
The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =
A) water, For remission of sins/induction into Israeli "priesthood!":
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke_7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25; Isaiah 52:15)
+
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16)
Prophecy/Law for ISRAEL!
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
Did not God Himself Change Dispensations, From law To Grace? And Provide:
His Other Context Of Mystery/GRACE! =
our "apostle to the Gentiles" for The Body Of CHRIST, TODAY!:
►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄
Today:
Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION {#13},
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians_4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; 1_Corinthians_12:13 KJB!)
Conclusion: God's ONE Baptism Today? = ONE
Or, Equals two? = water problem with God's Math! Correct?
----------------------------------
These have also been Very Helpful - instead of "biting and devouring one another,
Please review?:
Bible Answer To Confusing church Bewilderment!
and:
Water That Divides!!
-----------------------
Precious friends:
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!
That's not what the scriptures teach. Tell that to Peter (ref. 1Peter 3:20-1), and the Lord (ref. Mark 16:15-16).
And how do you think you get "in Christ". It's by being baptized into him according to scripture.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
If you can hear it, water is natural, but the words are spirit.
Meaningless words won't undo the scriptures. They say what they say which you've not addressed by your meaningless words. Goodbye
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Sad
how so many faced with hard sayings and the spiritual reality of God, just walk away. Nothing new:John 6:60-67
Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe,”
and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
What's sad is when people reject plain scripture as you obviously do.Sad
John 6:60-67Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe,”and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
The natural man (1 Corinthians 2:14) can only seem to understand natural water. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we clearly read - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
We get in Christ by Spirit baptism and not by water baptism when we believe the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13) Plain, ordinary H20 has no power whatsoever to place us into the body of Christ. Now in what "sense" would a believer be "water baptized into Christ?" In the same "sense" that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses here and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it's only in that sense.
Just one small but important point of clarification for you. It's by water baptism that you receive the gift of the spirit and are added to the Lord's body, the church per Acts 2:38-47. You don't receive the sprit any other way, and the only way instances that the spirit fell unilaterally were recorded in Acts 2 and 10. In Acts 2, the spirit fellon the apostles as a sign to the Jews. In Acts 10 it fell on the Gentiles as a sign, after which they too required baptism.
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