Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[The Learner]

For the Son is the Word, and therefore we are not to understand that anything in him is recognizable by the senses. He is Wisdom, and in wisdom there can be no suspicion of anything corporeal. (De Principiis I:2:6)

[The Son] is the true Light which enlightens every man that comes into this world, but he has nothing in common with the light of the sun. Our Savior, therefore, is the image of the invisible God, inasmuch as compared with the Father himself he is the Truth, and as compared with us, to whom he reveals the Father, he is the image by which we come to the knowledge of the Father, whom no one knows save the Son and he to whom the Son is pleased to reveal him. And the method of revealing him is through the understanding, for he by whom the Son himself is understood understands, as a consquence, the Father also, according to his own words, "He that has seen me has seen the Father also" [Jn. 14:9]. (De Principiis I:2:6)

The Son of God, who was in the form of God, divesting himself [of his glory], makes it his object … to demonstrate to us the fullness of his deity. For instance, suppose that there were a statue so enormous that it filled the whole world and which, because of its size, could be seen by no one. [Now suppose] another statue were formed completely resembling it … so that those who were unable to behold the one of enormous proportions should, on seeing the latter, acknowledge that they had seen the former … By some such similitude the Son of God, divesting himself of his equality with the Father and showing us the way to the knowledge of him, is made the express image of his person. (De Principiis I:2:8)

 

[The Learner]

The Son of God, though placed in the very insignificant form of a human body, showed that there was in him an immense and invisible greatness because of the resemblance of h is words and power to the Father. (De Principiis I:2:8)

The following very long quote is included because it gives such an unusual and full picture of the Son's relationship to the Father. It's very, um … abstract.

However, if we understand that the whole church understood the Son to have been generated [birthed or begotten in an inexplicable way] as the Word and Wisdom of God in the beginning, then this passage explains Origen's argument that the Son was always generated and that his generation was before the beginning.

Let us see now what is the meaning of the expression which is found in the Wisdom of Solomon [included in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox canons and some of the pre-Nicene lists of books of Scripture], where it is said of Wisdom that "it is a kind of breath of the power of God, the purest efflux of the glory of the Almighty, the splendor of the Eternal Light, the spotless mirror of the working or power of God, and the image of his goodness" [Wisdom 7:25-26]. These, then, are the definitions which he gives of God, pointing out by each one of them certain attributes of the Wisdom of God … With all propriety he says that Wisdom is the breath of the power of God … although the breath of all this mighty and immeasurable power … proceed from the power itself, as the will does from the mind, yet even this will of God is nevertheless made to become the power of God. Another power, accordingly, is produced, which exists with properties of its own, a kind of breath, as Scripture says, of the primal and unbegotten power of God, deriving from him its being and never at any time non-existent. For if anyone were to assert that it did not formerly exist, but came into existence afterwards, let him explain the reason why the Father, who gave it being, did not do so before. If he shall grant that there was once a beginning, when that breath proceeded from the power of God, we shall ask him again, why not even before the beginning? … By which it is shown that the breath of God's power always existed, having no beginning save God himself. … And according to the expression of the apostle, that Christ is "the power of God" [1 Cor. 1:24] it ought to be termed not only the breath of the power of God, but power out of power. (De Principiis I:2:9)

Hippolytus, c. AD 225
These things then, brothers, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy [the "order" or "plan"] and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" [Jn. 1:1]. If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy, viz., the grace of the Holy Spirit. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is revealed, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One. It is the Father who commands, and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding: the Father who is above all, and the Son who is through all, and the Holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot otherwise think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit. ... The Father’s Word, therefore, knowing the economy and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" [Matt. 28:19]. And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. ("Against the Heresy of One Noetus." par. 14. In Ante-Nicene Fathers. Vol. V. American Ed. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1885.)

 

[The Learner]

Eusebius of Caesarea (the historian), c. AD 325
Whoever then defines the Son as made of things that are not, and as a creature produced from nothing pre-existing, forgets that while he concedes the name of Son, he denies him to be a Son in reality. For he that is made of nothing, cannot truly be the Son of God, any more than the other things which have been made; but the true Son of God, forasmuch as he is begotten of the Father, is properly denominated the only-begotten and beloved of the Father. For this reason also, he himself is God; for what can the offspring of God be, but the perfect resemblance of him who begot him?

A sovereign indeed builds a city, but does not beget it; and is said to beget a son, not to build one. An artisan, also, may be called the framer, but not the father of his work; while he could by no means be styled the framer of him whom he had begotten. So also the God of the Universe is the Father of the Son; but might be fitly termed the Framer and Maker of the world. And although it is once said in Scripture, "The Lord created me the beginning of his ways on account of his works" [Prov. 8:22], yet it becomes us to consider the import of this phrase, which I shall hereafter explain; and not, as Marcellus has done, from a single passage to jeopardize the most important doctrine of the church. (cited in Ecclesiastical History of Socrates Scholasticus II:21)

Athanasius, AD 325 - 370
We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father without beginning and eternally ... We believe, likewise, also in the Holy Spirit that searcheth all things, even the deep things of God ... But just as a river, produced from a well, is not separate, and yet there are in fact two visible objects and two names. For neither is the Father the Son, nor the Son the Father. For the Father is Father of the Son, and the Son, Son of the Father. For like as the well is not a river, nor the river a well, but both are one and the same water which is conveyed in a channel from the well to the river, so the Father’s deity passes into the Son without flow and without division. For the Lord says, 'I came out from the Father and am come' (Joh. xvi. 28). But He is ever with the Father, for He is in the bosom of the Father, nor was ever the bosom of the Father void of the deity of the Son. ... But we do not regard God the Creator of all, the Son of God, as a creature, or thing made, or as made out of nothing, for He is truly existent from Him who exists, alone existing from Him who alone exists, in as much as the like glory and power was eternally and conjointly begotten of the Father. ("Statement of Faith" 1-2. Found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Series 2, Vol. 204.)

 

[The Learner]

For His Only-begotten Son might, ye Arians, be called 'Father' by His Father, yet not in the sense in which you in your error might perhaps understand it, but (while Son of the Father that begat Him) 'Father of the coming age' (Isa. ix. 6, LXX). For it is necessary not to leave any of your surmises open to you. Well then, He says by the prophet, 'A Son is born and given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Angel of Great Counsel, mighty God, Ruler, Father of the coming age (Isa. ix. 6). The Only-begotten Son of God, then, is at once Father of the coming age, and mighty God, and Ruler. And it is shewn clearly that all things whatsoever the Father hath are His, and that as the Father gives life, the Son likewise is able to quicken whom He will. For 'the dead,' He says, shall hear the voice of the Son, and shall live' (cf. John v. 25), and the will and desire of Father and Son is one, since their nature also is one and indivisible. And the Arians torture themselves to no purpose, from not understanding the saying of our Saviour, 'All things whatsoever the Father hath are Mine.' For from this passage at once the delusion of Sabellius can be upset, and it will expose the folly of our modern Jews. ("On Luke X. 22." 5. As found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Series 2. Vol. 204.)

This enables us to see, brethren, that they of Nicaea breathe the spirit of Scripture, in that God says in Exodus, "I am that I am" [Ex. 3:14]; and through Jeremiah, "Who is in his substance and has seen his word" [Jer. 23:18, LXX]; and just below, "if they had stood in my subsistence and heard my words" [Jer. 23:22, LXX]. Now subsistence is essence, and means nothing else but very being, which Jeremiah calls existence in the words, "and they heard not the voice of existence" [Jer. 9:10, LXX]. For subsistence, and essence, is existence: for it is, or in other words exists. This Paul also perceiving wrote to the Hebrews, "who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his subsistence." (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 4)

If "through him all things were made" [Jn. 1:3], and he too is a creature, he would be the creator of himself! And how can what is being created create? Or he that is creating be created? (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 4)

But the bishops [at the Council of Nicea] ... expressed the sense of the words "of God" more plainly by writing that the Son is of the essence [or "substance"] of God, so that whereas the Creatures, since they do not exist of themselves without a cause, but have a beginning of their existence, are said to be "of God" [as well], the Son alone might be deemed proper to the essence of the Father. For this is peculiar to one who is only-begotten and true Word in relation to a Father, and this was the reason why the words "of the substance" were adopted [in the Nicene Creed]. (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 5)

If ... [Arians] are asked, "how is [the Son] like [the Father]?," they brazenly reply, "By perfect virtue and harmony, by having the same will with the Father, by not willing what the Father does not will." But let them understand that one assimilated to God by virtue and will is liable also to the purpose of changing, but the Word is not thus ... These characteristics belong to us, who are originate [i.e., had a beginning] and of a created nature. For we, too, ... by progress in virture imitate God, the Lord grating us this grace in the words, "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful" "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" [Luke 6:36; Matt. 5:48]. But that originate things are changeable, no one can deny, seeing that angels transgressed, Adam disobeyed, and all stand in need of the grace of the Word. But a mutable things cannot be like God who is truly unchangeable any more than what is created can be like its Creator. That is why, with regard to us, the holy man said, "Lord, who shall be compared to you," and, "Who among the gods is like you, Lord" [Ps. 83:1, LXX; Ps. 86:8]. (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 7)

But what is that which is proper to and identical with the substance of God, and an Offspring from it by nature, if not by this very fact consubstantial with him that begat it? For this is the distinctive relation of a Son to a Father, and he who denies this does not hold that the Word is Son in nature and in truth. ... But if even after such proofs and after the the testimony of the ancient bishops and the signature of their own father they pretend, as if in ignorance, to be alarmed at the phrase "consubstantial" [a reference to homoousios in the Nicene Creed], then let them say and hold, in simpler terms and truly, that the Son is Son by nature and anathematize, as the synod enjoined, those who say that the Son of God is a creature or a thing made, or of nothing, or that there was a time when he was not, and that he is mutable and liable to change and of another subsistence. And so let them escape the Arian heresy. And we are confident that in sincerely anathematizing those views, they ipso facto confess that the Son is of the Father's substance and consubstantial with him. (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 8-9)

No Christian can have a doubtful mind on the point that our faith is not in the creature, but in one God, Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, his only-begotten Son, and in one Holy Spirit; one God, known in the holy and perfect Trinity, baptized into which, and in it united to deity, we believe that we have also inherited the kingdom of the heavens, in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa 11)

Because of the oneness of the Word with the Father, they will not have the Son belong to things originated, but rightly regard him as Creator of things that are made. Why then do they say that the Holy Spirit is a creature, who has the same oneness with the Son as the Son with the Father ? Why have they not understood that, just as by not dividing the Son from the Father they ensure that God is one, so by dividing the Spirit from the Word they no longer ensure that the Godhead in the Triad is one, for they tear it asunder, and mix with it a nature foreign to it and of a different kind, and put it on a level with the creatures? On this showing, once again the Triad is no longer one but is compounded of two differing natures ; for the Spirit, as they have imagined, is essentially different. What doctrine of God is this, which compounds him out of creator and creature? Either he is not a Triad, but a dyad, ' with the creature left over. Or, if he be Triad — as indeed he is ! — then how do they class the Spirit who belongs to the Triad with the creatures which come after the Triad ? For this, once more, is to divide and dissolve the Triad. (Letter to Serapion I:2)

Tell us, then, is there any passage in the divine Scripture where the Holy Spirit is found simply referred to as 'spirit' without the addition of 'of God', or 'of the Father', or 'my', or 'of Christ' himself, and 'of the Son', or 'from me' (that is, from God), or with the article so that he is called not simply 'spirit' but 'the Spirit', or the very term 'Holy Spirit' or 'Paraclete' or 'of Truth' (that is, of the Son who says, 'I am the Truth'),— that, just because you heard the word 'spirit', you take it to be the Holy Spirit? ... To sum up, unless the article is present or the above-mentioned addition, it cannot refer to the Holy Spirit. (Letter to Serapion I:4)

Trinity Quotes from Christian History
Quotes from the Early Church Fathers: on the Trinity - Apostles Creed

 

[The Learner]

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Those men were taught by the Apostles and others were in the line of those lessons. Cleary Jesus taught that there will not be a great Apostasy.

 

[ScottA]

Jehovah's witnesses believe they are real Christians. Why? What Scriptural evidence is there to support that belief?

What do we base our beliefs on?
Jesus said at Jn 17:17 Your word is truth! We believe the 66 books of the Bible is His word of truth. All of our beliefs are based on what the Bible says, even if it differs from church doctrine.

Why do we call ourselves Jehovah's witnesses? When speaking to His people, God whose name is Jehovah said: You are my witnesses, as recorded for us at Isa 43:10. Jesus himself is the most famous witness of Jehovah, being called the Faithful Witness in God's word Rev 1:5. He bore testimony about his God Jehovah as Jehovah's witnesses still do today.

Although God's people have always been under law to love each other, Jesus actually gave us a new commandment about loving each other Jn 13:34,35, this was to be a sacrificial love as he had for his sheep. So how do Jehovah's witnesses obey that commandment? We love our brothers and sisters as family, even calling one another as such. We do not let national boundaries divide us, as we have love for the whole association of brothers 1 Pet 2:17 We always come to the aid of our brothers and sisters around the world who are in need.

Do true Christians change their beliefs? Jehovah told Daniel, who wanted to understand the things he penned in the Bible to seal up the book until the time of the end, when knowledge would become abundant. Proverbs 4:18 says the path of the righteous is like the morning light that gets brighter and brighter as day dawns. We believe we are living in those last days as most do, and as we perceive established Bible doctrine being revealed to be incorrectly understood, we are willing to adjust our understanding and continue to move forward.

Jesus made God's name known Jn 17:26; and he stated very clearly to satan who tried to get his worship that it is written; it is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to Him alone you render sacred service Mat 4:10. We worship Jehovah exclusively, as the verse Jesus quoted said Deut 6:13

So are Jehovah's witnesses Christians?

Robert,

Wow, this is moving fast! I wanted to comment before but am just getting back to it.

I am not sure I understand all of the JW beliefs or doctrine...but then again, there are many denominations of this who consider themselves to be Christian that are in error. That is not the criteria.

There is rather a narrow ribbon of faith that has always been that one either believes or does not. Where the way gets wide, is where men elaborate rather than God. I am not sure that the JW fall into that category. There would be a tipping point where the true gospel or Jesus becomes false. Be careful with that.

As for the idea that Jesus is not God...as I have heard is one distinction perhaps denied by the JW, I find no fault of doctrine to say that--but to a point. Having been born and becoming fully man, He would not qualify to be fully man (the Son of Man), if He were God--at least for a time. After which He must be referred to as God, for the gospels declare it, in that He is One with the Father, and was and now is again of the same glory. I would point out that the time of His becoming One with the Father was that time when the "Spirit of God descended like a dove and alight upon Him." From that point on it is He who walked among us even as both man and God, having "his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land", by that manner of speaking.

Stay close.

 

[Keiw]

The 34,000 quoute is well known to be a poor source. They count each Church as a denominitaion. In fact, there are hundreds of denomininations for the Catholic Church in their Encylopedia. I corresponded with the author of the Encyopedia and She explained that it was a social count, not an actual count of denominations.

There are still MANY trinity religions= a house divided will not stand.

 

[Robert Gwin]

And Scripture says they are nothing! Paul said eat whatever is placed before you- that meant meat offered to idils.

Once again these are all just external things- shallow spiritual people look on the superficial, God looks on the heart!

Having a Christmas tree to worship the Druid king or pagan god is evil.

Having a Christmas tree to celebrate crass commercialism is evil.
Having a Christmas tree to celebrate the birth of Emmanuel (God becoming flesh and being with us) is OKAY according to the bible.

Romans 14
King James Version

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


YOu are weak in the faith so don't put a tree in your house. Course if you do you will be disfellowshipped.

1 Corinthians 10:25-30
King James Version

25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

28 But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?


this is meat sacrificed to idols! Paul said eat and give thanks! but if one is with you and says it is sacrificed to idols- don't eat, because their conscience is weak!

Do you actually believe that Christmas trees are sacrificed to demons before they hit the tree lots?????????????????????

The Bible is complete Ron, Christians did not celebrate christmas, and they set the example. You fail to see that there is religious overtones in almost everything sir. Practicing the traditions offered to pagan gods is certainly not pleasing to Jehovah, correct?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Last time. If you cannot see it this time- then yes you are too dense spiritually. And I will even include a free grammar lesson and parse this compound sentence fo you.

Isaiah 44:6
King James Version

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


1. Thus saith Yahweh, King of Israel, I am the first.............
2. Thus saith Yahwehs redeemer--- Yahweh of hosts, I am the first...............

Jesus is called yahweh here!

Thank you Ron, We agree that is Yahweh/Jehovah, but that title is applying to Him sir not to Jesus. You believe the title first and last is applied to Jesus exclusively, but it is not.
(Isaiah 41:4) . . .Who has acted and done this, Summoning the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the First One; And with the last ones I am the same.”

The title applies to Jesus in this verse: (Revelation 1:17, 18) 17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.

If it wasn't for the rest of the Bible, it would be easy to conclude these two individuals were the same person, but of course the Bible interprets itself Ron, it cannot contradict other passages.

I apologize for not addressing this further previously, as you stated before as now that was referring to Yahweh, or in English Jehovah. Because of the first and last being applied to Him, you compared it to Jesus being called that as well. I understand, but like I said, it has to harmonize with the rest of the Bible, if it doesn't our understanding is what is in error, not the Bible sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Robert,

Wow, this is moving fast! I wanted to comment before but am just getting back to it.

I am not sure I understand all of the JW beliefs or doctrine...but then again, there are many denominations of this who consider themselves to be Christian that are in error. That is not the criteria.

There is rather a narrow ribbon of faith that has always been that one either believes or does not. Where the way gets wide, is where men elaborate rather than God. I am not sure that the JW fall into that category. There would be a tipping point where the true gospel or Jesus becomes false. Be careful with that.

As for the idea that Jesus is not God...as I have heard is one distinction perhaps denied by the JW, I find no fault of doctrine to say that--but to a point. Having been born and becoming fully man, He would not qualify to be fully man (the Son of Man), if He were God--at least for a time. After which He must be referred to as God, for the gospels declare it, in that He is One with the Father, and was and now is again of the same glory. I would point out that the time of His becoming One with the Father was that time when the "Spirit of God descended like a dove and alight upon Him." From that point on it is He who walked among us even as both man and God, having "his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land", by that manner of speaking.

Stay close.

Like you said Scott, God's spirit descended upon Him, God was in heaven, Jesus was on earth. Jesus explained the one, correct? (John 17:22, 23) . . .I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me.

You see sir, that unity is the oneness of the faith, not the same being. The disciples being in union with Jesus, does not make them God any more than it does Jesus being in union with his God. God spoke from heaven one more time during Jesus' time on earth as well, showing it was not Him coming down, rather He anointed Jesus with holy spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

RN: Your response (#473 above) says a lot about how well you research.

There is a personal pronoun for "his" and it is recorded in the most basic OT Hebrew primers:

3. Possessive

• שלו
  Shelo
  “His” / “Its” - A Comprehensive Guide to Hebrew Pronouns (hebrewpod101.com

The 'subject' of a personal pronoun can be any preceding noun (antecedent). A compound sentence has nothing to do with it.

Capitalization in trinitarian Bible translations show that its trinitarian translators believe that the capitalized pronoun refers to God not to anyone else. The absence of the capital letter in these Bibles indicates someone other than God.

Well I used Blue letter and bible Hub Hebrew OT's. They do not appear and both use the most widely accepted Masoretic text. If you have another that shows the 3rd person personal pronoun, please post it.

But as I said, even if the pronoun did appear, it doesn't alter the fact that because "and" does appear, it makes it a compound sentence with 2 people in focuus.

But the word in Hebrew for "and His Redeemer"
וְגֹאֲל֖וֹ
wə-ḡō-’ă-lōw

and that has no 3rd person personal pronoun. It is added in English for proper grammar translation.

The 'subject' of a personal pronoun can be any preceding noun (antecedent). A compound sentence has nothing to do with it.

Capitalization in trinitarian Bible translations show that its trinitarian translators believe that the capitalized pronoun refers to God not to anyone else. The absence of the capital letter in these Bibles indicates someone other than God.

Capitalization is arbitrary.

But you are wrong about personal pronouns. They go back to the nearest antecedant that matches are case, number, and gender. BUT because the pronoun modofes and precedes a proper noun, and because there is a proper noun succeeding the pronoun, it refers to the person which appears afterwards. So it refers to a second Yahweh, called Yahweh of Hosts! That is Hebrew grammar as well as English grammar.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The worst part of christmas = santa, unscrambled = satan, he steals 98% of the christmas holiday away from Jesus. Dec 25th am its all about santa first. From the day after thanksgiving up until that point all about santa.
The trees dont have to be sacrificed to demons. the fact that those parts( practices) originated in satans religions is what matters.

And as I said, followers of Jesus who celebrate Christmas with a priority oin the commercialism of it all, are wrong! NOthing wrong with presents and celebration, if they are in their proper order.

I never taught my kids about Santa. We always had a birthday cake for Jesus and had a "Happy Birthday Jesus " sign. I always let my kids decorate the tree, and I tolsd them stories how each kind of decoration, as well as the tree siginified something believers should be or do!

God is not going to judge you ro I for what teh world does with something, but what we do with something!

Once again :

Romans 14
King James Version

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

1 Corinthians 8
King James Version

8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

1 Corinthians 10:25-27
King James Version

25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.


If your conscinece forbids you to have a christmas celebration, don't do it! But if a follower of Jesus gives God thanks and celebrates it as remembering teat the Father sent the Son to become a man and redeem us- they are free to do that as well as you are free to not do it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Bible is complete Ron, Christians did not celebrate christmas, and they set the example. You fail to see that there is religious overtones in almost everything sir. Practicing the traditions offered to pagan gods is certainly not pleasing to Jehovah, correct?

So when Jesus offered bread and wine- which was a pagan tradition long ago- He was wrong?

Early christians never flew in planes or drove cars, so those are wrong as well according to your logic. But show me where one is forbidden to celebrate teh birth of jesus on a certain day! Show me where one cannot use symbols to celebrate.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Thank you Ron, We agree that is Yahweh/Jehovah, but that title is applying to Him sir not to Jesus. You believe the title first and last is applied to Jesus exclusively, but it is not.
(Isaiah 41:4) . . .Who has acted and done this, Summoning the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the First One; And with the last ones I am the same.”

Once again you lie about my words. I do not believe first and last applies to Jesus alone- it applies to both teh Father and teh Son!

Just like the name Yahweh applies to both the Father and the Son as SCripture shows.

Jesus is also called Yahweh in James 5! for Jesus is the Lord of Sabaoth which in Hebrew is Yahweh of hosts

Even watchtower false doctrine which says Jesus is Michael the archangel calls him the head of the hosts of heaven.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.470

• 1John 2:26-27 . .These things I write you about those who are trying to
mislead you. And as for you, the anointing that you received from him
remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but, as the
anointing from him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie,
and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.

The anointing provides people with some valuable advantages to which
people who lack it of course have no access.

1» Protects people from deception

2» Enables people to comprehend Jesus Christ's teachings the way he wants
them comprehended.

3» Makes it possible for people to remain in union with him.

According to Watchtower Society theology, only 144,000 special Jehovah's
Witnesses have the anointing. There aren't that many living Witnesses who
have the anointing though because when anointed Witnesses die, their
passing doesn't create vacancies; viz: 144,000 is the maximum unless an
anointed JW either apostatizes or is ousted via the process of disfellowship.

What that means is: the vast majority of today's living JWs don't have the
anointing. We're talking about some serious numbers here.

Currently, there are approximately 20+ million adherents following the
Watchtower's Society's version of Christianity. Even if all 144,000 anointed
Witnesses were alive today, that would leave approximately 19.86 million
JWs roaming the earth in our day who 1) have no protection from deception,
2) are unable to grasp Jesus Christ's teachings the way he wants them
grasped, and 3) not in union with him.

I'd imagine that quite a few ordinary Witnesses sincerely believe that their
association with the Watchtower Society keeps them in union with Jesus
Christ; but according to 1John 2:26-27, union with Jesus Christ isn't
accomplished on the coattails of an organization; it's accomplished by means
of the anointing.

Ironically, every non anointed JW coming to our doors preaching the
kingdom of God are themselves "those who are trying to mislead you."
_

 

[ScottA]

Like you said Scott, God's spirit descended upon Him, God was in heaven, Jesus was on earth. Jesus explained the one, correct? (John 17:22, 23) . . .I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me.

You see sir, that unity is the oneness of the faith, not the same being. The disciples being in union with Jesus, does not make them God any more than it does Jesus being in union with his God. God spoke from heaven one more time during Jesus' time on earth as well, showing it was not Him coming down, rather He anointed Jesus with holy spirit.

The mystery or confusion and the error lies in the reality that what is born of God is indeed God, for He gave of Himself and then returned to Him. Even so, this same Jesus, unlike ourselves, was of the same glory and One even before the world was.

 

[Wrangler]

Even so, this same Jesus, unlike ourselves, was of the same glory and One even before the world was.

But not before Creation was. This is why Jesus is said to be the firstborn of Creation. Firstborn implies a series of like to follow.

 

[ScottA]

And as I said, followers of Jesus who celebrate Christmas with a priority oin the commercialism of it all, are wrong! NOthing wrong with presents and celebration, if they are in their proper order.

I never taught my kids about Santa. We always had a birthday cake for Jesus and had a "Happy Birthday Jesus " sign. I always let my kids decorate the tree, and I tolsd them stories how each kind of decoration, as well as the tree siginified something believers should be or do!

God is not going to judge you ro I for what teh world does with something, but what we do with something!

Once again :

Romans 14
King James Version

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

1 Corinthians 8
King James Version

8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

1 Corinthians 10:25-27
King James Version

25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.


If your conscinece forbids you to have a christmas celebration, don't do it! But if a follower of Jesus gives God thanks and celebrates it as remembering teat the Father sent the Son to become a man and redeem us- they are free to do that as well as you are free to not do it.

To the credit of the early church fathers, even the pagans now celebrate Christ. Even without knowing they call it Christ-mas, meaning Christ-sent.

 

[ScottA]

But not before Creation was. This is why Jesus is said to be the firstborn of Creation. Firstborn implies a series of like to follow.

Good point. Yes, there is more to it, many details. But the main point is that having been God before and also again, He is God, and now brings many sons also.

 

[Wrangler]

Good point. Yes, there is more to it, many details. But the main point is that having been God before and also again, He is God, and now brings many sons also.

Despite the Bible saying over and over and over again that there is only one God, YWHW, the Oneness doctrine persists to subordinate the actual Word of YHWH.