commonly believed facets of the apostacy

[Stefcui]

Why not go back to the source, to that 1st Century Apostle, Apostle Paul? ...Take for instance (in Rom 11) his example with the wild shoots (gentiles) and natural shoots (Abraham's offspring through Isaac); Paul interplays them never confusing them or even having one replace the other. He even warns the gentiles about any boasting of 'branches being broken off that I may be grafted in'...sounds like some sort of replacement idea to me.

Prism, you misunderstand the early fathers and the value they give as a protection against apostasy. They are placed as foundations so near to the Apostles as teachers of the Church. I don't know how you could make your judgement that they “were full of disagreements amongst themselves”. What are you talking about? It doesn’t sound like you know the subject at all. Where is your evidence for such a statement? It seems to me that the only apostasy is the falling away from the teaching that the Church is the “Royal Priesthood”. (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9).

Paul is equally misrepresented in Roman and Galatians. I would be happy to discuss these scriptures in another thread step by step so everyone can be brought back from these “Jewish Myths” (Titus 1:14).

 

[veteran]

My main argument about the term Replacement Theology is how in recent times it is often used by Zionist Jews against the idea of the "commonwealth of Israel" and spiritual Israel ideas which Apostle Paul preached in Ephesians 2 and Romans to Gentile believers.

Fact is per Paul in Romans 11, God's promises continued... through the believing remnant of Israel, of which Christ's Apostles are evidence of, along with the establishing of Christ's Church of both believing Israelites and Gentiles as one body. And that's how God's Israel today is especially represented by Christ's Church.


Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(KJV)

Who are the rest that were blinded? The unbelieving Israelites who refuse Christ Jesus, and still... want to hold on to the Old Covenant, build another temple and start up Old Covenant style worship again in Jerusalem, and want all Christians to honor that false working.

 

[Stefcui]

Rom 11:7: "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded..."(KJV)

Who are the rest that were blinded? The unbelieving Israelites who refuse Christ Jesus, and still... want to hold on to the Old Covenant, build another temple and start up Old Covenant style worship again in Jerusalem, and want all Christians to honor that false working.

We actually agree on something... this is amazing. I didn't think the "Christian-Zionist" theology would sit with you too well either.

Steve

 

[veteran]

We actually agree on something... this is amazing. I didn't think the "Christian-Zionist" theology would sit with you too well either.

Steve

I refer mostly... to those of orthodox Judaism with that "rest were blinded". The greater portion of flesh born Israelites accepted Christ Jesus among the Gentiles. It's the "house of Judah" which were to retain their heritage from old Israel, and they are still... God's Israel too, for He's not done with them yet today.

 

[prism]

My main argument about the term Replacement Theology is how in recent times it is often used by Zionist Jews against the idea of the "commonwealth of Israel" and spiritual Israel ideas which Apostle Paul preached in Ephesians 2 and Romans to Gentile believers.

Fact is per Paul in Romans 11, God's promises continued... through the believing remnant of Israel, of which Christ's Apostles are evidence of, along with the establishing of Christ's Church of both believing Israelites and Gentiles as one body. And that's how God's Israel today is especially represented by Christ's Church.


Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(KJV)

Who are the rest that were blinded? The unbelieving Israelites who refuse Christ Jesus, and still... want to hold on to the Old Covenant, build another temple and start up Old Covenant style worship again in Jerusalem, and want all Christians to honor that false working.

And so the promise and explanation of God's mystery continues...

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, (future tense) as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom 11:25-29)

So we have the present Church made up of believing Christians and Jews, then the rapture, then God resumes His dealings with the remnant of Jews through the trib and His second coming resuming literal fulfillment of unfulfilled prophecies in their sacred writings.

 

[teamventure]

and then the Lord will divide the gentiles up matt 25 like sheap and goats, those who clothed his brethren the jews will live. God will rebuke the others.

 

[prism]

Prism, you misunderstand the early fathers and the value they give as a protection against apostasy. They are placed as foundations so near to the Apostles as teachers of the Church. I don't know how you could make your judgement that they “were full of disagreements amongst themselves”. What are you talking about? It doesn’t sound like you know the subject at all. Where is your evidence for such a statement? It seems to me that the only apostasy is the falling away from the teaching that the Church is the “Royal Priesthood”. (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9).

Paul is equally misrepresented in Roman and Galatians. I would be happy to discuss these scriptures in another thread step by step so everyone can be brought back from these “Jewish Myths” (Titus 1:14).

I agree that where the Fathers were in full agreement there is a safety net e.g. the early Creeds. But as an example of their often differences... http://www.lightshinesindarkness.com/contadiction_tradition.htm

and then the Lord will divide the gentiles up matt 25 like sheap and goats, those who clothed his brethren the jews will live. God will rebuke the others.

Yes, that explains best as to 'who' the least of these my brethren are.

 

[teamventure]

thanks prism. it's encouraging to see a Bibe believing christian in this thread.

 

[Stefcui]

I agree that where the Fathers were in full agreement there is a safety net e.g. the early Creeds. But as an example of their often differences... http://www.lightshin...n_tradition.htm

Your examples are silly…

Papias and Eusebius lived over 200 years apart; and the Millennium doctrine was continually speculated over, like it is today. If you studied history you would know this.

Polycrates and Victor differed on the date of Easter… this was one of the first disputes ever held in the church, and it came about because of different calendar observances. Polycrates observed the Syrian Calendar; whereas Victor observed the Roman calendar. This citing shows that you would use any facet of history to prop up your claims.

Irenaeus on Jesus’ age… Irenaeus was in error here, but his writings were tampered with by the very Gnostics he exposed. They had done this to many of the Fathers writing, particularly to Origen and Jerome (See Rufinus, The Adulteration of Books). Gnostics tried to discredit the church by adding false statements into their text, like this one. The good thing about what they did was they left a trail of evidence to show where they had changed things. You write about these subjects without knowing what you are talking about. You are a mouthpiece for the Gnostics.

Cyprian and Stephen had a disagreement over how to deal with heretics. There was a church council held to expose the problem. How could you bring up such a ridiculous this as this as evidence?

The same article goes on to talk about the “Septuagint Myth”. This is ridiculous and outrageous. You would expect a gnostic or Jew to bring up such comments, but coming from a Christian makes me very wary of you now Prism. You obviously have not even researched the Creeds... they were in more conflict than what your above examples ever were. It's a shame you so willingly spread the enemies lies for him.

Steve

 

[aspen]

Your examples are silly…

Papias and Eusebius lived over 200 years apart; and the Millennium doctrine was continually speculated over, like it is today. If you studied history you would know this.

Polycrates and Victor differed on the date of Easter… this was one of the first disputes ever held in the church, and it came about because of different calendar observances. Polycrates observed the Syrian Calendar; whereas Victor observed the Roman calendar. This citing shows that you would use any facet of history to prop up your claims.

Irenaeus on Jesus’ age… Irenaeus was in error here, but his writings were tampered with by the very Gnostics he exposed. They had done this to many of the Fathers writing, particularly to Origen and Jerome (See Rufinus, The Adulteration of Books). Gnostics tried to discredit the church by adding false statements into their text, like this one. The good thing about what they did was they left a trail of evidence to show where they had changed things. You write about these subjects without knowing what you are talking about. You are a mouthpiece for the Gnostics.

Cyprian and Stephen had a disagreement over how to deal with heretics. There was a church council held to expose the problem. How could you bring up such a ridiculous this as this as evidence?

The same article goes on to talk about the “Septuagint Myth”. This is ridiculous and outrageous. You would expect a gnostic or Jew to bring up such comments, but coming from a Christian makes me very wary of you now Prism. You obviously have not even researched the Creeds... they were in more conflict than what your above examples ever were. It's a shame you so willingly spread the enemies lies for him.

Steve

Fundamentalists believe doctrine never changed, Steve ;)

Augustine held some different beliefs than Aquinas - their theology is worthless.......

 

[Stefcui]

Fundamentalists believe doctrine never changed, Steve ;) Augustine held some different beliefs than Aquinas - their theology is worthless.......

It must make tears flow in heaven to hear those who have fought the good fight and given their lives... to hear these very ones written off with such a casual apathy... It scares me that christians have really become that careless.

 

[aspen]

It must make tears flow in heaven to hear those who have fought the good fight and given their lives... to hear these very ones written off with such a casual apathy... It scares me that christians have really become that careless.

I agree completely.

 

[veteran]

And so the promise and explanation of God's mystery continues...

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, (future tense) as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom 11:25-29)

So we have the present Church made up of believing Christians and Jews, then the rapture, then God resumes His dealings with the remnant of Jews through the trib and His second coming resuming literal fulfillment of unfulfilled prophecies in their sacred writings.

Believing Gentiles and Israelites make up Christ's Church, and that group of believing Israelites includes members from all the 12 tribes. But the Jews as a group does not specifically refer to all 12 tribes per history, nor per God's Word.

Christ's Church is going to still be here on earth to go through the tribulation, like our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught.

Then Christ at His second coming will bring with Him the asleep saints to earth, and will defeat His enemies and end the tribulation upon His faithful ones, and His Church still alive on earth will be joined to them and Him at Jerusalem, which will begin His thousand years Millennium reign.

During that Millennium reign, the rest of Israel that refused Christ, along with all Gentiles left that did the same, will learn doctrine and be taught by the overcomers in Christ Jesus.

Yes, that explains best as to 'who' the least of these my brethren are.

Any idea that our Lord Jesus was specifically pointing to unbelieving Jews as the least of His brethren is ludicrous.

Matt 12:50
50 For whosoever shall do the will of My Father Which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)

 

[ajdiamond]

2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thes 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Regarding these verses: Know ye not that you are the temple of God?

The day of Christ, the revelation and realizations of Christ in you, will not come until you see your man of sin. This is also described as the old man, the carnal mind, the self, the ego, the flesh. It is that thing that we live our lives centered in believing that we are that thing. That is, until Jesus showed us the way; which is walking in the spirit, Christ in us. Where it is no longer I (the self, man of sin) who lives, but Christ liveth in me. If any man will come after Christ, let him deny his self; for greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his self life for his friends.

And the revealing of the man of sin cannot come while one is in it. We need fall away from it--an inner movement of stepping back from the self--and observe it from a new place. The phrase 'fall away' carries the meaning of divorcement. We divorce our carnal self so that we might be married, yoked, one, with Christ. For one cannot be yoked to Christ when he is yoked to self. Imagine standing in a full body cast and being able to cut the back of it away and falling backwards out of the cast. The cast is the old man, the one who fell back is your being. The strait gate that leads to Life only has room for one to go through it. Not your being plus a self, only your being goes through. Spiritual interaction take place at the core of your being, not through the outer masks that your being-ness wears.

 

[teamventure]

Believing Gentiles and Israelites make up Christ's Church, and that group of believing Israelites includes members from all the 12 tribes. But the Jews as a group does not specifically refer to all 12 tribes per history, nor per God's Word.

Christ's Church is going to still be here on earth to go through the tribulation, like our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught.

Then Christ at His second coming will bring with Him the asleep saints to earth, and will defeat His enemies and end the tribulation upon His faithful ones, and His Church still alive on earth will be joined to them and Him at Jerusalem, which will begin His thousand years Millennium reign.

During that Millennium reign, the rest of Israel that refused Christ, along with all Gentiles left that did the same, will learn doctrine and be taught by the overcomers in Christ Jesus.



Any idea that our Lord Jesus was specifically pointing to unbelieving Jews as the least of His brethren is ludicrous.

Matt 12:50
50 For whosoever shall do the will of My Father Which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)

that's not even anywhere near the same passage of scripture. why does the bible refer to christians as sheep and Jesus as a lamb? does that mean christians and Jesus are the same thing? only an idiot would fall for your misleading post.

oh and it was concerning saved jews not unbelieving jews so nice try..

 

[prism]

Any idea that our Lord Jesus was specifically pointing to unbelieving Jews as the least of His brethren is ludicrous.

Matt 12:50
50 For whosoever shall do the will of My Father Which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)

Unbelieving Jews?
Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
(Mat 25:32)

It's the judgement of nations (gentles) on how they treated his brethren, the believing Jews ...and I will use your scripture reference as support.

Matt 12:50
50 For whosoever shall do the will of My Father Which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.(KJV)

That would exclude unbelieving Jews.

 

[teamventure]

thanks prism. it's nice to see posters around here that aren't neck deep in apostacies.

 

[veteran]

2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thes 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Regarding these verses: Know ye not that you are the temple of God?

The day of Christ, the revelation and realizations of Christ in you, will not come until you see your man of sin. This is also described as the old man, the carnal mind, the self, the ego, the flesh. It is that thing that we live our lives centered in believing that we are that thing. That is, until Jesus showed us the way; which is walking in the spirit, Christ in us. Where it is no longer I (the self, man of sin) who lives, but Christ liveth in me. If any man will come after Christ, let him deny his self; for greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his self life for his friends.

That was not Apostle Paul's meaning of the 2 Thess.2 Scripture. It's not about any idea of our 'old man' or old sin nature before coming to Christ Jesus. It's about a false Christ coming to play our Lord Jesus prior to His true coming.

And the question is, just how many... believers on Jesus Christ are going to be fooled by that false Christ, and bow in false worship to him instead?

that's not even anywhere near the same passage of scripture. why does the bible refer to christians as sheep and Jesus as a lamb? does that mean christians and Jesus are the same thing? only an idiot would fall for your misleading post.

oh and it was concerning saved jews not unbelieving jews so nice try..

When Jesus referred to whom His brothers and family were, it was about His servants that believe on Him.


Matt 12:46-50
46 While He yet talked to the people, behold, His mother and His brethren stood without, desiring to speak with Him.
47 Then one said unto Him, "Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with Thee."
48 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, "Who is My mother? and who are My brethren?"
49 And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of My Father Which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother."
(KJV)

That certainly was not... the unbelieving Jews that Jesus was pointing to there when saying that. He directly pointed to His disciples and metaphorically said they were His mother and His brethren.