What Are we Getting Saved From?

[Aunty Jane]

I didn't sat that JWs altered the Bible.
That is a strawman fallacy.
But I would be inclined to believe those who say they did over your word.

Why? Do you really know anything about where your own beliefs originated?

JW is false and not part of the Christian faith. If you're not JW why do you defendnd it?

Well, the strawmen are getting quite a workout today.

Can I ask you how you know that what you have been taught to believe is true?

Who told you what to believe? And why do you believe them?

Have you ever investigated where your own “Christian” beliefs originated? I can guarantee that most of what you have been indoctrinated with has nothing to do with anything Jesus taught.

You might like to read Jesus parable of the “wheat and the weeds” (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42) to see what he foretold about the things that would corrupt Christianity in the days after the death of the apostles. The devil was to sow a counterfeit form of “Christianity” in the world to mislead the masses away from God. Are you a victim whilst pointing your finger at JW’s for exposing the lies that people think is the truth? Please do some research yourself about the origins of the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire.......NONE of these were taught by Jesus.

 

[teamventure]

Why? Do you really know anything about where your own beliefs originated?


Well, the strawmen are getting quite a workout today.

Can I ask you how you know that what you have been taught to believe is true?

Who told you what to believe? And why do you believe them?

Have you ever investigated where your own “Christian” beliefs originated? I can guarantee that most of what you have been indoctrinated with has nothing to do with anything Jesus taught.

You might like to read Jesus parable of the “wheat and the weeds” (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42) to see what he foretold about the things that would corrupt Christianity in the days after the death of the apostles. The devil was to sow a counterfeit form of “Christianity” in the world to mislead the masses away from God. Are you a victim whilst pointing your finger at JW’s for exposing the lies that people think is the truth? Please do some research yourself about the origins of the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire.......NONE of these were taught by Jesus.

You don't even have the courage to admit what religion you are, and you want my christian apologetics that you have already denied in this thread.
Jesus is God and hell is real.
End of story.
Without faith it's impossible to please God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You don't even have the courage to admit what religion you are, and you want my christian apologetics that you have already denied in this thread.
Jesus is God and hell is real.
End of story.
Without faith it's impossible to please God.

Our faith cannot be blind......yours apparently is. You read scripture the way you were taught....so who taught you? Do you even know where your own beliefs come from?

You think God looks at labels? It really does matter what we believe and who taught us.....so be honest....who taught you?

I was raised with your beliefs, completely oblivious to their origins, but it doesn’t take much research to understand that the “weeds” have done a great con job on the “many”......and we can believe Jesus who told us that “few” are on the road to life. Are you part of the “many” or part of the “few”?

 

[teamventure]

Our faith cannot be blind......yours apparently is. You read scripture the way you were taught....so who taught you? Do you even know where your own beliefs come from?

You think God looks at labels? It really does matter what we believe and who taught us.....so be honest....who taught you?

I was raised with your beliefs, completely oblivious to their origins, but it doesn’t take much research to understand that the “weeds” have done a great con job on the “many”......and we can believe Jesus who told us that “few” are on the road to life. Are you part of the “many” or part of the “few”?

About which of us are part of the many or part of the few; I guess we will see when it all pans out in the end. Only God has the last and only say.

 

[keithr]

Please confess that Jesus is God and Hell fire is everlasting. Then some of us might believe you're not JW.

Perhaps you don't know that there are Christian denominations, apart from Jehovah's Witnesses (who are Christians), that don't believe in the Trinity or that hell is a place of eternal torture for humans.

If you study "hell fire" in the Bible you will discover that "hell fire" or "fire of hell" is always referring to Gehenna, not hades or sheol, i.e. it is not hell (and good modern Bible translations, and literal translations, will correctly not translate it as hell). The only time that hell (hades/sheol) and fire are mentioned in one verse is Revelation 20:14, where it says that hell is destroyed by being symbolically thrown into the "lake of fire" (as is death - "Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire", Revelation 20:14), after all of the dead in hell (hades) had been resurrected (Revelation 20:13 - "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works" - so there are dead in the sea, dead in hades/hell and dead "in death"). Those not judged worthy of eternal life are also symbolically thrown into the lake of fire, which is declared to be the second death (Revelation 20:14-15 - "This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."), so there is no need for the symbolic lake of fire to be eternal because there will not be any living humans in it!

When it talks of the "eternal fire" of Gehenna, that is because fires were kept burning there 24 hours a day, for many years - but they're not burning now! It's a figure of speech. Similarly, Jude 1:7 says (WEB):

(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.​

The fire is talked of as being eternal, meaning that the punishment by fire (death) is eternal. The actual fire ceased thousands of years ago!

 

[Jack]

I am grateful to @Aunty Jane about many things in her posting on these boards.

You're grateful that she's constantly attacking our Christian Bible?

 

[Jack]

Perhaps you don't know that there are Christian denominations, apart from Jehovah's Witnesses (who are Christians), that don't believe in the Trinity or that hell is a place of eternal torture for humans.

If you study "hell fire" in the Bible you will discover that "hell fire" or "fire of hell" is always referring to Gehenna, not hades or sheol, i.e. it is not hell (and good modern Bible translations, and literal translations, will correctly not translate it as hell). The only time that hell (hades/sheol) and fire are mentioned in one verse is Revelation 20:14, where it says that hell is destroyed by being symbolically thrown into the "lake of fire" (as is death - "Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire", Revelation 20:14), after all of the dead in hell (hades) had been resurrected (Revelation 20:13 - "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works" - so there are dead in the sea, dead in hades/hell and dead "in death"). Those not judged worthy of eternal life are also symbolically thrown into the lake of fire, which is declared to be the second death (Revelation 20:14-15 - "This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."), so there is no need for the symbolic lake of fire to be eternal because there will not be any living humans in it!

When it talks of the "eternal fire" of Gehenna, that is because fires were kept burning there 24 hours a day, for many years - but they're not burning now! It's a figure of speech. Similarly, Jude 1:7 says (WEB):

(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.​

The fire is talked of as being eternal, meaning that the punishment by fire (death) is eternal. The actual fire ceased thousands of years ago!

If you're not JW why are you doing the JW twist?

 

[keithr]

If you're not JW why are you doing the JW twist?

The truth is the truth, no matter who does and doesn't believes it. As Christians we should love the truth, and seek to know the truth of God's word.

Jesus prayed, John 17:17 (WEB):

(17) Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth.​

and Jesus said, John 4:24 (WEB):

(24) God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”​

Zechariah 8:19 (WEB):

(19) Yahweh of Armies says: “... Therefore love truth and peace.”​

Ephesians 4:14-15 (WEB):

(14) that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
(15) but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ;​

1 Peter 1:22 (WEB):

(22) Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently:​

We can't be obedient to the truth if we don't correctly understand the truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 (ISV):

(15) Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.​

 

[Jack]

The truth is the truth, no matter who does and doesn't believes it. As Christians we should love the truth, and seek to know the truth of God's word.

Jesus prayed, John 17:17 (WEB):

(17) Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth.​

and Jesus said, John 4:24 (WEB):

(24) God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”​

Zechariah 8:19 (WEB):

(19) Yahweh of Armies says: “... Therefore love truth and peace.”​

Ephesians 4:14-15 (WEB):

(14) that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
(15) but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ;​

1 Peter 1:22 (WEB):

(22) Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently:​

We can't be obedient to the truth if we don't correctly understand the truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 (ISV):

(15) Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.​

And the Truth is, Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell. Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no eternal Hell fire!
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[keithr]

And the Truth is, Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

That's not what it says in Revelation 20:

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

All those in hell (hades) are given up - they come out of hell, so that hell is empty - they were dead but they are made alive again. The empty hell is then thrown into fire (symbolising that it is destroyed). Of those that have come out of hell, some will be granted eternal life and the rest will perish (thrown into the fire - a second death) - they don't go back to a (now non-existant) hell.

 

[Jack]

That's not what it says in Revelation 20:

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

All those in hell (hades) are given up - they come out of hell, so that hell is empty - they were dead but they are made alive again. The empty hell is then thrown into fire (symbolising that it is destroyed). Of those that have come out of hell, some will be granted eternal life and the rest will perish (thrown into the fire - a second death) - they don't go back to a (now non-existant) hell.

Symbolizing? How JW indeed! You totally ignore Jesus.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Symbolizing? How JW indeed! You totally ignore Jesus.

@keithr...well, someone is totally ignoring everything Jesus said, especially in the Revelation because he was the one who received it from his Father to present it to John “in signs” or symbols....very little in the Revelation is literal.....so the “torment” is as symbolic as “hades” and “the lake of fire” are. But it’s all falling on deaf and bigoted ears , so why waste time replying to someone who is not listening? “Ignore” is a good feature on these boards.

 

[Jack]

@keithr...well, someone is totally ignoring everything Jesus said, especially in the Revelation because he was the one who received it from his Father to present it to John “in signs” or symbols....very little in the Revelation is literal.....so the “torment” is as symbolic as “hades” and “the lake of fire” are. But it’s all falling on deaf and bigoted ears , so why waste time replying to someone who is not listening? “Ignore” is a good feature on these boards.

Yep, that would be you. You should have read the Bible instead of getting brainwashed at Kingdom Hall. Do you even know Who said this?
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Wrangler]

You're grateful that she's constantly attacking our Christian Bible?

I am VERY grateful she consistently points out error from trinitarian biased translators, yes.

 

[Jack]

I am VERY grateful she consistently points out error from trinitarian biased translators, yes.

My Savior Jesus is God of the Bible, the Creator, the same Savior Who Peter and Thomas has. She has a different savior. I hope you don't have the same savior as she does.

 

[keithr]

Symbolizing? How JW indeed! You totally ignore Jesus.

Why can't you stop implying that I am a JW. I AM NOT A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

When you throw something into a fire it is usually destroyed (that's why things are usually thrown into fire - to destroy them).

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You criticise my post for interpreting the text of Revelation 20 as symbolic, but all true Christians will recognise the book of Revelation as being one of, if not the most, symbolic books of the Bible. The very first verse even states that the revelation is "signified", i.e. symbolic. So consider the symbol of fire and brimstone (sulphur). Fire destroys, and sulphur is one of the most deadly elements known, which is destructive to all forms of life. Fire and brimstone is therefore indicative of death and destruction.

Consider the beast mentioned in verse 10. What is it? Revelation 17 explains it.

(8) The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.​

Note that it says that the beast is about to be destroyed - not tortured for eternity.

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.
(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.
(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.
(13) These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
(14) These will war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and those who are with him are called chosen and faithful.”
(15) He said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.
(16) The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute, will make her desolate, will strip her naked, will eat her flesh, and will burn her utterly with fire.
(17) For God has put in their hearts to do what he has in mind, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.
(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”​

So the beast is symbolic of kingdoms, systems or institutions, spread over a period of time - it's not a literal living animal with seven heads and ten horns. It cannot be physically tortured in fire and sulphur. It is symbolic, just as the lake of fire and brimstone is symbolic (of destruction).

So what of the phrase "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"? We know from chapter 17 and other verses of Scripture that tell of the destruction of Satan (Hebrews 2:14, Ezekiel 28:18-19) that Satan and the beast will be destroyed, so is 'tormented' a valid translation? The Greek word translated as tormented is βασανίζω (basanizo). The Online Bible Greek Lexicon states the first two meanings of it is:

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture​

Wiktionary (βάσανος - Wiktionary) states that the word comes from an Egyptian word meaning "a hard stone", and that it means:

1. gold touchstone (stone which is rubbed on gold to ascertain its authenticity by leaving a yellow streak)
2. (figuratively)

1. test, trial (whether a thing is genuine or real)
2. inquire by torture​

Therefore it could be translated as "they will be a touchstone day and night forever and ever", meaning that throughout eternity we can look back at and examine the acts of Satan and the man made kingdoms, institutions, false religions, apostate Church, etc. and see that they were evil and sinful, and do not result in joy and happiness - they'll be a lesson for us for all eternity. (The dictionary definition of touchstone is "a test or criterion for the qualities of a thing".)

Have I "twisted about" that sufficiently for you? ;)

 

[Wrangler]

My Savior Jesus is God of the Bible, the Creator, the same Savior Who Peter and Thomas has. She has a different savior. I hope you don't have the same savior as she does.

Since Jesus is not God, I guess we do have different saviors from an ignorant perspective, not a metaphysical perspective.

The Bible identifies Jesus as the son of god, anointed by god and raised from the dead by God. The juxtapositions of God apart from Jesus is the strongest evidence that Jesus is not God.

Peter and Thomas were both monotheist Jews and you have to take what they said in that context.

Every Epistle explicitly identifies only the Father as God. So, the apostles were not trinitarians, walking around claiming Jesus was God.

 

[Wrangler]

Why can't you stop implying that I am a JW.

I think the answer is to reinforce their Appeal to Majority fallacy of argumentation.

They want only 1 small minority unorthodox Christian sect. An inconvenient truth that heterodoxy is growing in rejection of inherently contradictory dogma.

 

[Jack]

Why can't you stop implying that I am a JW. I AM NOT A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS.

What is different between you and JW's?

When you throw something into a fire it is usually destroyed (that's why things are usually thrown into fire - to destroy them).

You don't believe in "eternal life"? It's the same Greek word as "eternal punishment", NEVER ending.

You criticise my post for interpreting the text of Revelation 20 as symbolic, but all true Christians will recognise the book of Revelation as being one of, if not the most, symbolic books of the Bible. The very first verse even states that the revelation is "signified", i.e. symbolic. So consider the symbol of fire and brimstone (sulphur). Fire destroys, and sulphur is one of the most deadly elements known, which is destructive to all forms of life. Fire and brimstone is therefore indicative of death and destruction.

Consider the beast mentioned in verse 10. What is it? Revelation 17 explains it.

(8) The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.​

Note that it says that the beast is about to be destroyed - not tortured for eternity.

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.
(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.
(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.
(13) These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
(14) These will war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and those who are with him are called chosen and faithful.”
(15) He said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.
(16) The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute, will make her desolate, will strip her naked, will eat her flesh, and will burn her utterly with fire.
(17) For God has put in their hearts to do what he has in mind, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.
(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”​

So the beast is symbolic of kingdoms, systems or institutions, spread over a period of time - it's not a literal living animal with seven heads and ten horns. It cannot be physically tortured in fire and sulphur. It is symbolic, just as the lake of fire and brimstone is symbolic (of destruction).

So what of the phrase "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"? We know from chapter 17 and other verses of Scripture that tell of the destruction of Satan (Hebrews 2:14, Ezekiel 28:18-19) that Satan and the beast will be destroyed, so is 'tormented' a valid translation? The Greek word translated as torment is βασανίζω (basanizo). The Online Bible Greek Lexicon states the first two meanings of it is:

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture​

Wiktionary (βάσανος - Wiktionary) states that the word come from an Egyptian word meaning "a hard stone", and that it means:

1. gold touchstone (stone which is rubbed on gold to ascertain its authenticity by leaving a yellow streak)
2. (figuratively)

1. test, trial (whether a thing is genuine or real)
2. inquire by torture​

Therefore it could be translated as "they will be a touchstone day and night forever and ever", meaning that throughout eternity we can look back at and examine the acts of Satan and the man made kingdoms, institutions, false religions, apostate Church, etc. and see that they were evil and sinful, and do not result in joy and happiness - they'll be a lesson for us for all eternity. (The dictionary definition of touchstone is "a test or criterion for the qualities of a thing".)

Have I "twisted about" that sufficiently for you? ;)

Are you a Greek expert? I don't think so. Even the JW bible says "forever and ever".

 

[Jack]

Since Jesus is not God, I guess we do have different saviors from an ignorant perspective, not a metaphysical perspective.

The Bible identifies Jesus as the son of god, anointed by god and raised from the dead by God. The juxtapositions of God apart from Jesus is the strongest evidence that Jesus is not God.

Peter and Thomas were both monotheist Jews and you have to take what they said in that context.

Every Epistle explicitly identifies only the Father as God. So, the apostles were not trinitarians, walking around claiming Jesus was God.

No Scripture? Peter and Thomas said Jesus is God. Since they knew Him personally I'll believe them.