What JESUS Taught Us At The Last Supper = John 13;3-5

[Robert Gwin]

The contrasting proves the significance of the cross and resurrection of Christ (Gospel) to every nation of the earth Bob. The 144,000 from all the tribes of the faithful children of Israel is the remnant from the Old Covenant nation. The innumerable multitude are the faithful from ALL nations, those who have come out of great tribulation in this age and have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, as well as the faithful remnant who believed the prophets when they prophesied The Messiah would come to redeem them.

Romans 9:27-28 (KJV) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

In the days of Elijah Paul numbered the remnant according to election of grace as seven thousand faithful men from Israel. And in Paul's day, Paul says there is a remnant according to election of grace.

Romans 11:2-5 (KJV) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

I view the number 144,000 as equating to the remnant of Old Covenant faithful Jews who lived before the promised Messiah came, and those faithful Jews, who, like Paul, having come out of the Old Covenant, embraced Christ through His Gospel and power of the Sprit, who lived and died in the first century AD.

I view the 144k as the Israel of God taken from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues that are redeemed from the earth to serve as Kings and Priests along with Jesus the King to rule over the earth. Rev 5:9,10; 14:3 No one who did not receive baptism of the holy spirit will go to heaven, which greatly saddened Jesus over his cousin John. Mt 11:11

 

[Robert Gwin]

The Bible clearly says if you do not believe Jesus was physically raised from the dead- your faith is in vain and you are yet in your sin. And in Romans 10 it si required to believe Jesus rose from the dead to be saved. So maybe according to the watchtower you are correct, but according to Gods Word you are wrong.

It doesn't matter Ron, if the sacrifice was taken back, no one will receive salvation.

Why would you think Jesus would not return to his own life after completing the assignment? The Bible teaches he went back to an even higher position, why would God resurrect him to the lesser person than he was than before he was sent? (Philippians 2:7) . . .No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.

What you say makes absolutely no sense to me sir. I kind of was in error in my last comment to you after I thought about it however, it actually is a serious matter, for the reason above, no sacrifice was ever taken off the alter Ron, Jesus gave his flesh and blood, the equal to what lost life for us, and if it was for only less than 3 days, then obviously the ransom has not been paid. What is the real reason you refuse to accept it? You can take heart in the Biblical fact that most humans will be resurrected in the flesh, if that is what you are worried about. Only those who go to heaven will receive a spirit body, being as the angels are.

 

[Robert Gwin]

When Christ died, He committed His spirit to His Father in heaven. What does that mean Bob, if it does not show Jesus' life through His living spirit being placed alongside the Father in heaven, His life after physical death being preserved by Him? Does this not indicate being spiritually resurrected after physical death?

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

I do not think that is what it means Rw, I think Jesus was basically telling God that his future prospects for life, is now in God's hands. Jesus of course knew the prophecies that God would not leave him in hell, and even stated that he would rise on the third day: (Matthew 17:22, 23) . . .Jesus said to them: “The Son of man is going to be betrayed into men’s hands, 23 and they will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised up.” And they were very much grieved.

I fully agree with you that Jesus was resurrected back to his former self, a spirit being. He did appear both as a spirit being and bodily after his resurrection, but the bodies he appeared in to his friends was not his, as he was never recognized physically, only by actions and speech. I really do not know why you think I believe he was resurrected in the flesh, unless you haven't read my posts on the subject.

 

[rwb]

No one who did not receive baptism of the holy spirit will go to heaven, which greatly saddened Jesus over his cousin John. Mt 11:11

Matthew 11:11 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Not sure what you mean? I'm not sure you're rightly understanding the verse because John was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Christ is acknowledging that the MAN John, His cousin is a great prophet on earth, but when believers go to heaven, even the least of humans will be greater there. Because in heaven there will be only light and life without darkness and dying.

Luke 1:13-15 (KJV) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[rwb]

I do not think that is what it means Rw, I think Jesus was basically telling God that his future prospects for life, is now in God's hands. Jesus of course knew the prophecies that God would not leave him in hell, and even stated that he would rise on the third day: (Matthew 17:22, 23) . . .Jesus said to them: “The Son of man is going to be betrayed into men’s hands, 23 and they will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised up.” And they were very much grieved.

I fully agree with you that Jesus was resurrected back to his former self, a spirit being. He did appear both as a spirit being and bodily after his resurrection, but the bodies he appeared in to his friends was not his, as he was never recognized physically, only by actions and speech. I really do not know why you think I believe he was resurrected in the flesh, unless you haven't read my posts on the subject.

Yes Bob, Christ is telling the Father that His life (spirit) was being given into the Father's hand. Because the spirit returns to the Father when our body dies. Not only would His body not decay while lying dead in the sepulcher to be raised to life again, but His spirit too would also ascend to the Father in heaven alive to be kept by the Father.

Jesus was bodily resurrected with His spirit within. For it is the spirit that gives the physical body life. Christ appeared in His resurrected body and spirit. He was at that point a complete living soul.

The reasons given for why some did not recognize His resurrected body were because they did not yet believe, because their eyes were kept from recognizing Him, and when their eyes were opened, He vanished out of their sight. Christ's disciples doubted His bodily resurrection and believed they were seeing a spirit in the form of a human. It wasn't that they did not recognize Him, they feared Him. He showed them His feet and hands to prove He was Jesus, and after eating with them He opened their eyes of understanding. Then He told them to stay in Jerusalem until they received power from on high, and as He walked with them as far as Bethany, He departed from them and bodily He ascended to heaven. "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God." Amen

Luke 24:9-11 (KJV) And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

Luke 24:15-16 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

Luke 24:30-31 (KJV) And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Luke 24:36-39 (KJV) And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Luke 24:43-45 (KJV) And he took it, and did eat before them. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Luke 24:50-53 (KJV) And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

 

[ElieG12]

(...) His spirit too would also ascend to the Father in heaven alive to be kept by the Father. (...)

What do you mean with that?

Jesus said after his resurrection:

John 20:17 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He didn't say: "I already was up there but came back to get my body back".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It doesn't matter Ron, if the sacrifice was taken back, no one will receive salvation.

Why would you think Jesus would not return to his own life after completing the assignment? The Bible teaches he went back to an even higher position, why would God resurrect him to the lesser person than he was than before he was sent? (Philippians 2:7) . . .No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.

What you say makes absolutely no sense to me sir. I kind of was in error in my last comment to you after I thought about it however, it actually is a serious matter, for the reason above, no sacrifice was ever taken off the alter Ron, Jesus gave his flesh and blood, the equal to what lost life for us, and if it was for only less than 3 days, then obviously the ransom has not been paid. What is the real reason you refuse to accept it? You can take heart in the Biblical fact that most humans will be resurrected in the flesh, if that is what you are worried about. Only those who go to heaven will receive a spirit body, being as the angels are.

Sorry, you are letting human philosophy blind you to the truth. We have been round and round on this and still what Jesus said is true:

John 2:19-23

King James Version

​

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

JESUS TOLD THE PHARISEES, YOU DESTROY MY BODY, AND IN THREE DAYS I WILL RAISE MY BODY UP!!!!!

I have done my pat to warn you to flee the lie of the Watchtower concerning Jesus physical resurrection. I can do no more.

 

[rwb]

What do you mean with that?

Jesus said after his resurrection:

John 20:17 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He didn't say: "I already was up there but came back to get my body back".

Christ had not yet ascended physically, as His disciples would see Him go. But His spirit ascended to the Father in heaven the moment He died.

Christ spoke these words to Mary because she was so excited to see her Lord ALIVE that she was clinging to Him. He wanted her to stop, because He had a work for her to accomplish. Basically, Christ is saying stop clinging to Me Mary, but rather go and tell the others that I ascend to My Father, but not yet.

 

[ElieG12]

Christ had not yet ascended physically, as His disciples would see Him go. But His spirit ascended to the Father in heaven the moment He died.

Christ spoke these words to Mary because she was so excited to see her Lord ALIVE that she was clinging to Him. He wanted her to stop, because He had a work for her to accomplish. Basically, Christ is saying stop clinging to Me Mary, but rather go and tell the others that I ascend to My Father, but not yet.

So, you mean one Jesus was in heavens with the Father, and the other still was here ... How many Jesuses do you think exist?

 

[ScottA]

144,000 is not a numeration, but an indication, meaning all or the fulness thereof.

Likewise, God in fact does not own "the cattle on a thousand hills"--but on every hill.

 

[ElieG12]

144,000 is not a numeration, but an indication, meaning all or the fulness thereof. (...)

Scriptures teaches me something diferent: that the number 144000 is a literal number ... for these reasons:

1) is mentioned more than once in Revelation referring to the same group (Rev. 7:4; 14:1,3)

2) the Bible describes it as "the number of those who were sealed" (Gr .: τον αριθμον των εσφραγισμενων) in Rev 7:4;

3) when contrasted with the great crowd, it is necessarily indicated that it is a definite, well-determined number (Rev. 7: 4-10) contrasting the other crowd;

4) in Rev.14: 4 it is said that they were "bought from among mankind as firstfruits", and that implies that it is a limited selection or quantity (compare with the expression "little flock" in Luke 12:32);

5) only this group is considered as "priests and kings" (Rev. 1:5,6; 5:9,10; 20:4-6; Luke 12:32; 22:28-30). It is incongruous to think that in the total people who serve God, all are kings or all are priests, since these services are performed by a minority over a majority ... Just as in Israel, not all the Israelites were members of the group of priests who served in the tabernacle or the temple of Jehovah, which was only allowed to the Levites. Even some priestly functions only belonged to the descendants of Aaron, and others were exclusive functions of the High Priest (Heb. 5:4-6) ;

6) when in Revelation 6:11 the already dead are told that they should wait a little longer, they are told how long: "until the number was filled (gr .: πληρωθωσιν which is to reach a fullness or become complete) of their fellow slaves and their brothers".

7) In the NT there are indications that Jehovah's servants prior to Jesus are not part of the covenant that was made with the future kings of the kingdom (Matt. 11:11; 1 Pet. 1:10-12). That covenant was validated with the death of Jesus Christ (Luke 22:20,28,29). Obviously, the rest of God's servants who are not part of that covenant will be resurrected on earth and will live alongside the great crowd that will survive the end of this system of things.

 

[rwb]

So, you mean one Jesus was in heavens with the Father, and the other still was here ... How many Jesuses do you think exist?

Whenever any human dies, the spirit returns to God who gave it, while our body returns to the dust of the earth from which it came. The spirit of Christ is no different. When He died His spirit ascended to the Father in heaven, and His body went into the tomb.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit of Christ returned to the Father alive because the Holy Spirit was in Him. This truth applies to every human who is born again of the Spirit of God. Through His Spirit in believers, our spirit returns alive to the Father after death. But for the man who has never received the Holy Spirit through faith, their spirit returns to the Father without life.

 

[ScottA]

Scriptures teaches me something diferent: that the number 144000 is a literal number ... for these reasons:

1) is mentioned more than once in Revelation referring to the same group (Rev. 7:4; 14:1,3)

2) the Bible describes it as "the number of those who were sealed" (Gr .: τον αριθμον των εσφραγισμενων) in Rev 7:4;

3) when contrasted with the great crowd, it is necessarily indicated that it is a definite, well-determined number (Rev. 7: 4-10) contrasting the other crowd;

4) in Rev.14: 4 it is said that they were "bought from among mankind as firstfruits", and that implies that it is a limited selection or quantity (compare with the expression "little flock" in Luke 12:32);

5) only this group is considered as "priests and kings" (Rev. 1:5,6; 5:9,10; 20:4-6; Luke 12:32; 22:28-30). It is incongruous to think that in the total people who serve God, all are kings or all are priests, since these services are performed by a minority over a majority ... Just as in Israel, not all the Israelites were members of the group of priests who served in the tabernacle or the temple of Jehovah, which was only allowed to the Levites. Even some priestly functions only belonged to the descendants of Aaron, and others were exclusive functions of the High Priest (Heb. 5:4-6) ;

6) when in Revelation 6:11 the already dead are told that they should wait a little longer, they are told how long: "until the number was filled (gr .: πληρωθωσιν which is to reach a fullness or become complete) of their fellow slaves and their brothers".

7) In the NT there are indications that Jehovah's servants prior to Jesus are not part of the covenant that was made with the future kings of the kingdom (Matt. 11:11; 1 Pet. 1:10-12). That covenant was validated with the death of Jesus Christ (Luke 22:20,28,29). Obviously, the rest of God's servants who are not part of that covenant will be resurrected on earth and will live alongside the great crowd that will survive the end of this system of things.

None of those indicate that "a thousand" is defined as a worldly term (as the world would define it).

 

[ElieG12]

That "spirit" is not another conscious person leaving the body... but the internal energy of the person who died. Without energy a person is dead, because he cannot think, speak, act. When you don't eat, your energy runs out... It's not a "man inside of us" who ran out of energy; it is the body without energy that remained weak.

Animals also have a spirit, because without energy they cannot live either. The energy of living things came from God when he began to create life.

 

[ElieG12]

None of those indicate that "a thousand" is defined as a worldly term (as the world would define it).

Not for you ... but YES for me. I don't think with your mind; I got my own.
We may agree on dissagreing.
Have a good day.

 

[ScottA]

Not for you ... but YES for me. I don't think with your mind; I got my own.
We may agree on dissagreing.
Have a good day.

Believe as you will, and that will be the measure of what you receive and do not receive. But your beliefs change nothing of the truth, for "no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Christ had not yet ascended physically, as His disciples would see Him go. But His spirit ascended to the Father in heaven the moment He died.

Christ spoke these words to Mary because she was so excited to see her Lord ALIVE that she was clinging to Him. He wanted her to stop, because He had a work for her to accomplish. Basically, Christ is saying stop clinging to Me Mary, but rather go and tell the others that I ascend to My Father, but not yet.

Well that sounds nice and fluffy, but the Bible tells a different reason.
1. Jesus did rise physically. the apostles saw Him leave, after seeing him walk alive from the dead for fifty days.

As for Jesus telling Mary not to touch Him- let us look at two passages.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 20:19-27

King James Version

​

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended to the Father, but 8 days later He told Thomas to touch Him- so in that space He must have ascended to the Father. but for what purpose?

1. We must remember that Jesus fulfilled all points of the law!
2. Jesus is our faithful high priest.
3. At Passover the high priest took the blood of the lamb and poured it on the mercy seat in the holy of holies.
4. Once the lamb was slain, the high priest could not be touched or he would be ceremonially unclean!
5. As it says in Hebrews Jesus poured His blood on the real mercy seat in heaven.
6. So as the ultimate Jewish High Priest, Jesus could not be touched until He poured His blood on teh mercy seat in the temple of Heaven. this happened between Sunday and the following week.

 

[rwb]

That "spirit" is not another conscious person leaving the body... but the internal energy of the person who died. Without energy a person is dead, because he cannot think, speak, act. When you don't eat, your energy runs out... It's not a "man inside of us" who ran out of energy; it is the body without energy that remained weak.

Animals also have a spirit, because without energy they cannot live either. The energy of living things came from God when he began to create life.

AMEN! It is the spirit in man that gives life to our body. As I've already shown you the spirit in man returns to the Father in heaven after the body dies. The spirit will only return to the Father with life if it is indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. Yes, every living creature upon the earth is endowed with a spirit.

 

[rwb]

Well that sounds nice and fluffy, but the Bible tells a different reason.
1. Jesus did rise physically. the apostles saw Him leave, after seeing him walk alive from the dead for fifty days.

Who has said that Christ did not rise physically, or that He was not seen in physical form ascending to heaven?

As for Jesus telling Mary not to touch Him- let us look at two passages.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 20:19-27​

King James Version​

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended to the Father, but 8 days later He told Thomas to touch Him- so in that space He must have ascended to the Father. but for what purpose?

1. We must remember that Jesus fulfilled all points of the law!
2. Jesus is our faithful high priest.
3. At Passover the high priest took the blood of the lamb and poured it on the mercy seat in the holy of holies.
4. Once the lamb was slain, the high priest could not be touched or he would be ceremonially unclean!
5. As it says in Hebrews Jesus poured His blood on the real mercy seat in heaven.
6. So as the ultimate Jewish High Priest, Jesus could not be touched until He poured His blood on teh mercy seat in the temple of Heaven. this happened between Sunday and the following week.

Christ was not forbidding Mary not to touch Him ever! Like Thomas did, Mary could have touched Him later, but at that moment when Christ had just been resurrected from the dead, Christ seemed anxious for Mary to stop touching Him then, and instead go and tell the disciples what she had seen, and that He would be ascending to the Father, but not right away (yet).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Christ was not forbidding Mary not to touch Him ever! Like Thomas did, Mary could have touched Him later, but at that moment when Christ had just been resurrected from the dead, Christ seemed anxious for Mary to stop touching Him then, and instead go and tell the disciples what she had seen, and that He would be ascending to the Father, but not right away (yet).

Never said she was permanently forbidden to touch HIm, just not until He finished performing His high priestly duty of pouring His blood on the mercy seat of heaven. And in teh passage jesus gave the reason why Mary could not touch him, for He had not ascended to teh Father. We nedd not have to make up extra biblical stuff.

Heb. 9:

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Who has said that Christ did not rise physically, or that He was not seen in physical form ascending to heaven?

MY bad, I don't know why, but I misread your remark. My apology.