The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
This is because you do not believe verses like 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1. These verses talk about overcoming sin (of which you do not believe). You gave a reply on these verses to me before in this thread, but your reply did not really face what these verses plainly say. Your reply made absolutely zero sense, and it had nothing to do with what they actually said. So I would encourage you to re-read them again and deal with what they say in the English in the King James Bible. Right now. The devil has snatched these verses out of your heart. You cannot see them (i.e. understand them) because you don’t believe them (See the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13).
So quote the passage - actually show the text - and show what you believe it means. These are simply stated passages, it shouldn't be difficult.
Otherwise, you are merely making claims about referenced verses, and I don't see them being supported in the text.
You are pointing to passages that speak of us overcoming sin as though they say if we don't stop sinning entirely we don't remain born again, and they don't actually say that.
You have us being regenerated over and over throughout our lives, or even in the same day, born again and again and again as we sin and repent and confess and are justified, that's just not Biblical, and there are no texts that support such an idea, and just listing out handful of references doesn't change that fact.
You want to hold to the text of the KJV, then do just that.
If you want to have a real discussion, I'm always into that. But pick a passage, post the verses, post what they mean to you, and I'll do likewise. But this dancing around isn't working for me. I hope you understand what I'm saying.
Much love!
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
Well said! Of course, every translation has the same message, not just the King James.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.”
Here we see in this verse above an example of a person justifying sin. She says she has done no wickedness being an adulterous woman.
Isaiah 5:20
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
Christians today use 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 as an excuse to sin. In fact, they will say if you do not admit to this, truth is not in you (and you are the one who is not good). They of course are of the truth even if they sin. So they are saying that evil is good, and good is evil (Which is a violation of Isaiah 5:20). They are justifying sin.
Malachi 2:17 AMP
“You have wearied the LORD with your words. But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”
The same concept is being said by those who think they cannot overcome sin in this life and say you cannot obey God’s commands. It’s a justification of sin that God has not given a person. Why? Because God is not going to agree with anyone’s sin because He is holy, righteous, and good.
Therein lies the problem that is a justification to sin. Nowhere does God’s Word say you do not have to keep the 1st commandment at times. It does not really give a time restriction actually (in how we are to fulfill it - whether it be daily, weekly, monthly, etc.), but what could it hurt a Christian to strive to keep the 1st commandment daily. Many Christians do not even meditate on what this command even means let and they cannot even quote which gospel and chapter of the Scriptures that the full version of this command appears in. The full version of this command can be found in Mark 12:29-30. It begins with, “Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:”. Even this aspect of the 1st command has a spiritual application to your life.
Anyways, the reason why Christians do not keep God’s commands is because they have not obeyed the doctrine in going from being a slave to sin and in becoming a slave to righteousness (See: Romans 6:17-18). For you do not count yourself dead unto sin because you believe you still sin (Romans 6:11). The context is do not let sin reign in your mortal body to obey it and the lusts thereof (Romans 6:12). Again, these verses are not living on the inside of you. You don’t understand them because they go against what you believe. The devil has snatched these verses out from your heart whereby they are as if they don’t even exist in the Bible. The way you can change that is to simply believe and receive them with joy (See again the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13).
Jim B
Well-Known Member
You wrote "And about the first commandment, I didn't say you can't keep it. I said no one does all the time, or so it seems to me." The first commandment says “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me."
Only unbelievers or confused believers put other gods before the one true God.
Of course I love God with all my being at all times! If you haven't met people who feel that way you need to get out more. I would venture that the majority of the people on this forum love God at all times.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Apparently there seems to be a confusion about what the first commandment is.
In the ten commandments, the first is "you shall have no other gods before me"
In Mark's gospel, the first commandment is "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."
The one in Exodus is the first in a list of commandments. The one in Mark is the first in importance.
Which one are we discussing?
In the ten commandments, the first is "you shall have no other gods before me"
In Mark's gospel, the first commandment is "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."
The one in Exodus is the first in a list of commandments. The one in Mark is the first in importance.
Which one are we discussing?
Sorry . . . not the first commandment, the greatest commandmant.
Are you saying that not loving God with all your being is not sin? Exactly when is it that you are OK to not love God?
This is what I mean about those who say they don't sin. They always have some idea of sin that doesn't match the Bible.
That which is not of faith is sin, and the good you know to do that you don't do, that also is sin.
Romans 14:23 KJV
23) And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
James 4:17 KJV
17) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
You know that the greatest commandment is to love God with all your being, that is the good you are to do. To not do it is sin. Plain and simple.
I see this all the time in Biblical discussions, that the plain readings aren't followed, the passages are not harmonized, and things are claimed that the Bible doesn't say.
Shall we define sin as something less than it actually is so that we can claim to not have any? Not me, certainly not!
Much love!
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
I agree that using Modern Translations is a must. In my case: I believe they are extremely beneficial to updating the archaic language in the King James Bible. For example: Romans 15:16-18 is not as clear as it is in the AMP (and can cause less confusion unless one is an expert on archaic words in the 1600’s).
Romans 15:16-18 (KJB)
16 “That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,”
Romans 15:16-18 (AMP)
16 “to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. I minister as a priest the gospel of God, in order that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable [to Him], sanctified [made holy and set apart for His purpose] by the Holy Spirit.
17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have found [legitimate] reason for boasting in things related [to my service] to God.
18 For I will not [even] presume to speak of anything except what Christ has done through me [as an instrument in His hands], resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles [to the gospel], by word and deed,”
One preacher I heard misreads the NKJV to think that the gospel includes offering up the Gentiles and being Sanctification of the Spirit by this passage. But he is misreading it in my humble opinion. It is saying that Paul preached the gospel IN ORDER that the offering up of the Gentiles might be made acceptable to God and that are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. I just side with the KJB because there are major problems in Modern Bibles and therefore they cannot be my final Word of authority. I have not found any ethical problem in the King James Bible.
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I'd agree, and I'd further say that because Christians don't do this, they may end up thinking they are perfectly keeping it.
But when you look at what it means to love in the Bible, it's not "liking the idea of God", and it's not "having kindly feelings towards Him", this is a core of your being commandment, how you organize your life, how you perceive your world.
And how you are towards others.
Much love!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
While certain moral laws like (Do not steal, do not kill, etcetera) have been repeated or carried over into the Laws of Christ in the New Covenant, Christians are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. So the ten commandments is not something we really look to as the Israelite does. We look to the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. The way to fulfill the Old Law is by loving your neighbor (See: Romans 13:8-10).
The first greatest commandment is the one in Mark 12:29-30. That is the 1st commandment and it is not the one in Exodus.
Please quote this passage and show your point here using the language from the passage. It doesn't say what you claim.
"you have become . . ." is the wording used, not, "you must become . . ." It's a very different thing.
This is why I keep asking you to show the verses, not just name a reference. It accountability to the text, we all need to have that.
Much love!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Nowhere did I say that loving God is absent of loving others. In fact, it is integral to loving God. The way we love others is the way we love God (of which we can see in helping the poor is likened to doing it unto Jesus - Matthew 25:31-46). But again, you are of the belief that keeping these commands is not possible all the time when God’s Word does not even say that. In fact, it says we can be slaves to righteousness (See: Romans 6:17-18). Of course you believe we are slaves to sin (Which runs contrary to the teaching in the Bible).
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
So you cannot quote Romans 6:17-18 in the King James Bible to discuss it?
This is what I do if somebody uses a passage to propose a belief. I am just quoting the words in that passage.
If you do not believe those words in the passage then you need to show by the context how those words in the passage do not mean what they plainly say and they have a different meaning. But I know you cannot do that because I am aware of the context and it does not defend your sin and still be saved viewpoint in the least. Maybe if you skip to Romans 7:14-24, you have an excuse to sin, but like I said, it can be read in a way that is not an excuse to sin (of which seems more preferable to you). Just know God cannot agree with your sin.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Not so.
Matthew 18:6 (NLT)
“But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.”
As for other beliefs:
Yes, I can judge false beliefs because God’s Word says I can correct, rebuke, according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
I am also intimately familiar with the popular Protestant belief that says you must sin again occasionally according to a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24. This is not my first rodeo. I have been at these kinds of discussions for about 10 years now.
Post a passage, show what you believe it means using the language of the Bible, using the quotations, and let's look at the passage together until we've reached a conclusion.
Much love!
I'm asking you to post the passage you are discussing, and show using that passage what it means to you.
Lay it out for me, show the work.
Much love!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Romans 6:17-18 says:
17 “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Modern Translations say “slaves to righteousness.”
Jesus said he that commits sin is a servant (slave) to sin (John 8:34), and the slave (slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever (i.e. They will not abide in the house of Christ forever - See again Matthew 13:41-42).
Anyways, looking at the context of Romans 6:17-18, we can see that this being a servant (slave) to righteousness is in regards to holy conduct and not in just having a belief alone type righteousness.
#1. Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. (Romans 6:1-2) (Holy conduct).
#2. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:2) (Holy conduct).
#3. That henceforth we should not serve sin (Romans 6:6) (Holy conduct).
#4. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (Romans 6:12) (Holy conduct).
#5. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (Romans 6:13) (Note: Members are body parts - See: Matthew 5:28-30) (Holy conduct).
#6. For as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (Romans 6:19) (Holy conduct).
#7. Become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life (Romans 6:22) (Holy conduct).
So being as servant (or slave) to righteousness is in regards to holy conduct because the whole chapter supports that conclusion. You need to be slave or servant to righteousness and not a slave to sin.
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