In regard to what Jesus said to Peter, it appears that the Apostle John's presumption is in error.

[The Third One]

@VictoryinJesus, @ScottA, @The Learner, @face2face and ALL others,

Allow me to impose (my broken-up version of) a rhetorical question:

What does it mean… to truly accept… what’s been done for us on the cross?

I have been listening to you guys, very carefully, and I am still not hearing it click — the understanding of what true acceptance actually means.

The first negative word you guys hear about Paul… and (oh, my)… the big guns start blazing from those fixed fortifications.

How about if I were to share with you a little more detail from my RANSOMED perspective? My personal testimony as a true acceptor?

Let’s try some more of that.

If you have been following this thread… you know… I was ALL of six years old, the first time I really heard the story about Jesus dying on a cross. And, that he had willingly done this… to take AWAY the sin of the world.

Honestly, I did not feel compelled to “believe” it.

Instead, my first natural reaction was to reach out and grab it. Saying to myself (and to the Living God as I sat in that classroom), I’ll take that! Now, I don’t ever have to worry about this thing they call “sin.” One less thing.

That exact mindset remained undefeatable for 19 years, including 8 years of heavy-weight fights: The Third One versus The Third One’s Christian buds. Mind you, ALL this… with absolutely no help from anything in this world… other than my own personal and pure acceptance of what had been done for me on the cross.

And, then… at age 25 (the first time I ever read Paul’s letter to the Romans)… I about peed myself when I read the exact same undefeatable position… in the Bible!

You can read ALL about it for yourself throughout the first five chapters of Romans:

Romans 3:20-24 (Multiple Translation) “Do you finally see it? Nobody can ever become righteous in God’s eyes by following the Law. The more we learn about keeping the Law, ever deeper becomes our knowledge of Sin. But now — apart from Living a righteous Life and struggling to keep the commandments — the ability to stand absolutely PERFECT in the eyes of our Heavenly Father has already been manifested. The Law itself grants this right as does the testimony of the prophets! Now God says He will take every one of us, exactly as we are — utterly unworthy as we are, for there is no distinction of one being better than another — and justify us! FREELY! Without anything else required from us in return other than that we trust Jesus to take AWAY our sins!”

Romans 4:4 (Multiple Translation) “But didn’t he (Abraham) earn his right to Heaven by ALL the *Good* things he did?”

The Holy Spirit answers. And, Rocky dutifully pens Her answer:

Romans 4:5 (Multiple Translation) “No. For, deliverance from sin is a gift. If a person could earn it by being *Good,* then it wouldn’t be FREE — but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. By any man (truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross) his (true acceptance) IS his righteousness in God’s sight.”

And, most powerfully, Romans 6:14. Where the undefeatable position is summed-up… by none other than the Holy Spirit, Herself:

Romans 6:14 (Original Greek) “Sin will not rule over you! For you are not under the Law, but under Grace.”

As best as I can write it out for you, this is the psychological fortress I gained from truly accepting what’s been done for me on the cross. As a Christian would say… here is my personal testimony:

It doesn’t matter whether what I do is considered “right” or what I do is considered “wrong.” What matters is, WHATEVER I do, it cannot keep me from continuing to have a PERFECTLY unencumbered relationship with my Father in Heaven.

I have truly accepted that Jesus has died for ALL of my sin — past, present and future — it has ALL been taken AWAY. I have truly accepted this gift as my RANSOM (paid in full). Psychologically, this fortress is entirely undefeatable. I have something much more powerful than “sin” to truly accept.

To me, Jesus has neutralized anything that could ever be called “sin” in my Life, much in the same way a military force would neutralize an enemy target. He has taken it out of commission. He has turned it into nothing. Better put, he has turned it back into NOTHING, for it was NOTHING to begin with.

It is the very knowledge of sin that allows the concept of sin to take on a power unto itself.

We are not born into this world “in sin” as some philosophers have suggested; rather, we have to learn about “sin.” It’s not hard to imagine having no knowledge of “right” or “wrong,” because ALL of us are born into the world in that condition and remain so, as children, until we have the capacity to distinguish *right* from *wrong.* At that point, our innocence is truly gone.

The best I can ever hope to be is a little child. A pure soul.

Again, Jesus declared, ‘Unless you can become like this little child (he was holding) you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.’

So… how do I become like a little child?

By having total PERFECTION thrown upon me.

It’s so simple, it’s actually ridiculously simple. If, in my Father’s eyes (and mine), ALL of my sins, ALL of my evil, ALL of my self-perceived imperfections have been TAKEN AWAY, what is left for my Father to see?

A PERFECT person.

 

[The Third One]

Because I truly accept what’s been done for me on the cross, I know, one hundred percent, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts” that no matter how badly I mess up, I will ALWAYS be PERFECT in the eye of my Father. Whether I do whatever is considered “right,” or whatever is considered “wrong,” I will always be a cherished little child of the Living God of Light, forever, and no thing (not even NOTHING) can ever take that AWAY from me or stand in the way of my personal relationship with God my Father.

We hear again from my other sister…

The little old lady who Lives in a Box

With a pie-hole cut cheese-block — stone deaf, yet she talks…

“This BALDERDASH is the same as all cultic hogwash and far worse than some others!” “A total waste of breath, and yep yesterday's news,” says the woman who is still struggling with SIN on a day-to-day basis.

She calls this fortress, “A dime a dozen new banner, new gospel and a new faith.”

Uh oh. Now, you’ve gone and done it, sis. My Father would like a Word with you:

“You need a new ‘banner’ and Gospel!” shouts our Father in Heaven. “But, alas! What good would it do for Me to send it to you! By way of merely a prophet! Or… merely… an Arch Angel! A REAL angel of Light! Who actually LIVES in My very Presence! What difference would that make to you? You have been programmed — by your ‘Faith’ — to CURSE even such an angel from Heaven!”

He ain’t just whistlin’ “Dixie”:

“Galatians 1:8 (KJV) “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed!”

How’s that for a firewall? A fixed fortification of man against the invasion of Truth.

Personally? I am not the least bit concerned by such powerless threats (inspired by nothing but FEAR). Ultimately, the Truth will overcome ALL obstacles. What was it General Patton said? Oh yeah:

“Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man. If mountain ranges and oceans can be overcome, then anything built by man can be overcome.”

Sorry for interrupting, Dad, these folks like to “test Spirits” by cross-checking Truth against corresponding Scripture. I figured I’d throw in the Patton quote for GOOD measure as well. Please proceed:

“You have been brainwashed to hold on to a doctored-down version of ‘grace’ by which you have been polluted!”

Oh… You GOOD? Yep, that’s it. That’s ALL He has to say to you. Short ’n’ sweet, like ScottA likes it.

Here is something I am happy to state to y’all for the record. I love Paul. I love him as if he were my SIBLING brother. And, if Paul were right here, in front of me, I would tell him ALL of these exact same things, straight up, same as I have told you — same as I would honestly speak to my biological brother, had he gone off in a messed up direction and, consequentially… had greatly helped to spoil the most important thing in the universe.

@ScottA… are you listening? It is of no profit to point to this, that, the other thing or even ALL things strung together. Romans 6:16 is where it first happened.

Romans 6:16 is precisely where What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross went to Hell in a hand basket.

ALL the “thises,” “thats” and “other things” can be traced back to this one verse in Romans, where the solid Reality of Cross-Earned Righteousness is thrown OFF the airplane… in favor of the age old pursuit of Self-Earned Righteousness.

Yes, I know. These are tough-Truths for any die-hard Christian. We love Paul (our valiant Christian hero) and we DO NOT WANT to hear anyone talk any kind of “trash” about him.

The chips will just have to fall where they may.

We are speaking TRUTH here. Not FALSE-trash — this is TRUE-trash.

Paul, of ALL people, would love to hear it said that way. Paul liked things cut and dry like that. Separated.

During the Christian part of his Life, Paul talked FALSE-trash about his own self on more than one occasion. As for his past? He saw so much TRUE-trash in the previous Life he had Lived (pre-Christian) that he changed his name from Saul to Paul to separate ALL that “old-trash” from the rearview mirror of his own self-refection.

I am going to do the same thing for your benefit — within Paul’s Christian-Life.

Because, I hear you. And, it is important for you to hear me. (lol) Alright. Don’t throw your rotten tomatoes at me. You’ll just have to trust me on that one for now.

I get it. It is simply much too difficult for you to hear any trash-talk about Paul, during his Christian years.

So… as I talk about the many good things he wrote, I will traditionally refer to him as “Paul.” And… if I have to talk any “trash” about him (though it be TRUE-trash) I’ll refer to him as the Holy Spirit likes to refer to him (in these instances) — as “Rocky.”

Please try to understand this: Where Paul is right now, he already knows ALL these things. Not one thing said about him, at this point, in the whole scheme of things, is said “behind-his-back.” Paul KNOWS these exact same things (what we have been discussing and what we are about to discuss). He has more than learned his many lessons (and then some). He now KNOWS what its ALL about.

 

[The Third One]

So… to quote Rocky (from the Living Bible, in modern English): “Does this (the undefeatable position: that “Sin will not rule over you! For you are not under the Law, but under Grace”) mean that we can go ahead and sin and not worry about it?’

Perhaps Rocky’s biggest mistake, even bigger than how he answered this question, was how he went about asking this question.

As a “believer,” if Paul truly accepted the concept of cross-bought PERFECT-Grace (meaning, that ALL of Paul’s sins had been “taken AWAY”), why does Rocky find a need to keep gabbing on about sin?

To SEE sin is to be BLIND to the cross.

I find it very interesting, if we delete the word “sin” — specifically “and sin” — from Rocky’s question, the question reads: “Does this mean that we can go ahead...and not worry about it?”

Right on! That is exactly what it means.

This is exactly what “What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross” means to me. That I can continue onward in my relationship with the Living God of Light — go ahead with my Life — and not worry about it.

Perhaps “sin” itself is the “IT” in that powerful statement from the cross. “IT is finished.”

In my Heavenly Father’s eye, anything I’ve ever done, am doing or ever will do that anyone could ever consider to be “a sin” has been turned into NOTHING: If I trust that that is what was done for me on the cross, then for me, sin has now been completely nullified throughout my entire Life, past, present and future — IT has been turned into nothing. Likewise, my Heavenly Father sees it as nothing.

As far as I’m concerned, that’s the Good News.

It doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with my ability to maintain any given standard of righteousness, it has EVERYTHING to do with my ability to simply accept, 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts,” what’s been done for us on the cross.

Jesus said, “The road is narrow” (not hard). Perhaps hard to find, yes, especially with two thousand years of Christians talking and worrying about sin. AND… adding a thousand other things for us to do in place of the one and only thing we need do. Yes, hard to find, but certainly not hard. It’s a gift. It doesn’t have to be worked for. At ALL. It only has to be truly accepted.

Look how Rocky’s question (Romans 6:15) reads in the KJV: “What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?”

If this is closer to what Rocky wrote, then it only becomes clearer that the question itself is absurd. As true acceptors, shall we sin? Under PERFECT-Grace? How is it possible for us to do so? ALL of our sins (past, present and future) have been taken AWAY!

The choice is simple: what do we TRULY accept? That we have sin? Or that we have PERFECT-Grace? Under PERFECT-Grace we HAVE NO SIN.

There may not be a rational way to translate Rocky’s question at Romans 6:15. A case of garbage-in, garbage-out. Therefore, to clearly answer what Rocky is asking, we need a clearer question.

Here is one that cuts to the heart of the issue: Does my FREEDOM under PERFECT-Grace mean that I can do anything I want, say anything I wish, and think about anything I decide to think about without having to worry about “the horrible fury of God’s eternal judgment” hanging upon me?

The truthful answer to this question is an enthusiastic YES!

Why did Rocky answer untruthfully? Dread is his overwhelming reason. What would become of law and order (Rocky dreaded) had he honestly answered “yes” to such a question?

Peter is a PERFECT example of this kind of “proper-thinking.” It seemed proper to Peter (from his Good & Evil way of thinking) to stand in the way of Jesus on the road to Jerusalem. “NO! No way will I ever let such a terrible and evil thing happen to you, Lord!” Same way as it seems proper (to many Good & Evil thinking Christians) for Paul to answer “NO!” to his terribly worded question at Romans 6:15, so that “the cross” will not become an excuse to continue in sin.

In actuality, such logic is totally self-defeating.

 

[ScottA]

What does it mean… to truly accept… what’s been done for us on the cross?

Before I finish reading your full post:

"...old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."​

 

[The Third One]

To claim “belief” in the power of what was done for us on the cross, only to turn around and struggle with the prospect of continuing in sin, indicates a total lack of acceptance that any and ALL possible future “sins” have been just as thoroughly taken-AWAY as any past “sins.” They have ALL been turned into nothing.

The simple acceptance of this is the very thing that brings about the complete destruction of sin for the acceptor. From now on, for it to be a “sin” is for it to not be. It has been taken AWAY.

How PERFECT is that? This is our Father in Heaven’s cure for what ails us. Doesn’t it make sense that, PERFECT as our Father is in Heaven, His cure for us would be just as PERFECT? Of course it would.

If our doctors could only come up with such a PERFECT cure for cancer!

ALL we have to do… it truly TAKE the cure.

It is a gift.

It is not an “ordeal” with ALL sorts of clauses, red tape, fine-print, restrictions and requirements attached. WE are the ones who have reached back into Traditional-Religion and added ALL THAT to it. Starting with Rocky’s plane-crash/answer at Romans 6:16 to his problem/question at Romans 6:15. Forget about what’s been done for us… on “the cross.” To make this work… this Jesus-Thing… to make it work hand-in-hand with Pharisee-Extremism, the REALITY of Romans 6:14 (straight out of the Mouth of the Holy Spirit) must be thrown out of the airplane window (to gain lift).

At 40,000 feet, the result is catastrophic.

The “truly accepting what’s been done for us” part is obliterated in the devastating plane crash. The REALITY of “truly accepting” is completely destroyed and replaced with the stark uncertainty of “believing.” Believing in what? In some wood put together. “The Cross,” of course. A nice symbol of “faith.” Like “believing” in Santa Clause. A nice symbol of Christmas. The first “AND” “We must OBEY what’s been written in the Law.”

What happened to truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross?

Paul copyrighted (him being the first one to reduce it to paper) Real Grace, in the first five and-a-half chapters of his letter. And, then… Rocky came to his “senses” (his Pharisee senses) — and, in abject fear, Rocky questioned ALL of what he had previously written.

Truthfully, what Rocky is questioning at Romans 6:15 is the very dynamics of PERFECT-Grace itself.

He decides that absolute FREEDOM under PERFECT-Grace can only lead to absolute lawlessness. Finding his voice (amid ALL of the voices), Rocky stuffs Grace somewhere in the back of the bus in favor of “obeying obedience” (whatever that’s supposed to mean). I’ll take a stab at defining it. Man working… toward… his own righteousness — a righteousness that no man can never reach. In doing this, Rocky short-changes What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross… AND, in the process… he enslaves the Christian “believer” to Rocky’s own rooted slavery to the law... AND... Rocky's Pharisee-application of it.

AND, so… where does this lead? To a manifesto teeming with judgment after judgment; hatred of the flesh, Life and self; a piling on of rules and regulations; the endeavor to be “Christ-like” (a concept found in no Gospel, which, if pursued, is doomed to failure for anyone but Christ); and the ultimate, becoming DEAD to one’s self.

How could this brilliant, godly man have gotten it so right and then turned it so twisted?

Dread.

Doubt.

Stubborn head-strength.

Trying to force new wine into old wineskins.

And, there is plenty enough goodness and truth in what Paul/Rocky says for those who religiously follow Paul to pay little or no attention to the blaring caution lights.

You will never hear me judge Saul/Paul/Rocky as a person, or be silly enough to waste valuable Time trying to figure out whether his disaster is by error or design. But, I will say this: Rocky’s “brand new Christian house” was built on sand and filled with contradiction.

Not to make excuses for him, either... however… Rocky is a tragic victim of the Pharisee dogma that had been so pounded into him. To the powers-that-be, Religion has always served a number of social purposes. First and foremost, the proper restraint of the individual. With social community in mind, will the doctrine in question make a person a better law-abiding citizen? Make no mistake, Rocky was completely aware of his power as one of those powers-that-be. He was completely aware of his power of influence.

 

[The Third One]

ALL things considered, for Rocky it was less radical, more in tune with the law-abiding concepts of the world and simply much easier to follow the Voice of contradiction. A Voice of Darkness which plainly states that what was done for us on the cross is NOT enough. In addition to reducing PERFECT-Grace… to useless-grace… we must temper ALL that Cross-Bought FREEDOM… into slavery to righteousness.

This damning need for Religion to add ANYTHING to simply accepting what’s been done for us on the cross is a clear statement to God the Father (and to the world at large) that there IS NO such thing as PERFECT-Grace.

Paul was considered the most revered among the Pharisees. He “believed” in the Law. After ALL, we can’t have people running amuck sinning, now, can we? There has to be order. So... only one sentence after giving us the Good News that obtaining PERFECT righteousness is no longer based upon following the Law, Rocky's second-guess question-and-answer session completely reverses this Holy and Endearing Proclamation and buries us in age-old chains: we must generate OUR OWN righteousness through slave-like obedience. Obedience to what? Why to the law of course.

Rocky gives us two and only two options: we can be slaves or we can be slaves. Some option. Neither of these options have anything to do with what's been done for us on the cross. On the contrary, the better of Rocky’s two options takes us back to square one — having to “earn our way to Heaven” by following the letter of the Law, complete with Rocky’s laundry lists of dos and don’ts.

That type of thinking didn’t work before Jesus made the scene, so how is it supposed to work after? Simple. The good Christian must religiously DO whatever Rocky considers to be right, and NOT DO whatever Rocky considers to be wrong.

No doubt, Rocky must have been terribly frightened by the concept of PERFECT-Grace. If there is no more threat of hell and damnation for any person who simply and truly accepts what was done for him or her on the cross, we’d all be like James Bond (so to speak) and have a license to kill.

Personally, I KNOW for an absolute fact (for I have Lived a long time as a true acceptor) there is not anything to worry about. After ALL, even though James Bond has a license to kill, he doesn’t go around killing everyone to his heart’s content, now, does he? He maintains a self-imposed responsibility for his actions.

Likewise, even though I (as a true acceptor) have the blanket of God’s PERFECT-Grace upon me (and bear with me here as I use the word ‘sin’), I’m not going to run out and sin simply for the sake of sinning. Like, Hey! Isn’t this great? I can sin! I can SIN! Hurrah! Gosh... what should I do first? Tell a lie to someone? Or go kill my old math teacher now that I know I won’t burn in hell for it?

On the contrary, the allure of sin diminishes equally with the power I give to sin. I give it no power. It has no allure.

The forbidden-fruit becomes just-plain-old-fruit. And, then, how strange! Almost immediately, for some reason, just-plain-old-fruit is... well... just-plain-old-fruit and no longer as attractive. As time goes on, even less and less attractive in comparison to other fruit, until, ultimately, I can’t remember what happened to... what was it? Just-lame-old-zoot? “IT” goes ALL the way back to what it truly was to begin with. NOTHING. And, there’s nothing really that attractive about NOTHING.

Somewhere in the process, I begin to completely understand that “IT” never really was anything to begin with. All “sin” ever was, was just an empty concept. My mind has been set FREE. I no longer see it for what it supposedly was, which allows me to truly see it for what it isn’t, until I truly can’t see it at ALL.

See? (lol)

It’s not about gaining our FREEDOM to sin, as Paul feared; it’s about gaining our freedom from sin — from the entire concept of sin.

And, of course, with my ‘license to kill’ comes a great responsibility. Actually, it is only within the scope of my license to kill that I can attain and appreciate the capacity of being truly responsible.

“What? ScottA might ask. “You gain true responsibility because of your absolute FREEDOM?”

Absolutely. How do I run my shop? I’ve heard people say, “I wish I didn’t have a boss. I wish I could be my own boss, run my own business and do what I want.” The Truth of the matter is, when you run your own business — a successful one to be sure — that’s when you really learn what responsibility is ALL about.

It may surprise many fundamentalists (whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jew, etcetera) how many of our choices become crystal clear without the allure of sin clouding our judgment. Let’s see, do I want the fresh piece of fruit that’s juicy and sweet? Or do I want the rancid piece of fruit that’s teeming with maggots?

Gosh— I think I’ll go with the fresh ’n’ juicy one.

Does it strike you as ‘strange’ that with our new-found FREEDOM we would choose the good things? The right things? To absolutely know beyond the shadow of any doubt that we can choose what we know is right or we can choose what we know is wrong and still be seen just as PERFECTLY pure in the eyes of our Heavenly Father — are we afraid that if we absolutely know this, we would then purposefully not choose what we know is right, what we know is good? To a certainty, that’s exactly what Rocky feared.

 

[The Third One]

As a human being, alive in the flesh with a PERFECTLY clean slate, absolutely no guilt and absolutely no shame, what could possibly keep me from using my FREE license to ask my Heavenly Father to help and guide me? ALL of this FREEDOM comes equally equipped with a license to Live and let Live. And, if I so wish, I have the expressed right to expand that mantra into anything I’d like. It can even mean I have the license to love others as much as I love myself. It can easily mean I have the unalienable right to send the trespasses of those who would trespass against me to Never-Never Land, the natural empathy to sanctify those who would hurt me, the clarity to judge no one and the privilege to serve everybody.

If ever I do fail to live up to my own standards, I don’t have to horribly punish myself and worry and worry about "sin."

Rocky was afraid to answer “YES!” because he didn’t want the cross to be an excuse for people to go running amuck sinning.

Well, Paulie-boy, the obvious has already been brought to your attention. And, to this room's attention. It’s been almost two thousand years since you set this contradiction in motion, and people are still running amuck sinning.

Don't you just love Paul's letter to the Romans? I do. And, because of it, I'd love to return the favor and write PAUL a letter... with just one question. Always do your best to keep it short 'n' sweet (Right ScottA?)

My dear, dear brother Paul,

What were you so afraid of?

ALL my love,

The Third One

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Just curious: Has Judge Angry Brother given you and your sister your well-deserved parole hearing yet? For time served and good behavior?

he passed away a year ago from a bleeding ulcer.

I want to see what you speak of. I haven’t said thank you yet, but seriously thank you for all you have shared here with us. To me it has been a lot of help. I’ve read on further as you post more. The past couple nights I lay awake all night bitter and angry….and I can’t even pinpoint what I’m angry over. I do think you are sharing genuine help here, especially edifying help. I don’t want to be sick anymore. You asked somewhere in the beginning what would be enough? To me it would be; to be healthy in the mind. And I don’t mean getting rid of MS…but what is truly making me ill and exhausted.

 

[ScottA]

@VictoryinJesus, @ScottA, @The Learner, @face2face and ALL others,

Allow me to impose (my broken-up version of) a rhetorical question:

What does it mean… to truly accept… what’s been done for us on the cross?

I have been listening to you guys, very carefully, and I am still not hearing it click — the understanding of what true acceptance actually means.

The first negative word you guys hear about Paul… and (oh, my)… the big guns start blazing from those fixed fortifications.

How about if I were to share with you a little more detail from my RANSOMED perspective? My personal testimony as a true acceptor?

Let’s try some more of that.

If you have been following this thread… you know… I was ALL of six years old, the first time I really heard the story about Jesus dying on a cross. And, that he had willingly done this… to take AWAY the sin of the world.

Honestly, I did not feel compelled to “believe” it.

Instead, my first natural reaction was to reach out and grab it. Saying to myself (and to the Living God as I sat in that classroom), I’ll take that! Now, I don’t ever have to worry about this thing they call “sin.” One less thing.

That exact mindset remained undefeatable for 19 years, including 8 years of heavy-weight fights: The Third One versus The Third One’s Christian buds. Mind you, ALL this… with absolutely no help from anything in this world… other than my own personal and pure acceptance of what had been done for me on the cross.

And, then… at age 25 (the first time I ever read Paul’s letter to the Romans)… I about peed myself when I read the exact same undefeatable position… in the Bible!

You can read ALL about it for yourself throughout the first five chapters of Romans:

Romans 3:20-24 (Multiple Translation) “Do you finally see it? Nobody can ever become righteous in God’s eyes by following the Law. The more we learn about keeping the Law, ever deeper becomes our knowledge of Sin. But now — apart from Living a righteous Life and struggling to keep the commandments — the ability to stand absolutely PERFECT in the eyes of our Heavenly Father has already been manifested. The Law itself grants this right as does the testimony of the prophets! Now God says He will take every one of us, exactly as we are — utterly unworthy as we are, for there is no distinction of one being better than another — and justify us! FREELY! Without anything else required from us in return other than that we trust Jesus to take AWAY our sins!”

Romans 4:4 (Multiple Translation) “But didn’t he (Abraham) earn his right to Heaven by ALL the *Good* things he did?”

The Holy Spirit answers. And, Rocky dutifully pens Her answer:

Romans 4:5 (Multiple Translation) “No. For, deliverance from sin is a gift. If a person could earn it by being *Good,* then it wouldn’t be FREE — but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. By any man (truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross) his (true acceptance) IS his righteousness in God’s sight.”

And, most powerfully, Romans 6:14. Where the undefeatable position is summed-up… by none other than the Holy Spirit, Herself:

Romans 6:14 (Original Greek) “Sin will not rule over you! For you are not under the Law, but under Grace.”

As best as I can write it out for you, this is the psychological fortress I gained from truly accepting what’s been done for me on the cross. As a Christian would say… here is my personal testimony:

It doesn’t matter whether what I do is considered “right” or what I do is considered “wrong.” What matters is, WHATEVER I do, it cannot keep me from continuing to have a PERFECTLY unencumbered relationship with my Father in Heaven.

I have truly accepted that Jesus has died for ALL of my sin — past, present and future — it has ALL been taken AWAY. I have truly accepted this gift as my RANSOM (paid in full). Psychologically, this fortress is entirely undefeatable. I have something much more powerful than “sin” to truly accept.

To me, Jesus has neutralized anything that could ever be called “sin” in my Life, much in the same way a military force would neutralize an enemy target. He has taken it out of commission. He has turned it into nothing. Better put, he has turned it back into NOTHING, for it was NOTHING to begin with.

It is the very knowledge of sin that allows the concept of sin to take on a power unto itself.

We are not born into this world “in sin” as some philosophers have suggested; rather, we have to learn about “sin.” It’s not hard to imagine having no knowledge of “right” or “wrong,” because ALL of us are born into the world in that condition and remain so, as children, until we have the capacity to distinguish *right* from *wrong.* At that point, our innocence is truly gone.

The best I can ever hope to be is a little child. A pure soul.

Again, Jesus declared, ‘Unless you can become like this little child (he was holding) you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.’

So… how do I become like a little child?

By having total PERFECTION thrown upon me.

It’s so simple, it’s actually ridiculously simple. If, in my Father’s eyes (and mine), ALL of my sins, ALL of my evil, ALL of my self-perceived imperfections have been TAKEN AWAY, what is left for my Father to see?

A PERFECT person.

So...this has all been about your personal victory under Christ Jesus--a personal rationale?

If it is, fine--it's enough, and at the heart it is all well and good (minus some details we can discuss) and yet there is no great revelation here. Meanwhile, the word of God has its own rationale.

And a great revelation fitting of these times would rather be in accordance with the promise of being lead into "all truth" and "knowledge shall increase", and coming to know the things Christ had more to say about that His disciples having spent three years with Him could not then bear...things that flesh and blood could not bear without the Holy Spirit. An example would be like Paul announcing to the church after thousands of years of ignorance regarding the mystery of marriage, saying, “'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."' This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Ephesians 5:31-32

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So...this has all been about your personal victory under Christ Jesus--a personal rationale?

If it is, fine--it's enough, and at the heart it is all well and good (minus some details we can discuss) and yet there is no great revelation here. Meanwhile, the word of God has its own rationale.

And a great revelation fitting of these time would rather be in accordance with the promise of being lead into "all truth" and "knowledge shall increase", and coming to know the things Christ had more to say about that His disciples having spent three years with Him could not then bear...things that flesh and blood could not bear without the Holy Spirit. An example would be like Paul announcing to the church after thousands of years of ignorance regarding the mystery of marriage, saying, “'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."' This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Ephesians 5:31-32

maybe we are hearing something different. The message I’m hearing is the similar to even the gates of hell can’t prevail against—or overthrow—what has been done for us on the cross.

or similar to:
Acts 5:38-39 So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men [merely human in origin], it will fail and be destroyed; [39] but if it is of God [and it appears that it is], you will not be able to stop them; or else you may even be found fighting against God!"
? Or at least that so what I’m understanding or my take away… is the Power of the cross?

 

[ScottA]

My dear, dear brother Paul,

What were you so afraid of?

ALL my love,

The Third One

I can answer that..

Paul a servant of Jesus Christ was commissioned as the apostle to the gentiles (all other nations beyond Israel). Not being just one nation, but all other nations meant it would take time. For which Jesus showed him how things would go rather by grace and by weakness, that each would come "but each one in his own order" even beyond Paul who was restrained by a thorn in the flesh--not his only, but "all flesh" according to the prophecy of Joel. All of this being the plan of "not peace, but a sword", as we were appointed to "the mystery of lawlessness already at work" as he explained, "only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way", for a time Jesus had already defined, as, "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Which by example, he explained would come in the form of a similar blindness, just has it had come upon Israel and for the same reason--"that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" that "through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles." Such are the times of the gentiles.

 

[ScottA]

maybe we are hearing something different. The message I’m hearing is the similar to even the gates of hell can’t prevail against—or overthrow—what has been done for us on the cross.

or similar to:
Acts 5:38-39 So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men [merely human in origin], it will fail and be destroyed; [39] but if it is of God [and it appears that it is], you will not be able to stop them; or else you may even be found fighting against God!"
? Or at least that so what I’m understanding or my take away… is the Power of the cross?

That would all be good...except for pitting brother against brother and us against Paul who was commissioned by Jesus for these times.

You see, Jesus [by design] did not leave us "peace but at sword"...which was to carry us all the way through theses times with just the right measure of restraint and grace...and no more. It is this kind of extra amount of infighting introduced by The Third One (so-called) that we should consider is over the measure appointed to us by Christ; and being against Paul whom Jesus sent, falls into the realm of anti-Christ...which I do not say against him, but against Satan, just as Jesus did with Peter.

Meanwhile, there is a better explanation, which I have eluded to even in saying this much. The fact is that both Peter and also Paul warned of what we have experienced in the church since its founding 2,000 years ago--meaning Paul is not the culprit here, but rather the "false teachers" foretold by Peter, and elaborated by Paul about "strong delusion" and "great apostacy." Thus, our common enemy is not Paul, even in part, but is Satan...and ourselves for believing the "lie" that Paul warned about that brought it all into being.

 

[The Third One]

Dude... @ScottA

They still had multiple wives in Jesus' day. The sin of "adultery" had nothing to do with lusting after non-betrothed women. The sin of adultery is ALL about property. A man actually TAKING what already belongs to another man. The Pharisees were ALL about expanding the idea of Adultery from being, traditionally, a pure PROPERTY-SIN, to also include lust, itself. As a SIN, itself. For what purpose? To enslave the minds of those, back then, who saw no sin whatsoever in: "fornication" -- a man having mutually agreed-upon sex, with a non-betrothed woman... outside of the "holy ritual" of "a Priest" saying some "magic words" over the couple, in prelude to consummation. Jesus turned the Pharisees' guilt-imposing mind-game against their own selves. And, the Church-Taught understand what Jesus said and did to these sanctimonious A-holes about as well as the Church-Taught understand Jesus' satiricale joke he lays on every Pharisee... about one cutting off one's own God-Given hand in order to bypass Hell and get to Heaven.

In Paul/Rocky's "Christianity," men still took multiple wives. A man only has one appendage between his legs. In that, a man can only be "joined to his wife" one wife at a time. Doesn't change the fact that it was PERFECTLY kosher back in that day for a man to have as many wives as he could stand. Read Paul's letters. Why do you suppose one of the many requirements Rocky imposed upon "becoming a 'BISHOP'" was that a bishop could only have one wife? That was a specific distinction, Rocky made... against the generally agreed upon rule (of thumb): that it was okay for the everyday Christian to have as many wives as he needed. (I say "needed" to avoid ALL the "evil" connotations... had I used the word, "desired.")

Talk to you later @VictoryinJesus. Thanks for the encouragement. Gotta got to go to work.

 

[ScottA]

Here is something I am happy to state to y’all for the record. I love Paul. I love him as if he were my SIBLING brother. And, if Paul were right here, in front of me, I would tell him ALL of these exact same things, straight up, same as I have told you — same as I would honestly speak to my biological brother, had he gone off in a messed up direction and, consequentially… had greatly helped to spoil the most important thing in the universe.

@ScottA… are you listening? It is of no profit to point to this, that, the other thing or even ALL things strung together. Romans 6:16 is where it first happened.

Romans 6:16 is precisely where What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross went to Hell in a hand basket.

ALL the “thises,” “thats” and “other things” can be traced back to this one verse in Romans, where the solid Reality of Cross-Earned Righteousness is thrown OFF the airplane… in favor of the age old pursuit of Self-Earned Righteousness.

Yes, I know. These are tough-Truths for any die-hard Christian. We love Paul (our valiant Christian hero) and we DO NOT WANT to hear anyone talk any kind of “trash” about him.

You betray Paul with a kiss?

Regardless, it is not Romans 6:16 where things went wrong--that is just Paul repeating it (like a second chance).

Where things actually went wrong for the church is right where Jesus set it before the church, just as God had done before Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:17), and Moses had done before Israel (Deuteronomy 30:19) . Right here:

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:13-23
​

It is here that Jesus set before the church "flesh and blood" (death) and that which comes from the "Father" whom is spirit (life): A choice of life and death. Notice also that the word goes immediately on to another warning not to think as men--also using Peter, that no one would be mistaken and think more highly of him than they ought to--but showing him to have been under subjection of Satan.

Peter then goes on to warn of "false teachers" entering into the church, and Paul elaborates what would come as a result: the believing of a "lie", "strong delusion", and "great apostacy."

If you want to blame someone, do as Jesus did. Blame Satan.

 

[ScottA]

Dude... @ScottA

They still had multiple wives in Jesus' day. The sin of "adultery" had nothing to do with lusting after non-betrothed women. The sin of adultery is ALL about property. A man actually TAKING what already belongs to another man. The Pharisees were ALL about expanding the idea of Adultery from being, traditionally, a pure PROPERTY-SIN, to also include lust, itself. As a SIN, itself. For what purpose? To enslave the minds of those, back then, who saw no sin whatsoever in: "fornication" -- a man having mutually agreed-upon sex, with a non-betrothed woman... outside of the "holy ritual" of "a Priest" saying some "magic words" over the couple, in prelude to consummation. Jesus turned the Pharisees' guilt-imposing mind-game against their own selves. And, the Church-Taught understand what Jesus said and did to these sanctimonious A-holes about as well as the Church-Taught understand Jesus' satiricale joke he lays on every Pharisee... about one cutting off one's own God-Given hand in order to bypass Hell and get to Heaven.

In Paul/Rocky's "Christianity," men still took multiple wives. A man only has one appendage between his legs. In that, a man can only be "joined to his wife" one wife at a time. Doesn't change the fact that it was PERFECTLY kosher back in that day for a man to have as many wives as he could stand. Read Paul's letters. Why do you suppose one of the many requirements Rocky imposed upon "becoming a 'BISHOP'" was that a bishop could only have one wife? That was a specific distinction, Rocky made... against the generally agreed upon rule (of thumb): that it was okay for the everyday Christian to have as many wives as he needed. (I say "needed" to avoid ALL the "evil" connotations... had I used the word, "desired.")

I wasn't talking about marriage. Neither was Paul. Neither was God. It's always been a parable. And you did what people always do, you thought as men think. Not good.

 

[face2face]

So… to quote Rocky (from the Living Bible, in modern English): “Does this (the undefeatable position: that “Sin will not rule over you! For you are not under the Law, but under Grace”) mean that we can go ahead and sin and not worry about it?’

Perhaps Rocky’s biggest mistake, even bigger than how he answered this question, was how he went about asking this question.

As a “believer,” if Paul truly accepted the concept of cross-bought PERFECT-Grace (meaning, that ALL of Paul’s sins had been “taken AWAY”), why does Rocky find a need to keep gabbing on about sin?

To SEE sin is to be BLIND to the cross.

I find it very interesting, if we delete the word “sin” — specifically “and sin” — from Rocky’s question, the question reads: “Does this mean that we can go ahead...and not worry about it?”

Right on! That is exactly what it means.

This is exactly what “What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross” means to me. That I can continue onward in my relationship with the Living God of Light — go ahead with my Life — and not worry about it.

Perhaps “sin” itself is the “IT” in that powerful statement from the cross. “IT is finished.”

In my Heavenly Father’s eye, anything I’ve ever done, am doing or ever will do that anyone could ever consider to be “a sin” has been turned into NOTHING: If I trust that that is what was done for me on the cross, then for me, sin has now been completely nullified throughout my entire Life, past, present and future — IT has been turned into nothing. Likewise, my Heavenly Father sees it as nothing.

As far as I’m concerned, that’s the Good News.

It doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with my ability to maintain any given standard of righteousness, it has EVERYTHING to do with my ability to simply accept, 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts,” what’s been done for us on the cross.

Jesus said, “The road is narrow” (not hard). Perhaps hard to find, yes, especially with two thousand years of Christians talking and worrying about sin. AND… adding a thousand other things for us to do in place of the one and only thing we need do. Yes, hard to find, but certainly not hard. It’s a gift. It doesn’t have to be worked for. At ALL. It only has to be truly accepted.

Look how Rocky’s question (Romans 6:15) reads in the KJV: “What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?”

If this is closer to what Rocky wrote, then it only becomes clearer that the question itself is absurd. As true acceptors, shall we sin? Under PERFECT-Grace? How is it possible for us to do so? ALL of our sins (past, present and future) have been taken AWAY!

The choice is simple: what do we TRULY accept? That we have sin? Or that we have PERFECT-Grace? Under PERFECT-Grace we HAVE NO SIN.

There may not be a rational way to translate Rocky’s question at Romans 6:15. A case of garbage-in, garbage-out. Therefore, to clearly answer what Rocky is asking, we need a clearer question.

Here is one that cuts to the heart of the issue: Does my FREEDOM under PERFECT-Grace mean that I can do anything I want, say anything I wish, and think about anything I decide to think about without having to worry about “the horrible fury of God’s eternal judgment” hanging upon me?

The truthful answer to this question is an enthusiastic YES!

Why did Rocky answer untruthfully? Dread is his overwhelming reason. What would become of law and order (Rocky dreaded) had he honestly answered “yes” to such a question?

Peter is a PERFECT example of this kind of “proper-thinking.” It seemed proper to Peter (from his Good & Evil way of thinking) to stand in the way of Jesus on the road to Jerusalem. “NO! No way will I ever let such a terrible and evil thing happen to you, Lord!” Same way as it seems proper (to many Good & Evil thinking Christians) for Paul to answer “NO!” to his terribly worded question at Romans 6:15, so that “the cross” will not become an excuse to continue in sin.

In actuality, such logic is totally self-defeating.

Wow, I imagine you to be that type of person where you can't get a word in edgeways

If you hold to the substitutionary atonement theory like most Christians do, then the cross is made foolishness to you! They make God a debtor which is why these OSAS threads are prolific in Christian forums!

F2F

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That would all be good...except for pitting brother against brother and us against Paul who was commissioned by Jesus for these times.

I guess my head is just scrambled by all the endless debates. Which debates have included… did Paul still continue to wrestle with sin? What of the thorn given unto him in the flesh? How did he get this thorn? Not to debate but I’ve always wondered if that thorn was pride. The endless debates over; as long as we are alive and breathing in these bodies, no one is made perfect. Then there is always an opposing side to every topic. I think of when Jesus told the religious leaders, “you will die in your sins.” All the endless debates over every topic imaginable; A lot of those topics surrounding Pauls’ walk. Point is…I don’t want to disregard what to me is obviously meant to help by at least bringing attention to the cross and what was done for us on it. You mentioned pitting brother against brother? That happens all the time on this board. It even happens in the church where the message of what has been done for us on the cross becomes “us” against “them”… always “a people” against “a people” …see that which I shared concerning my mother and brother…both haven’t did the steps said to be required for receiving “a gift.” I once asked on here: why would my Father would want me to stand long-faced and miserable at funerals, crying with no hope for my loved ones …because by judging (you hear it all the time; I don’t think they ever chose to accept Salvation), every one assumes (including the message of judging that weasels to inside my head); of their burning in hell for all eternity. “Us” against “them”. I don’t hear the message of “us” against “them” but instead how you can love others as you love yourself.

You said “pitting brother against brother”
All of religion does this…
If someone can help me to stop being so judgmental and accusing of others…to me that isn’t pitting brother against brother but the opposite. One thing I do have with my mother, that I don’t have with others is this…I’ve fully stopped trying to fix her. We laugh together. I can take being with and around her because I’ve accepted at 91 she is who she is. Not trying “continually” the beat her into giving me something else, not trying to school her. Not trying to mold her into something else. And the third one did speak true in; I can’t throw the first stone at my mother. This I get. Because I could tell you all stories about what I’ve done.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

A person needs to define what is sin in their own lives by the Word of God and by the Spirit of God !

 

[L.A.M.B.]

 

[L.A.M.B.]