Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
But you spoke up as if I was not aware of it when I was in fact aware of it.
If you believed I was aware of this, you would not have said anything to the contrary.
The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism
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If you believed I was aware of this, you would not have said anything to the contrary.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
So you believe saved Christians overcome sin in this life?
I do not get that impression from our discussion because you believe Paul struggled with sin in Romans 7:14-24 as a Christian.
What is your interpretation on 1 John 1:8? I get the impression it is like most other Christians who say they cannot stop sinning at some point this side of Heaven (Which means they are a slave to their sin). Being a slave to sin means you are controlled by sin on some level.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Most Christians I have run into who believe as you do will say unbiblical things like, “We cannot stop sinning this side of Heaven.”
Are you in disagreement with them?
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Did you not try to convince me that you yourself do not keep the 1st commandment all the time and you implied that others cannot do this, as well?
We are under the "law of love", the highest and most demanding law of all.
And this is not the old way of love, but the new way, A new commandment I give you, to love each other as I have loved you". No more just loving in the human way, we are to love each other the way Jesus loved us. And I say, "loved", not "loves", because I'm referring to the love Jesus gave to man in giving living and then giving His life entirely for us. Entirely! Do you realize what that means?
At all times . . . living out your commitment towards others, towards their life and well being and nurture and growth and in every other way there can be.
And this love will encompass all the law and the prophets, we don't even have to know the lists of commandments if we live in perfect love.
We know that to steal is not love. Thinking evil of others is not love. But loving has nothing to do with maintaining observance of any of these. These tell us what is and isn't love, but we can't love by doing them. We only do them if we already love.
What's with your insistence that I say sin is OK? What's with your insistence that I don't believe passages in the Bible? Where is that coming from? If anything, aren't I simply mistaken? If in fact I am? I don't think I am, but even so it's a lot different from your claims of faithlessness?
Why do you come down on that side? Why do you impugn my faith, and my Bible reading, when you could think of me as mistaken? Do you see what I'm saying here?
Love believes all things, hopes all things, why do you not hope the best for me, instead of thinking the worst of me?
Does this help to show how I think of righteousness? Fulfilling love. If that is done, all else will be done.
Much love!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
No offense, you do err not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God.
This power of God is to overcome sin.
We also are given another commandment that we are to keep in the New Covenant.
1 Timothy 6:10-14
10 “For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Jesus says, “This is the first and great commandment.” (Matthew 22:38).
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
@marks
1 Peter 4:1-2
1 “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”
The passage says a believer can cease from sin.
This believer is admonished (warned) that he should no longer live the rest of their time (here on Earth obviously) in the lusts of the flesh (sin), but to the will of God. In 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14, Peter mentions how there are false teachers who cannot cease from sin.
2 Peter 2:1
”…even as there shall be false teachers among you,…”
2 Peter 2:14
”Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:”
Your whole push here is about how you cannot cease from sin or how you cannot keep the first greatest commandment or God’s commands. You believe you can disobey God’s commands and still be saved. For you don‘t believe you can be unborn by sin. So you can sin and still be saved. So why overcome sin if it is not necessary right? So you believe in that you cannot cease from sin. But the Bible warns against those who teach that they cannot cease from sin and it tells us that we can cease from sin. I just believe the Bible here in what it plainly says. You would have to alter the text above to make it harmonize with your unbiblical beliefs.
1 Peter 4:1-2
1 “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”
The passage says a believer can cease from sin.
This believer is admonished (warned) that he should no longer live the rest of their time (here on Earth obviously) in the lusts of the flesh (sin), but to the will of God. In 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14, Peter mentions how there are false teachers who cannot cease from sin.
2 Peter 2:1
”…even as there shall be false teachers among you,…”
2 Peter 2:14
”Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:”
Your whole push here is about how you cannot cease from sin or how you cannot keep the first greatest commandment or God’s commands. You believe you can disobey God’s commands and still be saved. For you don‘t believe you can be unborn by sin. So you can sin and still be saved. So why overcome sin if it is not necessary right? So you believe in that you cannot cease from sin. But the Bible warns against those who teach that they cannot cease from sin and it tells us that we can cease from sin. I just believe the Bible here in what it plainly says. You would have to alter the text above to make it harmonize with your unbiblical beliefs.
I don't know you even know what I believe, so far I'm seeing you address me for arguments that I don't offer. But to answer you best I can, yes, ceasing from sin is possible, but you won't know whether you truly have or not, because you don't know yourself well enough. The Bible shows that while we remain in this flesh, this flesh remains against us, so the conflict isn't over until our physical transformation.
If we walk in the Spirit, we do not sin. If we do sin, we have an advocate. We we continue is sin, we will be chastised, which will result in the the peaceable fruits of righteousness.
I think most of us have a long way to go towards recognizing the fleshiness in our lives that is in fact sin. I think there are many ways we fail to trust in God, and fail to act as we should, that we are unaware of their significance because we are so used to it. Our minds need to be renewed.
I find the longer I'm with Jesus, the more I come to understand how things I didn't see as sinful in years past are truly sinful and fleshy. Keep that part in mind, fleshy. Unspiritual. Many things people do that they don't recognize that this is flesh, and not "eternal life", life that is outside this world. We are reborn the spirit children of God, while living in our original fleshy body.
Did you see my post on Romans? It is no more I that do it? This is a key part of Scripture, and knowing what God has done for us.
Much love!
Again, no, this is not what I'm saying. I do not, have not, will not, I don't talk that way, to say we cannot not sin. Rubbish! I keep saying this over and over, and you keep pushing that I am saying that.
What shall we make of that, eh?
Much love!
Yes, I believe that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, He Who justifies us, and does not condemn us.
And apparently you believe you move in and out of salvation as frequently as you disbelieve God's providence for a moment, or you become irritated with the one you are to be loving, or you become impatient (really, same as #1), when your behavior or your thoughts become fleshy, you cease being born again. Is that correct? If not, how would you restate this?
Much love!
This is an important and true passage. We are to have this resolve in our minds that as we suffer we know it is for this reason, to put away sin.
Now, I know you want to only look at the King James, but I want to show you something.
This is the Received Text, the manuscript of the King James Bible. Here, where it says, "the one suffering in the flesh has ceased from sin", it shows this word "has ceased" is in the Perfect tense, Passive voice.
What does it mean that this is the Passive Voice? What is the Passive Voice of a Greek verb?
English doesn't show this distinction in direct translation without using extra words. Something I like about the KJV is how they don't use that many extra words.
Do you know about this already? Would you prefer to research on your own? Would you like my explanation? I'd rather you reached your own conclusion, but there really is just one that fits the facts.
After we settle this one, I have more to say on this passage, and I'm hoping we can focus on it for the moment.
Much love!
How long can I call this misunderstanding, and how long before it is misrepresentation?
?
If you would care to summarize what you understand my belief to be, that would be very helpful!
Much love!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
strifes about words is not a good sign . not a good sign at all .
That is exactly how one can change the simple meaning of something into what THEY want it to say . BE ON GAURD my friends .
That is exactly how one can change the simple meaning of something into what THEY want it to say . BE ON GAURD my friends .
1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV
1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
"hath ceased from sin", hath ceased is written in the Greek "Passive Voice". This distinction doesn't carry through into English without including extra words.
Passive Voice
Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is being acted upon, then the verb is referred to as being in the passive voice.
For example: "Jesus ... was baptized by John in the Jordan" (Mark 1:9). "Jesus" is the subject of the sentence, but in this case He is being acted upon (i.e. He is the recipient of the action), therefore the verb is said to be in the "Passive Voice".
1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
The one who has suffered has received the affect of being acted upon in such a way as to cause that one to cease from sin.
This is paralleled in Hebrews 12,
Hebrews 12:5-11 KJV
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
God's true children will be chastised (train as one trains a child). God's chastisement is that we might be partakers of His holiness, and it does yield the fruit of righteousness to those who are put through it's routines of rigorous training.
Much love!
1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
"hath ceased from sin", hath ceased is written in the Greek "Passive Voice". This distinction doesn't carry through into English without including extra words.
Passive Voice
Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is being acted upon, then the verb is referred to as being in the passive voice.
For example: "Jesus ... was baptized by John in the Jordan" (Mark 1:9). "Jesus" is the subject of the sentence, but in this case He is being acted upon (i.e. He is the recipient of the action), therefore the verb is said to be in the "Passive Voice".
1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
The one who has suffered has received the affect of being acted upon in such a way as to cause that one to cease from sin.
This is paralleled in Hebrews 12,
Hebrews 12:5-11 KJV
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
God's true children will be chastised (train as one trains a child). God's chastisement is that we might be partakers of His holiness, and it does yield the fruit of righteousness to those who are put through it's routines of rigorous training.
Much love!
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That's not what it says. I keep finding this in your assertions, that's why I keep asking that you post the verses themselves, and underline or bold or something where in the verse you are seeing what you assert.
Romans 6:17-18 KJV
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
This verse does not say you can become slaves to righteousness, it says, in the KJV, thgat ye became the servants (slaves) of righteousness. This is something that happens when you are immersed into Jesus Christ's death and burial.
Romans 6:11 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
He's just told us to reckon ourselves dead to sin, and alive to God, and not because we are to believe a lie.
Romans 6:5-6 KJV
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
It's not a lie, because we've been crucified with Him, for the purpose of destroying the body of sin - removing it's power, so we don't continue to serve sin.
Romans 6:7 KJV
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
And in fact, we've been freed from sin. That's why we are to think of ourselves as being dead to sin.
Romans 6:12-14 KJV
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
So then don't yield yourself to sin, but to God. You are alive from among the dead ones, you are now alive unto God, so live that way.
We are crucified with Christ, we are dead to sin and alive unto God, we were slaves of sin, but now we are slaves of righteousness.
We are a new creation, created according to God (patterned after Him) in righteousness and true holiness.
Romans 7:20 KJV
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
This is what changed. We have become dead to sin, and alive to God. We are a new creation, the spirit child of God. The outer man serves sin, the inner man serves God. The flesh is corrupt by sin, the spirit is alive in Christ. We've been reborn.
Much love!
It was part of a description that included several elements, and was not intended to be a commentary on you. I'm sorry if it came across that way. Just to say that there is a lot involved in those simple words, "loving God".
I didn't assume you did or didn't know or agree or anything with any of the parts of my description, just writing out my description.
Much love!
This is a very interesting question. Will you only stop sinning upon pain of death?
We are recreated for holiness and righteousness, will you be satisfied with less than that?
The Law was the negative motivation, grace is the positive motivation. The Law demanded righteousness upon pain of death, grace offers righteousness in the path of life.
Much love!
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