The answer of hell and its origins

[Earburner]

Well, lets look at the first reference in Luke 17:20 (red text to show context)

17:20 Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, 17:21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

The Pharisee "demanded", which is the meaning of "to ask", which captures the spirit of inquiry! Thankfully your question wasn't given in the same spirit ;)

Context is important!

If Jesus is the Messiah, where is all the evidence of a dramatic Jewish revival? (this view was based on many prophecies the Jews thought would be fulfilled in the Messiahs coming - expected a Lion and they got a lamb!)

Have you looked at the meaning of “Not with observation”?

The translators struggled with interpreting it's meaning:

NET notes:
tn Or “is not coming in a way that it can be closely watched” (L&N 24.48). Although there are differing interpretations of what this means, it probably refers to the cosmic signs often associated with the kingdom’s coming in the Jewish view (1 En. 91, 93; 2 Bar. 53–74). See D. L. Bock, Luke (BECNT), 2:1412–14, also H. Riesenfeld, TDNT 8:150.

My view on this text should be read "not with careful watching”. Only other occurrence is a related word used of their critical watching of him See Mark 3:2, Luke 14:1; Luke 20:20

The kingdom would come, not with their careful watching but will burst upon them expectantly!

Then we have Luke 17:21 to finish Jesus' lesson

“Lo here, lo there” – to mean it (KoG) will not be announced by men, nor will it be just a local phenomena “The kingdom of God” – Grk. signifies “sovereignty” - royal power and majesty.

“Gods royal majesty is among you” “Within you” – Of course it wasn't ‘within’ the Pharisees. It was “in the midst of you” or better translated “among you”!

So the Pharisees forcibly ask of the signs of the Kingdom knowing it would manifest with mighty signs and wonders - this was a way of interrogating the Lord to try and make him slip up as they wanted him to do.

What they didn't realise is God's royal presence (through His Son) as the center of God’s kingdom was already in their midst and they couldn't recognize him. Matthew 12:28

The same will happen when Christ returns a second time but this time orthodox Christianity will take the place of the Pharisee.

I wont go into that now as it's difficult to control this type of knowledge in a forum setting.

As a side note; so few Christians read with context in mind so they misquote a Scripture - very few being shown this are humble enough to say okay I got that wrong and I have much to learn. Most will try to force the Scripture to mean something else.

F2F

Let me simplify it for you.
The Day of Pentecost, and forward right up to today, has been the the true Second coming/manifestation of the Lord.

 

[face2face]

Let me simplify it for you.
The Day of Pentecost, and forward right up to today, has been the the true Second coming/manifestation of the Lord.

Na Christ is not in the midst literally - until he come!
He is not sitting on his Father (David) throne Luke 1:32
He is not King of the Jews...yet!
He is not King of the earth...yet!
Marriage of the Lamb and Marriage Supper of the Lamb not yet taken place.
March of the rainbowed angel not yet taken place.
And so much more!
F2F

 

[face2face]

Let me simplify it for you.
The Day of Pentecost, and forward right up to today, has been the the true Second coming/manifestation of the Lord.

You know what it means by totally ignoring my reply right?

 

[Earburner]

A tip for your Bible reading and study - have a look at imagery which is exaggerated. Exaggeration is a common technique in the Scripture to communicate the severity of something. When you read of total destruction it's not a literal event but rather showing the reader its going to be a time of great judgement. If you want examples let me know.

Well, I for one don't think that Jesus was exagerating things by what he said in Luke 17[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the in the SAME day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
It will be a simultaneous event.

 

[face2face]

Let me simplify it for you.
The Day of Pentecost, and forward right up to today, has been the the true Second coming/manifestation of the Lord.

What's also weird is you used Luke 17 to prove your belief above which ended up having nothing to do with your point.
I find this type of Bible discussion really hard as you keep moving the goal posts until eventually one of us lose interest.
What does Luke 17have to do with Pentecost?
What does Luke 17 have to do with your idea of Pentecost being Christs second coming?

It looks like you thought it meant something it doesn't.

F2F

 

[Prim]

I agree with your understanding 99.9%.
However, what is not understood by most is, the two witnesses were sent by God to the Jews First, and have been witnessing by their recorded words, ever since Pentecost, for all of the time of God's Age of Grace continues. The two witnesses have been John the Baptist and Jesus, which was a joint ministry.
The ministry of John lasted 6 months.
The ministry of Jesus lasted for 3 years. Both combined equals 3.5 years, aka 1260 days.
Rev.11[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses [two anointed- Zech. 4:11-14], and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The two witnesses are not Moses and Elijah or anyone else. Therefore, the prophecy of Malachi 4:5 was fulfilled. Listen closely, as to how Jesus explained it in
Matt.11:11-15
[11] Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not RISEN a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
(The "least" of all of God's servants unto His will, is Jesus Himself).

To this day the church is still foolishly looking for two witnesses to come, pointing to the Transfiguration as being something for evidence, when in reality, Jesus told them beforehand what they would see:
John.1[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Thank you for your confirmation of His Truth. I hope that what I have said helps.
Earburner

Earburner a most interesting interpretation. There certainly be no shortage of beliefs when it comes to who the two witnesses be. Ranging from Elijah, Moses, Enoch or to a priestly class because of the presence of the temple. Some have even interpreted the Old and New Testaments as being the two witnesses. The historical view has always had many valid points but so has also the futurist viewpoint. More so with the Jewish ones 2000 year obsession and self determination to bring about the re birth of their temple. ItchingEars what publications do you recommend of Jesus and John the Baptist being the two witnesses.

 

[face2face]

Well, I for one don't think that Jesus was exagerating things by what he said in Luke 17[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the in the SAME day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
It will be a simultaneous event.

Ah I see your mistake here.
Jesus is stressing the interventionist nature of his return. With respect to the flood and the destruction of Sodom life seemed to be going on quite normally until the catastrophic intervention of Yahweh. The same will be true at the time that Jesus returns.
Can you see how he is using that event?
He is not saying all mankind will be destroyed and the entire earth burned!
F2F

 

[Earburner]

You know what it means by totally ignoring my reply right?

I'm definitely not ignoring you. I am redirecting you to the truth of how "the KoG cometh not with observation", and now I am listing the scriptures that you did not reference in your previous post, that support it.

John.14[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will COME to you.
John.14[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and [I] will MANIFEST myself to him.

 

[face2face]

I'm definitely not ignoring you. I am redirecting you to the truth of how "the KoG cometh not with observation", and now I am listing the scriptures that you did not reference in your previous post, that support it.

John.14[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will COME to you.
John.14[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and [I] will MANIFEST myself to him.

Do you know how the comforter came to all those saints over the past 2000 years?

 

[Grailhunter]

@face2face @RLT63 @Bob Estey @n2thelight @DavidB @Dropship

Satan as the devil is truth….Hell as an eternal place of punishment is truth…. The Son of God being both God and Messiah is truth.
But as Paul Harvey would say….Stay tuned for the rest of the story.

Hell is not an Old Testament teaching, the Jews did not believe in a Hell and still don’t today….because….it was not an Old Testament teaching. LOL No one in the Old Testament was threatened with Hell or warned about Hell. Shoal was the destination for everyone that died. (Exceptions Enoch and Elijah) Biblical descriptions of Shoal varies. Now if Shoal is a possible destination of souls for some today….is a debate.

Heaven as a reward or an abode for human souls was not an Old Testament teaching. Humans were not offered Heaven as a reward or Hell as a punishment in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament Heaven was the abode of God and Angels.

Satan was never identified as a devil or demon in the Old Testament and therefore the Jews did not believe in a devil and do not believe in a devil today. For that reason no one was warned about the devil in the Old Testament.

There is a point in time, and the reasons are debatable why Christianity went and Christianized the Old Testament. A good example of this is the name Lucifer. Lucifer is Latin and was introduced with the Vulgate Latin translation. The word is not in the scriptures at all! It was inserted into the scriptures and has nothing to do with the storyline there. Lucifer is the Latin name of Venus the goddess or Venus the planet, which is the morning star.
There are other words that were inserted in the translations like Hell…. inserted 32 times….and many times they reworded the verses to accommodate it. The word Hell is neither Hebrew, Greek, or Latin, it originates in the German around 725 AD. Then at times they would change the names of various things, like replacing the word Jackal with dragon and serpent is used liberally.

The Old Testament does not teach of a God Messiah and of course the Jews did not believe in a God Messiah. If they did nearly every page of the prophetic books of the Old Testament would have celebrated it…dancing in the streets….shouting it from the mountain tops.

The Old Testament tells of a Human warlord king Messiah taking on the human enemies of the Jews, not the devil. Which is one of the reasons that the Jews were looking at Jewish military leaders as the Messiah during the Maccabean revolts.

Yahweh does not function in the Old Testament as a trio. A God named Yeshua or a God named Holy Spirit is not in the Old Testament, the Israelites / Jews were monotheists, belief in one God. God’s name was taken out of the Old Testament, times 6,000 times. God as a name causes people to look at it and think, Its God all three persons!…but that is false.

The Old Testament does not say that the Messiah would be the begotten Son of God…capital S and that He would be born of a women betrothed to another. Adultery in accordance with the Mosaic Law.

The Old Testament does not teach of a peace loving Messiah. They were looking for a human warlord king that would defeat their oppressors and put the Jews in power and make the world obey the Mosaic Law. The Old Testament teaches this kingdom would last forever….

The sacrificial death of the human Messiah to forgive our sins is not a topic in the Old Testament. And the Jews did not believe that the Messiah would die shortly after starting the messianic age.

The Jews were not looking for the Messiah to make adjustments to the Mosaic Law.

The Jews were not looking for the Jewish religious leaders to be at odds with the Messiah. They spent 700 years looking forward to Him.

The Jews did not believe they would reject the Messiah.

And lastly and most importantly for 700 years the Jews hoped and prayed for the Messiah to come, there only hope….the last thing they would believe is that they would be responsible for killing the Messiah…Crucify Him! Crucify Him! His blood be on us, and on our children!

The Jews were looking for a human warlord king Messiah and a God Messiah that would resurrect was not part of the story.

But then things changed…..and the scriptures do not tell us what changed. Why would a human Messiah no longer fit the bill? Why would He have to serve as a sacrifice?

When did Satan and God become enemies?

When and how did Satan become the devil?

When was Hell created?

When did Heaven open up as a reward to humans? And why?

Why did the Apostles believe that they were living in the last days, that Christ’s return would be soon?

Why doesn’t the Bible tell us more about Heaven and what it will be like, and what we will be doing in Heaven?

Now Christians do not like change, but the Bible is full of change. As far as Hell, it might be eternal fire….I am of the opinion that it was the worst thing that people could imagine, but I think it is much worse.

So then in the New Testament you have the only begotten Son of God as the Messiah….a full fledged God from birth. You have Satan as the devil and you have a horrible and eternal place of punishment and Heaven as the reward for those that believe in Yeshua.

Now some Jews during Christ’s ministry knew of the devil and Hell and Angels and the resurrection, but that is a longer story….

It is a bit complicated, because we are looking at a antient texts from a different time period that spans language translations. All things being honest it would still be complicated but when you add to it all the fingers that have been in the pie, it adds to the complication. And because it is complicated it is not hard to twist by those of deceitful characters.

The neat thing about truth if someone is interested in the truth, all they have do is look it up. But thank the guy that put you on that path.

The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

 

[Earburner]

Ah I see your mistake here.
Jesus is stressing the interventionist nature of his return. With respect to the flood and the destruction of Sodom life seemed to be going on quite normally until the catastrophic intervention of Yahweh. The same will be true at the time that Jesus returns.
Can you see how he is using that event?
He is not saying all mankind will be destroyed and the entire earth burned!
F2F

Any person, and all persons who do not have the Spirit of Christ on the Day that He is revealed from Heaven, are declared to be "none of His", and therefore are a "worker of iniquity". Romans 8:8-9, Luke 13:27

 

[Earburner]

Do you know how the comforter came to all those saints over the past 2000 years?

Revelation 3:20

 

[face2face]

Any person, and all persons who do not have the Spirit of Christ on the Day that He is revealed from Heaven, are declared to be "none of His", and therefore are a "worker of iniquity". Romans 8:9, Luke 13:27

True...but your idea of the Spirit of Christ and mine may differ.

 

[face2face]

@face2face @RLT63 @Bob Estey @n2thelight @DavidB @Dropship

Satan as the devil is truth….Hell as an eternal place of punishment is truth…. The Son of God being both God and Messiah is truth.
But as Paul Harvey would say….Stay tuned for the rest of the story.

Hell is not an Old Testament teaching, the Jews did not believe in a Hell and still don’t today….because….it was not an Old Testament teaching. LOL No one in the Old Testament was threatened with Hell or warned about Hell. Shoal was the destination for everyone that died. (Exceptions Enoch and Elijah) Biblical descriptions of Shoal varies. Now if Shoal is a possible destination of souls for some today….is a debate.

Heaven as a reward or an abode for human souls was not an Old Testament teaching. Humans were not offered Heaven as a reward or Hell as a punishment in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament Heaven was the abode of God and Angels.

Satan was never identified as a devil or demon in the Old Testament and therefore the Jews did not believe in a devil and do not believe in a devil today. For that reason no one was warned about the devil in the Old Testament.

There is a point in time, and the reasons are debatable why Christianity went and Christianized the Old Testament. A good example of this is the name Lucifer. Lucifer is Latin and was introduced with the Vulgate Latin translation. The word is not in the scriptures at all! It was inserted into the scriptures and has nothing to do with the storyline there. Lucifer is the Latin name of Venus the goddess or Venus the planet, which is the morning star.
There are other words that were inserted in the translations like Hell…. inserted 32 times….and many times they reworded the verses to accommodate it. The word Hell is neither Hebrew, Greek, or Latin, it originates in the German around 725 AD. Then at times they would change the names of various things, like replacing the word Jackal with dragon and serpent is used liberally.

The Old Testament does not teach of a God Messiah and of course the Jews did not believe in a God Messiah. If they did nearly every page of the prophetic books of the Old Testament would have celebrated it…dancing in the streets….shouting it from the mountain tops.

The Old Testament tells of a Human warlord king Messiah taking on the human enemies of the Jews, not the devil. Which is one of the reasons that the Jews were looking at Jewish military leaders as the Messiah during the Maccabean revolts.

Yahweh does not function in the Old Testament as a trio. A God named Yeshua or a God named Holy Spirit is not in the Old Testament, the Israelites / Jews were monotheists, belief in one God. God’s name was taken out of the Old Testament, times 6,000 times. God as name causes people to look at it and think, Its God all three persons!…but that is false.

The Old Testament does not say that the Messiah would be the begotten Son of God…capital S and that He would be born of a women betrothed to another. Adultery in accordance with the Mosaic Law.

The Old Testament does not teach of a peace loving Messiah. They were looking for a human warlord king that would defeat their oppressors and put the Jews in power and make the world obey the Mosaic Law. The Old Testament teaches this kingdom would last forever….

The sacrificial death of the human Messiah to forgive our sins is not a topic in the Old Testament. And the Jews did not believe that the Messiah would die shortly after starting the messianic age.

The Jews were not looking for the Messiah to make adjustments to the Mosaic Law.

The Jews were not looking for the Jewish religious leaders to be at odds with the Messiah. They spent 700 years looking forward to Him.

The Jews did not believe they would reject the Messiah.

And lastly and most importantly for 700 years the Jews hoped and prayed for the Messiah to come, there only hope….the last thing they would believe is that they would be responsible for killing the Messiah…Crucify Him! Crucify Him! His blood be on us, and on our children!

The Jews were looking for a human warlord king Messiah and a God Messiah that would resurrect was not part of the story.

But then things changed…..and the scriptures do not tell us what changed. Why would a human Messiah no longer fit the bill? Why would He have to serve as a sacrifice?

When did Satan and God become enemies?

When and how did Satan become the devil?

When was Hell created?

When did Heaven open up as a reward to humans? And why?

Why did the Apostles believe that they were living in the last days, that Christ’s return would be soon?

Why doesn’t the Bible tell us more about Heaven and what it will be like, and what we will be doing in Heaven?

Now Christians do not like change, but the Bible is full of change. As far as Hell, it might be eternal fire….I am of the opinion that it was the worst thing that people could imagine, but I think it is much worse.

So then in the New Testament you have the only begotten Son of God as the Messiah….a full fledged God from birth. You have Satan as the devil and you have a horrible and eternal place of punishment and Heaven as the reward for those that believe in Yeshua.

Now some Jews during Christ’s ministry knew of the devil and Hell and Angels and the resurrection, but that is a longer story….

I read through it and tried to find inspired content, a verse, something spiritual to anchor onto but nothing.

(blue text my response)

When did Satan and God become enemies? No such thing all Angels are ministering spirits which behold the Fathers face - no exception! Matthew 18:10

When and how did Satan become the devil? Nonsensical question

When was Hell created? Great question - the first recorded people to enter the grave was Adam and Eve.

When did Heaven open up as a reward to humans? And why? The earth is the reward of the Saints Matthew 5:5

Why did the Apostles believe that they were living in the last days, that Christ’s return would be soon? Every generation is to expect the return of Christ - it's about the urgency to live a godly life in faithful service - and when that persons dies the next waking moment is his return via the resurrection.

Why doesn’t the Bible tell us more about Heaven and what it will be like, and what we will be doing in Heaven? Give me one verse which tells us what Heaven will be like? Just one verse explaining Heaven is the destination of the righteous! Just one...boy this will be interesting!

Enjoy
F2F

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Let me simplify it for you.
The Day of Pentecost, and forward right up to today, has been the the true Second coming/manifestation of the Lord.

False !

 

[face2face]

Revelation 3:20

Okay - let me ask you another way.
How did the comforter come to Jesus in his time of need?

 

[Grailhunter]

When did Satan and God become enemies? No such thing all Angels are ministering spirits which behold the Fathers face - no exception! Matthew 18:10

This is just weird.

When and how did Satan become the devil? Nonsensical question

Valid question.

When was Hell created? Great question - the first recorded people to enter the grave was Adam and Eve.

Hell is not the grave and Hell is not Sheol.

When did Heaven open up as a reward to humans? And why? The earth is the reward of the Saints Matthew 5:5

Not the question.

Why did the Apostles believe that they were living in the last days, that Christ’s return would be soon? Every generation is to expect the return of Christ - it's about the urgency to live a godly life in faithful service - and when that persons dies the next waking moment is his return via the resurrection.

Again not the question.

Why doesn’t the Bible tell us more about Heaven and what it will be like, and what we will be doing in Heaven? Give me one verse which tells us what Heaven will be like? Just one verse explaining Heaven is the destination of the righteous! Just one...boy this will be interesting!

Heaven is the destination of the faithful in Christ. Righteous just get'cha a Christmas card.

And the question still stands...Why doesn’t the Bible tell us more about Heaven and what it will be like, and what we will be doing in Heaven?

 

[face2face]

This is just weird.

Heaven is the destination of the faithful in Christ. Righteous just get'cha a Christmas card.

And the question still stands...Why doesn’t the Bible tell us more about Heaven and what it will be like, and what we will be doing in Heaven?

Question still stands.
Show us anywhere in the Bible that you are going to Heaven let alone what its like for the faithful?
you wont believe how hard this is going to be for you!

 

[face2face]

This is just weird.
Hell is not the grave and Hell is not Sheol.

Provide us an example!
Where is Hell not used as the grave in the OT?

If I make my bed in (Heb:sheol) hell you (God) are there. Psalms 139:8

Context: death ----->sheol----------->hell------------>God is there!

Meaning that even though David goes to the grave and returns to dust God is there and can bring him back!

 

[n2thelight]

Face2face civil discussion is always good when truth is honestly pursued. You quote me saying it started with Eve. You say no it actually started with the rebellion. Face2face I think I did mention the 1st rebellion of the angels. As to Cain and Abel being twins the bible does not specifically say that. But the pairing of Cain and Able is noted and maybe the possibility of them being twins is not out the question and not only for the notoriety of being the world’s first murder. And considering that Adam & Eve had other children yet much more emphasis is placed upon Cain & Able. As to fathering of possible twins by two different fathers. It is known well enough in the medical world as heteropaternal superfecunoation where a ladies eggs are spermed and fertilised by 2 or more men. And with the word beguile used in the seduction of Eves mind by the serpent in the garden the word could also imply sexual seduction as well. And of course the matter of angels being able to procreate with humanity is settled in genesis chapter 6. Though some do teach that genesis 6 was all about the godly line of men desiring after the ungodly line of woman which does beg the question were godly woman so undesirable to look upon ? I think not. The fact that angels are also able to transform themselves into human form is also another interesting factor. Angels are always classified as masculine in the bible and seems that they would be unable to breed amongst themselves for that very reason but seems they can breed with humanity. The long history of Satan attempting to destroy Gods people and the holy line for the future Saviour of the world is a long and intriguing one. Thank you it be far more in-depth than I realised.

The quote that it started with Eve was my own . As for the sons of God in Gen 6 , we have another witness in Job ,keep in my that I feel from scripture, that were all created at the same time .

Job 38:3 "Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me."



This is God's advise to Job. Stand up like a man, for I am going to tell you a few things, and I will demand an answer of you. In these early days men wore long robes, and when they were about to do some serious work and walking, they drew the back side of their robe between and through their legs, and tied it to their belt in front. This is to "gird up now thy loins like a man", for there is going to be some serious discussion and God wanted Job alert.

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

God is asking Job, but directing the question to Elihu as well as Job; where were you when I laid the foundation of this earth age. God is letting Elihu know that nothing that he has said came from Me, so don't put words in My mouth.

Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Who has determined the measurement of the sun, moon, and earth, and placed the line or signs of the constellations around the earth?

Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

God is asking, what holds this earth exactly where it is, do you know Job? do you know Elihu? Stop and think for a moment of all the laws of God, those dealing with gravity, with magnetism, with heat and pressures and all the other things that go to make up the atmosphere of the earth that we live on, and rely on for our life, as we live here in these flesh bodies. This sets our Heavenly Father in a class all by Himself. Man is nothing compared to the Creator.

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. Some how the people of this earth age are trying to forget Satan and the role that he played at the rebellion in that first earth age. We see that Satan was not in the conversation with Job and his friends at this time. They all have overlooked the overall plan of God. However had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing? Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were. You see, we the elect of God were chosen before the foundations of this earth were laid, and so was Job.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world [age], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children of Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

Also here

Job 2:1 "And again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord."

People let verses slip sometimes , mere men didn't just hang out with satan in a meeting with our Father