You seem to be implying that I have made up extra biblical stuff, after you saying "Mary was forbidden to touch Jesus because He had not finished preforming His high priestly duty of pouring His blood on the mercy seat in heaven"??? How do you prove this from the Word of God? I know of no verses from Scripture that speak of Christ pouring His blood anywhere in heaven! If you cannot show verses to prove what you allege here, just who then would be the one making up extra biblical stuff????
What JESUS Taught Us At The Last Supper = John 13;3-5
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You seem to be implying that I have made up extra biblical stuff, after you saying "Mary was forbidden to touch Jesus because He had not finished preforming His high priestly duty of pouring His blood on the mercy seat in heaven"??? How do you prove this from the Word of God? I know of no verses from Scripture that speak of Christ pouring His blood anywhere in heaven! If you cannot show verses to prove what you allege here, just who then would be the one making up extra biblical stuff????
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Although John was the greatest human in history in Jesus' eyes, we take it he didn't go to heaven because the least one in the Kingdom of heaven was greater than he. The truth is, he would have obviously, but he died prior to the baptism of holy spirit, therefore was not born again. He will be resurrected back as a human.
Only those who are born again go to heaven sir.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Yes Bob, Christ is telling the Father that His life (spirit) was being given into the Father's hand. Because the spirit returns to the Father when our body dies. Not only would His body not decay while lying dead in the sepulcher to be raised to life again, but His spirit too would also ascend to the Father in heaven alive to be kept by the Father.
Jesus was bodily resurrected with His spirit within. For it is the spirit that gives the physical body life. Christ appeared in His resurrected body and spirit. He was at that point a complete living soul.
The reasons given for why some did not recognize His resurrected body were because they did not yet believe, because their eyes were kept from recognizing Him, and when their eyes were opened, He vanished out of their sight. Christ's disciples doubted His bodily resurrection and believed they were seeing a spirit in the form of a human. It wasn't that they did not recognize Him, they feared Him. He showed them His feet and hands to prove He was Jesus, and after eating with them He opened their eyes of understanding. Then He told them to stay in Jerusalem until they received power from on high, and as He walked with them as far as Bethany, He departed from them and bodily He ascended to heaven. "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with greatAnd were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God." Amen
Luke 24:9-11 (KJV) And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Luke 24:15-16 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:30-31 (KJV) And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Luke 24:36-39 (KJV) And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:43-45 (KJV) And he took it, and did eat before them. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luke 24:50-53 (KJV) And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great
Wait a second Rw, that is not what you was telling me the other day. In fact you were chastising me for my believing Jesus was resurrected bodily, which I assured you I believed he was resurrected a spirit, as you said.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
1. Jesus fulfilled all points of the law.
2. Jesus is the great high priest.
3. Jesus is Gods passover lamb as well as high priest.
4. The passover lamb had to be slain and the blood poured on the mercy seat.
5. The Law required the high priest to remain untouched at passover until he poured the blood on the mercy seat in the holy of holies. This is a reality as well as a type of what Jesus had to do.
6. Jesus fulfilled the Law. Read Hebrews 7-9. He poured His blood on the Holy of holies in heaven which the earthly one was modelled.
7. Jesus clearly said why Mary could not touch Him. why does anyone feel the need to add to it?
8. This requires study and work, but it fills perfectly what Jesus had to do to be the faithful High Priest.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Yes sir, common sense, I don't think Jesus returned to heaven as the lesser human he became. He was sacrificed, fulfilling his assignment. Therefore he went back to who he was. You do understand that the individual in heaven who became the human Jesus, no longer existed during Jesus' life span correct? He didn't sacrifice that life, rather his human life.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No He did not cease to exist. Philippians 2 makes that crystal clear! He emptied HImself- not ceased to exist.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
I will take god at His Word over teh Watchtower at their evil musings thank you sir.
One who is born again is endowed with the Holy Spirit. Since John the Baptist was endowed with the Holy Spirit from birth, from birth he was physically born, but from the womb he was born again. John is now in the Kingdom of heaven with the Lord as a living (spirit) soul. Yes, he will be physically resurrected immortal & incorruptible when the last trump sounds and all who are in the graves will be bodily resurrected for life or resurrected for condemnation. This is why Christ tells us all who are in heaven, are greater than even His prophet John when he was still of human flesh, destined to die and decay.
Bob, when Christ died the Spirit of Christ ascended to heaven, that was not His bodily resurrection that would come three days later. After three days, through His Spirit, returned to His body, Christ was resurrected from the dead to physically show Himself alive after death. It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing. (Jo 6:63) This is the "first resurrection" from the dead, (Jo 11:25; Acts 26:23) which is the only resurrection believers must have part in to assure we have overcome the second death. It is our spiritual resurrection, through the resurrection life of Christ, that saves us. Not our physical resurrection that will not come until the last trump sounds, and time for this earth shall be no longer.
"born again" and "endowed with the Holy Spirit" ... like all those pastors of Christendom who are mentioned in the most notorious scandals of the news? They are the first and most outstanding self-proclaimed "born again" ... but in the religious forums on the internet we have thousands of other self-proclaimed "born again and endowed with the Holy Spirit", only those are anonymous, their scandals are at the family or neighbor level, and nobody finds out because in internet are anonymous ... but even so they proclaim themselves "born again" and "endowed with the Holy Spirit".
However, the Bible teaches that the revealing of the sons of God is an event that will occur in the future:
Rom. 8: 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.
1 John 3:1 See what sort of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are. That is why the world does not know us, because it has not come to know him. 2 Beloved ones, we are now children of God,+ but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.
Do you see the bold expression? How many of those self-proclaimed "born again and endowed with the Holy Spirit" do that?
However, the Bible teaches that the revealing of the sons of God is an event that will occur in the future:
Rom. 8: 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.
1 John 3:1 See what sort of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are. That is why the world does not know us, because it has not come to know him. 2 Beloved ones, we are now children of God,+ but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.
Do you see the bold expression? How many of those self-proclaimed "born again and endowed with the Holy Spirit" do that?
Since you refer only to Heb 7-9 to prove that the work of Christ, as atonement for sin, must be poured out in heaven before His work on earth is finished, can you point specifically to the verse or verses that prove this assumption? Btw, I am not adding to what Mary said, but you certainly seem to be adding extra-biblical assumption to her words.
What Jesus became a man what He needed to do while on earth, according to the words He spoke from His cross was finished. His precious blood was shed on earth, through Him.
John 19:30 (KJV) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Sadly, this is all too true. However, it's not like we have not been warned. Scripture is replete with warnings of false prophets, antichrists, and Satan himself (just to name a few) being among the Church on this earth. Anyone can profess to being born again, claiming they have the Spirit of Christ within, so we're warned, we would know them by their fruit. We are not the judges of another's heart. The false will be exposed and destroyed with the coming of Christ the second time.
Of course we're not anyone's judge, but at least we know we shouldn't be impressed by anyone who claims to be whatever they say they are...
The important thing is to be willing to consider whether the things we believe are really supported by Scripture, especially if we are talking about them as if they were divine truth... How much blame can God find in people who teach falsehoods in his name?
And how many people are really willing to accept when another person contributes valuable Biblical information to correct their views that may be wrong?
To be a teacher, we must first be a student. Who in this world are the true teachers of the good news of the kingdom of God? Those who proclaim themselves "born again and endowed with Holy Spirit" or those who demonstrate with their life and biblical knowledge that they have the spirit of God?
Who really wants to learn ... to teach later? Or is it that everybody thinks they can teach? (Rom. 10:13-15).
I'm very aware there are many who are false among us. While we are able to judge them outward by what they say, followed by what they do. But I will let God be their Judge!
Romans 10:6-7 (KJV) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well here are your words from post #48:
Christ spoke these words to Mary because she was so excited to see her Lord ALIVE that she was clinging to Him. He wanted her to stop, because He had a work for her to accomplish. Basically, Christ is saying stop clinging to Me Mary, but rather go and tell the others that I ascend to My Father, but not yet.
None of that is in the bible. that is conjecture on your part.
As for Jesus pouring HIs blood in the heavenly holy of holies?
Hebrews 9:11-14
King James Version
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Now if you go read the accounts in Leviticus or Deuteronomy about the blood of the Passover Lamb and the priest entered the holiest of all with the blood and poured it on the mercy seat- You see Jesus faithfully performed the role of high priest.
All this passage says is that Christ, by His atoning blood, fulfilled all the Levitical Law required from the Old Covenant. Nowhere in Scripture shall be found the atoning work of Christ through His blood must be poured out in heaven for His work to be accomplished. That is indeed bringing extra-biblical opinion into Scripture.
Hebrews 8:6-13 (KJV) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:15-17 (KJV) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
The New Covenant through the blood of Christ is of force after His death. It does not say the New Covenant through Christ's blood will not be accomplished until He pours out His blood in heaven.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You have made a good point of who is and who is not actually "born again" of the spirit of God. But don't misunderstand the timing of "the revealing of the sons of God" as only being "future", for it is written in what you quoted, saying the Father "has" given us, and "we are now" children of God.
What John referred to in saying that "it has not yet been made manifest what we will be" was regarding "the world...because it has not come to know him." Thus, even we who are His already, being yet in the world, cannot see what these eyes of flesh cannot see. Which is not to say "We cannot see", except we continue in the flesh, and believe only what the flesh sees...which more do than those who see to the grief of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, if one actually "knows", let them not say they "believe" and are continuing to "wait" on He who has "come in to them" already. But let them say rather "I know, and He is with me" that He might be all the more manifest to the world.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
So why do you think it was Jesus who went back to heaven, rather than the son God sent sir? Jesus returned to his previous life, as his assignment was completed. Jesus of course is not equal to god as well. Your altered version of the Bible was altered deliberately. The reason behind it is quite obvious of course.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
The first recorded outpouring of holy spirit occurred on Pentecost of 33 CE sir. In agreement with what you said, only those endowed (baptized) with holy spirit will go to heaven. John was dead prior. Do you recognize that only those of the new covenant will go to heaven Rw? If you do, then you will realize John was not there when the new covenant was offered, nor went into effect either.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
No sir, in fact Jesus did not ascend to heaven for aprox 40 days after his resurrection. The first resurrection are those who are resurrected to heaven after Jesus became King. We do believe it has already occurred. They alone overcome the second death upon their resurrection as seen, whereas the rest of us will not come to life until the end of the thousand years. And we will never be immortal, as those of the first resurrection are.
