Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

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tigger 2

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Birthdays

JESUS' BIRTHDAY -
"Early Christians [from time of Christ until the 4th century] frowned on [celebrating anyone's birthday], which was too closely linked with pagan customs to be given the approval of the church." - How It Started, p. 213.

The Christian Book of Why, by Dr. John C. McCollister (Lutheran minister and university professor, graduate of Trinity Lutheran Seminary), Jonathan David Publishers, Inc., 1983, tells us on p. 205:

"Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus - for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by ALL Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord's) was a custom of the PAGANS. In an effort to divorce themselves from ALL pagan practices, the early Christians refused to set aside a date marking Jesus' birth. As a result, the first celebration of Christmas by Christians [?] did not take place until the fourth century."

Think about it for a moment. Exactly who were included in "ALL Christians of the first century" (1 A. D. - 100 A. D.)?

Yes, the Jews themselves never celebrated birthdays until long after the death of Jesus. They considered it a purely pagan custom and detestable to the God they worshiped. Jesus and his Apostles continued this belief and so did their followers for centuries!
"As late as 245 [A. D.] Origen (hom. viii. on Leviticus) repudiated the idea of keeping the birthday of Christ, `as if he were a king Pharaoh [Gen. 4:19-22].'" - Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th ed., p. 642, Vol. 5.

These are not "secrets" revealed to JWs alone!!!
 
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The Learner

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Robert,

Wow, this is moving fast! I wanted to comment before but am just getting back to it.

I am not sure I understand all of the JW beliefs or doctrine...but then again, there are many denominations of this who consider themselves to be Christian that are in error. That is not the criteria.

There is rather a narrow ribbon of faith that has always been that one either believes or does not. Where the way gets wide, is where men elaborate rather than God. I am not sure that the JW fall into that category. There would be a tipping point where the true gospel or Jesus becomes false. Be careful with that.

As for the idea that Jesus is not God...as I have heard is one distinction perhaps denied by the JW, I find no fault of doctrine to say that--but to a point. Having been born and becoming fully man, He would not qualify to be fully man (the Son of Man), if He were God--at least for a time. After which He must be referred to as God, for the gospels declare it, in that He is One with the Father, and was and now is again of the same glory. I would point out that the time of His becoming One with the Father was that time when the "Spirit of God descended like a dove and alight upon Him." From that point on it is He who walked among us even as both man and God, having "his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land", by that manner of speaking.

Stay close.
The teachings of the Watchtower clearly falls in the catagory of "false teachers". The early church defined the "rule of faith" which includes the deity of Christ. JW's follows the false teachings of Arius.
 
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The Learner

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The Bible is complete Ron, Christians did not celebrate christmas, and they set the example. You fail to see that there is religious overtones in almost everything sir. Practicing the traditions offered to pagan gods is certainly not pleasing to Jehovah, correct?
Nothing like the outdated Copy Cat Thesis. Robert you are a very funny guy who lacks simple logic.

Mitrha vs Jesus
Classic Works of Apologetics - Copycat Myth-takes
Pagan copycat thesis refuted - creation.com
Shattering the Christ Myth - James Patrick Holding · 2008
The Babylon Connection? By Ralph Woodrow

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 

The Learner

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Thank you Ron, We agree that is Yahweh/Jehovah, but that title is applying to Him sir not to Jesus. You believe the title first and last is applied to Jesus exclusively, but it is not.
(Isaiah 41:4) . . .Who has acted and done this, Summoning the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the First One; And with the last ones I am the same.”

The title applies to Jesus in this verse: (Revelation 1:17, 18) 17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.

If it wasn't for the rest of the Bible, it would be easy to conclude these two individuals were the same person, but of course the Bible interprets itself Ron, it cannot contradict other passages.

I apologize for not addressing this further previously, as you stated before as now that was referring to Yahweh, or in English Jehovah. Because of the first and last being applied to Him, you compared it to Jesus being called that as well. I understand, but like I said, it has to harmonize with the rest of the Bible, if it doesn't our understanding is what is in error, not the Bible sir.
In early reconstructed Hebrew NT Yahweh is clearly applied to Jesus.
 

Keiw

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Denominations who believes in the Trinity are not divided on Major Theology.


1Cor 1:10--Unity of thought( ALL of Gods 1 truth) no division.= a true mark of the one single religion that has Jesus.
 

marks

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... and my point is made with an exclamation point! ;)
I am in your debt.
I could not have proven the futility of the debate better myself.

(For the sake of those playing along on the HOME EDITION of "Is Jesus God?" ... all of the native speakers in the crowd that heard EXACTLY what Jesus said and collected stones to kill Jesus for claiming equality with God disagree with JW conclusion and scholarship of their language. One is free to doubt that Jesus IS GOD, but one cannot honestly doubt that Jesus CLAIMED TO BE God.)
Just so! They understood what Jesus was saying. So we can either accept that fact, or ignore it, but it does not go away.

Much love!
 
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marks

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As I said, the Jews that wanted to stone Him disagree with you.
For that matter, so does the Apostle John who parallels Christ with Genesis 1:1.
And Paul who paralleled Isaiah . . . So says YHWH, every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear to Me, the only God and Savior, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess . . . Jesus Christ . . .

All you have to do is be willing to see it.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Were John Q and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be
questioned if they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure
you they would answer in the affirmative. However, they and the interviewer
wouldn't be speaking the same language as the conversation would be
talking about two very different processes that go by the same name. In
other words: the interviewer would soon find themselves thrown off by
semantic double speak.

In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to
relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how
in Society theology it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and
a physical being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't
go completely out of existence. Instead, his so-called "life force" remained
intact and was transferred to a human form.

"the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth.
Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the
same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible
Understanding, 1971, p.920)

"He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum
of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)

But Michael's existence as a physical being was only temporary. When his
human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God
transferred Michael's life force back into his angel form thus restoring him to
his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a
permanent state of decease and its remains are squirreled away on earth in
a condition, and a location, known only to God, viz: the JW's Jesus is still
dead.


FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified human form had to stay
dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the
Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased. An
additional explanation is given on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the
Watchtower magazine; where it's stated:

"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
taking his sacrifice off God's altar."
_
@Robert Gwin

Is this above ^^^ true?

Much love!
 

marks

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Jehovah's Witnesses that God destroyed Jesus body and He spiritually rose. thyus they cannot be Christians for they deny the physical resurrection.
@Robert Gwin

@Ronald Nolette

@DavidB

Again, is this true, Robert?

If this is true, then no. John in his letter makes it clear Jesus came in flesh, perfect tense, He remained that way.

1 John 4:1-3 KJV
1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

upload_2022-10-6_15-30-40.png

"Spiritual" resurrection, no, Jesus rose bodily from among the dead, and according to John, one's belief in this regard shows whether they are Christian or antichrist.

I'm not saying this . . . John did.

Much love!
 
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The Learner

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Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation

God has other firstborn besides Christ

The people of Israel (Ex 4:22)

David (Ps 89:20-27)


The Greek word translated "firstborn" above is prototokos, which never
means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek word
for created first is protoktistos.

The average JW probably doesn't know the difference between prototokos
and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some;
born first and created first are one and the same.

The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The
term also refers to superiority, and as such is transferrable, viz: it's possible
to circumvent the eldest son and give his advantages to a younger, e.g.
Esau to Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh to Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and
Reuben to Joseph (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).

In the beginning, Adam was the ranking man over all Earth (Gen 1:26-28)
but he has since been superseded by one of his descendants. (Dan 7:13-14,
John 3:35, 1Cor 15:27, Phil 2:8-11, Heb 1:2)
_
15 The Son [L …who] is ·the image of [exactly like; the visible representation of] the invisible God [John 1:18; Heb. 1:3]. He ·ranks higher than [L is the firstborn of/over] ·everything that has been made [all creation; Prov. 8:22–30]. 16 ·Through his power [L In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; L thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; C these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ. 17 He ·was there before anything was made [L is before all things], and all things ·continue [endure; or hold together; unite] ·because of [or in] him. 18 He is the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning [C meaning (1) the source of the church; (2) the creator of all things; or (3) the beginning/initiator of the end-time resurrection]. He is the ·first one who was raised [L firstborn] from the dead. So in all things Jesus has ·first place [supremacy]. 19 God was pleased for all ·of himself [that he is; L of his fullness] to live in ·Christ [or the Son; L him]. 20 And through ·Christ [L him], God has ·brought all things back to himself again [L reconciled all things to himself]—things on earth and things in heaven. ·God made [L …by making] peace through the blood of ·Christ’s death on the cross [L his cross].
 

The Learner

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No doubt you are familiar with the second of the 10 commandments about graven images. Saturn is a god, those christmas traditions were dedicated to him, and remain the same including the time period selected. While we do not know the day of Jesus' birth, we do know the approximate time, and it was not during the winter solstice. How do you think God feels about someone worshipping a pagan god with rituals, and then changing their minds and doing it for Him? Here is my notes on birthdays sir:
Birthday celebrations

Many religious persons in society today feel that there is nothing wrong with celebrating birthdays. If however, a person wants to serve the true God and be one of His people, we need to make sure that doing so would be pleasing to Him, and by doing so we would bring glory to His name.
Let us go back in history to before God had made a covenant with His nation Israel. When Joseph was in Egypt and was in prison, the first recorded birthday celebration was found in the Bible, at Gen.40:20-23:
20 Now on the third day it turned out to be Phar'aoh’s birthday, and he proceeded to make a feast for all his servants and to lift up the head of the chief of the cupbearers and the head of the chief of the bakers in the midst of his servants. 21 Accordingly he returned the chief of the cupbearers to his post of cupbearer, and he continued to give the cup into Phar'aoh’s hand. 22 But the chief of the bakers he hung up, just as Joseph had given them the interpretation. 23 However, the chief of the cupbearers did not remember Joseph and went on forgetting him.
In this account there is no mention of any of God=s people attending this celebration, and the celebration was of a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh (king), who notably in history considered himself as being God (See page 4 to see how this compares with the satanic bible). Notice too, a death resulted from this celebration.
The next (and last) recorded birthday celebration occurs when Christ was on earth and was also by another pagan king Herod Antipas (who was also instrumental in the death of our king Jesus) and is found at Mat. 14:6-10:
6 But when Herod‘s birthday was being celebrated the daughter of HeAro'dias danced at it and pleased Herod so much 7 that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Then she, under her mother=s coaching, said: “Give me here upon a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 9 Grieved though he was, the king out of regard for his oaths and for those reclining with him commanded it to be given; 10 and he sent and had John beheaded in the prison.
Again we have another pagan king celebrating his birthday with no record of any of Christ’s followers in attendance, or none of the Jews for that matter, and since all things written in the Bible are for our instruction:
Romans 15:4
4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.
we need to ask ourselves; does the Bible put birthday celebrations in a favorable light? It does not appear to. Let’s look at some more information:
According to the satanic bible: the #1 holiday is your birthday, even above Halloween’ it states: The highest of all holidays in the satanic religion is the date of one’s own birth. This is in direct contradiction to the holy of holy days of other religions, which deify a particular god who has been created in an anthropomorphic form of their own image, thereby showing that the ego is not really buried.


Page 2
The Satanist feels: “why not really be honest and if you are going to create a god in your image, why not create that god as yourself.” Every man is a god if he chooses to recognize himself as one. So, the Satanist celebrated his own birthday as the most important holiday of the year. (See page 4). With the above information, combined with the satanic bible, it would appear that God would not approve of it. You may say it is a small thing, but: 1 Corinthians 10:21
21 YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of the table of Jehovah and the table of demons.

Well since a Christian is a follower of Christ, whom imitates his example
( 1 Peter 2:21 In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.), what did the followers of Christ do? They did leave us examples to follow: Philippians 3:17
17 Unitedly become imitators of me, brothers, and keep YOUR eye on those who are walking in a way that accords with the example YOU have in us.
We learned that the Bible did not record any of God’s people attending either of the two recorded birthday celebrations, how about other sources? “The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.“: The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225.
“The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating; complete with lighted candles; in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.“: Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.
“The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea. . . . This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. . . . The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. . . . Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. . . . Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune. . . . Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. . . . Originally the idea was rooted in magic. . . . Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day.“: The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp. 8, 18-20.
With the introduction of Christianity the viewpoint toward birthday celebrations did not change. Jesus inaugurated a binding Memorial, not of his birth, but of his death, saying: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Lu 22:19) If early Christians did not celebrate or memorialize the birthday of their Savior, much less would they celebrate their own day of birth. Historian Augustus Neander writes: “The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period.” (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, translated by H. J. Rose, 1848, p. 190)
“Origen [a writer of the third century C.E.] . . . insists that ‘of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below.‘”: The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Vol. X, p. 709.
Page 3
Clearly, then, the festive celebration of birthdays does not find its origin in either the Hebrew or the Greek Scriptures. Additionally, M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1882, Vol. I, p. 817) says the Jews “regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship . . . , and this probably on account of the idolatrous rites with which they were observed in honor of those who were regarded as the patron gods of the day on which the party was born.

Le livre des religions (The Book of Religions), an encyclopedia widely distributed in France, calls this custom a ritual and lists it among “secular rites.” Although considered to be a harmless secular custom today, birthday celebrations are actually rooted in paganism.

The Encyclopedia Americana (1991 edition) states: The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles.
Authors Ralph and Adelin Linton reveal the underlying reason for this. In their book The Lore of Birthdays, they write: Mesopotamia and Egypt, the cradles of civilization, were also the first lands in which men remembered and honored their birthdays. The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope. This direct connection with astrology is a cause of great concern to any who avoid astrology because of what the Bible says about it. Isaiah 47:13-15.

The World Book Encyclopedia: The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom. Volume 3, page 416.
Very poor copycat logic.
 

marks

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We say the sacrifice was corresponding, in other words Jesus gave his flesh and blood as a sacrifice forever, he did not take it back sir.
This is true, then, that you do not believe Jesus physically rose from the dead.

1 John 4:1-3 KJV
1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

"come in the flesh" is in the perfect tense, meaning, He remains in flesh.

So, I don't have to answer . . . The Bible answers for you.

Much love! And an invitation to reconsider.
 

marks

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@Robert Gwin

If you think your New World Translation is safe because it is not based on the Nestle and Aland text, but only on the Westcott and Hort text, you will find that Westcott and Hort believed in the practices of Catholicism big time. Just look at their own statements. This is why your change to follow Westcott and Hort is not good. But of course you are oblivious to this kind of thing and you will probably bury your head in the sand to such truths (Because you don’t want to see it).
I'm learning many things on this thread. Like this. I had know idea the NWT was based on Westcott and Hort. Wow!

Much love!
 

The Learner

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Google Watchtower: Celebrating Christmas 1908-1926 - cover picture is of Christmas at Bethel in 1926 Merry Christmas from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society!
Watchtower: Celebrating Christmas 1908-1926 | PDF | Last Judgment | Wisdom
""Even though Christmas is not the real anniversary of our Lord's birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting (Luke 1:28), nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate - "Christmas day."" Zion's Watch Tower 1904 Dec 1 p.364"
g1919christmas.jpg

g22christmas.jpg

The following picture includes four Watchtower Presidents - Rutherford, Knorr, Franz and Henschel - celebrating Christmas at Bethel in 1926.
1926-christmas-bethel.jpg
 

Wrangler

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Some of Christianity's supernatural elements are not only difficult to accept,
but even more difficult to comprehend.

For example: according to 1Cor 15:45-47, Christ exists as a spirit being and a
material being simultaneously.

* Folks coming to Christianity expecting to find a religion that makes sense
are likely to be disappointed.
_
Your ilk are certainly doing your all to drive such people away.
 

The Learner

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christmas-way-to-paradise-van-amburgh-p30-photo.jpeg

The following quote from the 1975 Yearbook makes it appear that birthdays stopped being celebrated shortly after Christmas in 1928.

"After that, the brothers at Bethel never celebrated Christmas again. "Did we mind putting those pagan things away?" asks Charles John Brandlein. "Absolutely not. This was just complying with new things learned, and we had never known before they were pagan. It was just like taking a soiled garment off and throwing it away." Next, birthday celebrations and Mother's Day were discarded-more creature worship. Sister Lilian Kammerud recalls: "How readily the brothers all dropped these holidays and admitted they were glad to be free. New truths always make us happy and . . . we felt we were privileged to know things that others were ignorant about.""Yearbook 1975 p.147
 

Wrangler

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according to 1Cor 15:45-47, Christ exists as a spirit being and a
material being simultaneously.
Buddy, we all do. Soul = body + Spirit (from God, returning to God)

The peculiar thing is how often trinitarians assert things Jesus does make him God but are silent on how other people do the very same thing undermine the claim.
 
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