What Are we Getting Saved From?

[teamventure]

I presume you mean "your children". ;)


Just because I'm willing to discuss it that does not mean that I am "hung up about it".


You obviously don't understand why I quoted those verses. The verses reveal what God thinks about killing people in fire, and show that it is inconceivable that He (who never changes) would therefore even think to keep people alive burning in fire for all eternity. God's perfect justice is a punishment equal to the crime - Exodus 21:23-25 (WEB):

(23) But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,
(24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
(25) burning for burning, wound for wound, and bruise for bruise.​

So again, it is inconceivable that God would chose to punish people with a punishment that is infinitely worse than the crime.

Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

And you ignore the rest of Scripture that teaches that the punishment for sin is death, not eternal torture.


That is obviously incorrect. God has from the beginning said He would punish sin and disobedience - Genesis 2:17 (WEB):

(17) but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”​

Note that God told Adam that the punishment would be death, not an eternal life of torture.

Ezekiel 18:20-21 (WEB):

(20) The soul who sins, he shall die. ...
(21) “But if the wicked turns from all his sins that he has committed, and keeps all my statutes, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live. He shall not die.​

Again - Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

and Revelation 20:14 (WEB):

(14) ... This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

It's nothing to do with my opinion of what God thinks, I'm simply quoting God's word. You don't seem to want to believe it!

You are inserting your own definition of what the word death means in those scriptures. It does not mean to cease to exist
Otherwise these passages would not be in the Bible.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 NIV

“Their worms that eat them will not die, their fire that burns them will not be quenched”
Isaiah 66:24 NIV

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 NIV

You pass off scripture of eternal torment because you don't understand how bad sin is to God by saying a punishment that is worse than the crime. That is not for you to decide you are not God. Like I said, you are on very shaky ground trying to decide what God thinks based on your observations.

 

[quietthinker]

You misunderstand what spiritual death means in scripture. It does not mean to cease to exist but rather to be eternally seperated from God.
Otherwise these passages would not be in the Bible.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 NIV

“Their worms that eat them will not die, their fire that burns them will not be quenched”
Isaiah 66:24 NIV

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 NIV

You pass off scripture of eternal torment because you don't understand how bad sin is to God by saying a punishment that is worse than the crime. That is not for you to decide you are not God. Like I said, you are on very shaky ground trying to decide what God thinks based on your observations.

The problem is we haven't asked the Prophets what they thought of our rocket science and they haven't asked us whether we are up to speed with their cultural idioms!
We assume they had the same mindset as us and are arrogant enough to impose our mindset on them.

Our 'sophisticated' theology is so sacrosanct we feel justified going to war against any who think differently......a war of judgements and ugly words.....all in the name of love.

 

[keithr]

You are inserting your own definition of what the word death means in those scriptures. It does not mean to cease to exist

Death is the lack of life, just as darkness is the lack of light. Here's the Bible's (God's word) definition of death:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.​

Psalms 146:4

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

And confirmed in the Apocrypha, 1 Macabees 2:63

(63) Today he shall be lifted up, and tomorrow he shall in no wise be found, because he is returned to his dust, and his thought is perished.​

Isaiah 26:14

(14) The dead shall not live. The departed spirits shall not rise. Therefore you have visited and destroyed them, and caused all memory of them to perish.​

Job 7:8-10

(8) The eye of him who sees me shall see me no more. Your eyes shall be on me, but I shall not be.
(9) As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he who goes down to Sheol shall come up no more.
(10) He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.​

Otherwise these passages would not be in the Bible.

Does God contradict Himself? Or perhaps you have not understood the meaning of the symbolism or figures of speech that God has used?

You pass off scripture of eternal torment because you don't understand how bad sin is to God by saying a punishment that is worse than the crime. That is not for you to decide you are not God. Like I said, you are on very shaky ground trying to decide what God thinks based on your observations.

My judgement of what God thinks is based on reasonable interpretation of God's word. You have come to a different conclusion (perhaps, or perhaps you just believe what others say without studying God's word for yourself?). I guess we'll have to agree to differ. But for me, if the Scriptures say that at death our thoughts and memories perish, and therefore we do not know anything or feel anything, then it doesn't make any sense that we could be tortured with intense agony for all eternity! As Revelation 21:8 says, "... their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” The "lake that burns with fire and sulphur" is symbolic of death - a second death, and a final death with no hope of ever living again.

 

[Behold]

Funny how even the atheists can see that a loving God would not send anyone to suffer for eternity in flames...

Is it true that people who are on their way to hell try to air condition it before they move in?


Also....God does not send anyone to hell...

He allows you to go, as you chose it.

See, Heaven, just like Hell, is a FINAL DESTINATION for the Spirit.

If you CHOOSE not to be born again the you chose to end up where Christ Rejectors end up.

If you CHOOSE Jesus, by Faith then you have chosen to end up with God and the other born again.

 

[teamventure]

Death is the lack of life, just as darkness is the lack of light. Here's the Bible's (God's word) definition of death:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.​

Psalms 146:4

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

And confirmed in the Apocrypha, 1 Macabees 2:63

(63) Today he shall be lifted up, and tomorrow he shall in no wise be found, because he is returned to his dust, and his thought is perished.​

Isaiah 26:14

(14) The dead shall not live. The departed spirits shall not rise. Therefore you have visited and destroyed them, and caused all memory of them to perish.​

Job 7:8-10

(8) The eye of him who sees me shall see me no more. Your eyes shall be on me, but I shall not be.
(9) As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he who goes down to Sheol shall come up no more.
(10) He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.​

Does God contradict Himself? Or perhaps you have not understood the meaning of the symbolism or figures of speech that God has used?


My judgement of what God thinks is based on reasonable interpretation of God's word. You have come to a different conclusion (perhaps, or perhaps you just believe what others say without studying God's word for yourself?). I guess we'll have to agree to differ. But for me, if the Scriptures say that at death our thoughts and memories perish, and therefore we do not know anything or feel anything, then it doesn't make any sense that we could be tortured with intense agony for all eternity! As Revelation 21:8 says, "... their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” The "lake that burns with fire and sulphur" is symbolic of death - a second death, and a final death with no hope of ever living again.

You just posted a bunch of verses that say the dead know nothing. That doesn't even say anything about whether or not they're in torment.

Edit: Just like with the molech argument you're grasping at straws.

 

[keithr]

You just posted a bunch of verses that say the dead know nothing. That doesn't even say anything about whether or not they're in torment.

I posted some verses which says that when we die our thoughts perish. If we have no thoughts then we are unconscious, not able to think or experience anything. To torture an unconscious person is pointless and futile - they would have no knowledge of it; just like waking up after having had a surgical operation, you would have no memories of a surgeon cutting you up and making changes to your inwards parts. So of course those verse make no comment on whether or not the dead are in torment!

Edit: Just like with the molech argument you're grasping at straws.

You're the one that is clutching at straws, trying to convince yourself that death is not the end of life, and prefering to believe that God is the most evil being to have ever lived, rather than believe the revelation that God gave to Jesus (Revelation 1:1) that:

Revelation 2:11 (WEB):

(11) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.​

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

Revelation 20:13-15 (KJV):

(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Those verses are saying that overcoming Christians will be resurrected first, and they will be raised with an immortal nature, so that death will no longer have power over them (immortal means you cannot possibly die). Then all the rest of mankind that has died will be resurrected to life again, and eventually, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign, they will be judged. Those having been judged unworthy of eternal life (those whoses names have not been recorded in the "book of life") will suffer death again, and will never be restored to life again ("The wages of sin is death", Romans 6:23) - the second death is total destruction. Then there will be no more death, and no need of hades/hell, as everyone left living will live forever - hence death and hell are symbolically portrayed as being destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire (symbolic of total destruction).

I can present the evidence from the Bible, but I can't make you believe it. That is for God to perform in you.

Philippians 2:13 (WEB):

(13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.​

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (WEB)

(13) For this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when you received from us the word of the message of God, you accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also works in you who believe.​

 

[teamventure]

I posted some verses which says that when we die our thoughts perish. If we have no thoughts then we are unconscious, not able to think or experience anything. To torture an unconscious person is pointless and futile - they would have no knowledge of it; just like waking up after having had a surgical operation, you would have no memories of a surgeon cutting you up and making changes to your inwards parts. So of course those verse make no comment on whether or not the dead are in torment!


You're the one that is clutching at straws, trying to convince yourself that death is not the end of life, and prefering to believe that God is the most evil being to have ever lived, rather than believe the revelation that God gave to Jesus (Revelation 1:1) that:

Revelation 2:11 (WEB):

(11) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.​

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

Revelation 20:13-15 (KJV):

(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Those verses are saying that overcoming Christians will be resurrected first, and they will be raised with an immortal nature, so that death will no longer have power over them (immortal means you cannot possibly die). Then all the rest of mankind that has died will be resurrected to life again, and eventually, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign, they will be judged. Those having been judged unworthy of eternal life (those whoses names have not been recorded in the "book of life") will suffer death again, and will never be restored to life again ("The wages of sin is death", Romans 6:23) - the second death is total destruction. Then there will be no more death, and no need of hades/hell, as everyone left living will live forever - hence death and hell are symbolically portrayed as being destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire (symbolic of total destruction).

I can present the evidence from the Bible, but I can't make you believe it. That is for God to perform in you.

Philippians 2:13 (WEB):

(13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.​

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (WEB)

(13) For this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when you received from us the word of the message of God, you accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also works in you who believe.​

Preferring to believe God is evil?
God is holy and just to punish sin.
Because wickedness is more evil than you think it is.
You sound more like an atheist than a Christian and it reveals you truly don't understand sin.

 

[teamventure]

I posted some verses which says that when we die our thoughts perish. If we have no thoughts then we are unconscious, not able to think or experience anything. To torture an unconscious person is pointless and futile - they would have no knowledge of it; just like waking up after having had a surgical operation, you would have no memories of a surgeon cutting you up and making changes to your inwards parts. So of course those verse make no comment on whether or not the dead are in torment!


You're the one that is clutching at straws, trying to convince yourself that death is not the end of life, and prefering to believe that God is the most evil being to have ever lived, rather than believe the revelation that God gave to Jesus (Revelation 1:1) that:

Revelation 2:11 (WEB):

(11) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.​

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

Revelation 20:13-15 (KJV):

(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Those verses are saying that overcoming Christians will be resurrected first, and they will be raised with an immortal nature, so that death will no longer have power over them (immortal means you cannot possibly die). Then all the rest of mankind that has died will be resurrected to life again, and eventually, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign, they will be judged. Those having been judged unworthy of eternal life (those whoses names have not been recorded in the "book of life") will suffer death again, and will never be restored to life again ("The wages of sin is death", Romans 6:23) - the second death is total destruction. Then there will be no more death, and no need of hades/hell, as everyone left living will live forever - hence death and hell are symbolically portrayed as being destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire (symbolic of total destruction).

I can present the evidence from the Bible, but I can't make you believe it. That is for God to perform in you.

Philippians 2:13 (WEB):

(13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.​

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (WEB)

(13) For this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when you received from us the word of the message of God, you accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also works in you who believe.​

1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)

Isaiah 66:22-24

For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the LORD.

And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

2. Everlasting Life/Everlasting Contempt

Daniel 12:1-2

At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3. Eternal Fire/The Fire of Hell

Matthew 18:6-9

Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

4. Eternal Punishment/Eternal Life

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There is plenty of scripture that hell is eternal but how can you respond to this? "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

They will awake to everlasting contempt. What's your excuse for that scripture?

 

[Keiw]

We are being saved from eternal death.
The judgment of eternal death was the results, when A&E were restricted from partaking of the Tree of (Eternal) Life. Apart from that, all people do not have eternal existence of any kind.

God's deepest desire is to permanently dwell within the "earthen vessels" (our mortal bodies) of each and every person. However, because we all have free will, He knows that not all will come to receive His offer of forgiveness through the sacrificial death of Jesus, so that they may now receive God's judgment of His Gift of Eternal life. 1 John 5:12-13.

KJV John.3[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There are other truths that go along with what you have shown. Because Jesus is clear at Matthew 7:21-23--These are those who believe they follow Jesus, These are told they are his followers. These believe on Jesus, yet at judgement Jesus assures them--Get away from me you who work iniquity( practice a sin) i must confess i NEVER even knew you. Many Jaws will be dropped.
There are many requirements on the mortals part to get saved. At Verse 21 Jesus showed a very important one--Those living now to do his Fathers will( = OT-NT) get to enter his kingdom( be saved) Few know his Fathers will.

 

[keithr]

1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)
[Isaiah 66:24]
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

There is no mention there of any torture or torment, just dead bodies. The dead cannot feel anything!

2. Everlasting Life/Everlasting Contempt
Daniel 12:1-2
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Everlasting life is simple enough to understand. The word that it translated as "contempt" is the Hebrew word dera’own which is only used twice - the other time is in the verse you just quoted, Isaiah 66:24, where it is translated as "abhorrence". Strong's Concordance says, "from an unused root (meaning to repulse); an object of aversion: — abhorring, contempt". The Literal Standard Version translates it as "and some to reproaches—to continuous abhorrence". It means that those alive will continually be abhorred by those that were judged unworthy of everlasting life - they will become objects of dislike or repugnance. It does not say that those not having everlasting life will also have everlasting life (which would not make sense!), but a life of torment, nor anything about the lives of those that do have everlasting life.

3. Eternal Fire/The Fire of Hell
Matthew 18:6-9
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

The word translated as hell is not hades, it's Gehenna, which as has already been mentioned in this thread was a physical place just outside Jerusalem where fires were kept burning continuously to burn up the dead flesh of the temple sacrifices and dead criminals. A more precise translation says, Matthew 18:9 (TLV):

(9) If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. It’s better for you to enter into life with one eye than, having two eyes, to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.​

But again, it says nothing about eternal torture/torment. Jesus says it's better to lose an eye and enter into eternal life than to keep both eyes but end up perishing and not having eternal life.

4. Eternal Punishment/Eternal Life
Matthew 25:31-46
Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Again, the contrast is life that will be everlasting, or a punishment, which is death, that will be everlasting.

There is plenty of scripture that hell is eternal but how can you respond to this? "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

They will awake to everlasting contempt. What's your excuse for that scripture?

Excuse is the wrong word to use! I've already explained everlasting contempt above. But hell is not eternal:

Revelation 20:14 (WEB):

(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV):

(26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
​

Death and hell wil be destroyed.

 

[teamventure]

There is no mention there of any torture or torment, just dead bodies. The dead cannot feel anything!


Everlasting life is simple enough to understand. The word that it translated as "contempt" is the Hebrew word dera’own which is only used twice - the other time is in the verse you just quoted, Isaiah 66:24, where it is translated as "abhorrence". Strong's Concordance says, "from an unused root (meaning to repulse); an object of aversion: — abhorring, contempt". The Literal Standard Version translates it as "and some to reproaches—to continuous abhorrence". It means that those alive will continually be abhorred by those that were judged unworthy of everlasting life - they will become objects of dislike or repugnance. It does not say that those not having everlasting life will also have everlasting life (which would not make sense!), but a life of torment, nor anything about the lives of those that do have everlasting life.


The word translated as hell is not hades, it's Gehenna, which as has already been mentioned in this thread was a physical place just outside Jerusalem where fires were kept burning continuously to burn up the dead flesh of the temple sacrifices and dead criminals. A more precise translation says, Matthew 18:9 (TLV):

(9) If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. It’s better for you to enter into life with one eye than, having two eyes, to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.​

But again, it says nothing about eternal torture/torment. Jesus says it's better to lose an eye and enter into eternal life than to keep both eyes but end up perishing and not having eternal life.


Again, the contrast is life that will be everlasting, or a punishment, which is death, that will be everlasting.


Excuse is the wrong word to use! I've already explained everlasting contempt above. But hell is not eternal:

Revelation 20:14 (WEB):

(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

1 Corinthians 15:26 (KJV):

(26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
​

Death and hell wil be destroyed.

You explained everlasting contempt but not the part of the verse about being awakened. What is your explanation of that?

Btw Eternal death and torment does not mean being alive. You don't understand the concept of a second death.

And also explain this verse:
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 NIV

 

[Aunty Jane]

You explained everlasting contempt but not the part of the verse about being awakened. What is your explanation of that?

You don’t know about the resurrection? When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from his tomb where did he say Lazarus was? What did his sister say about her expectations concerning her brother?

John 11:11-14; 20-24....
“This He said, and after this He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died, 15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let’s go to him.” . . . . So then Martha, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed in the house. Martha then said to Jesus, “ Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise from the dead.” Martha said to Him, “ I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (NASB)

Please tell me what you read there....where was Lazarus? What was the Jewish expectation concerning the dead?

Btw Eternal death and torment does not mean being alive. You don't understand the concept of a second death.

Can you explain “the concept of the second death”? Where will I find that concept in the Bible?
No law of God demanded torture as a punishment. There was death for capital offences such as murder and compensation for theft and other crimes. What need does a loving God have for torture, especially for all eternity? What possible purpose would it serve?

Death is the opposite of life, nothing in the Bible says it is a continuation of it in another realm. There is no immortal soul ever mentioned in God’s word, therefore there is nothing to suffer. But you swallow that lie and the other lies built on it, because someone told you that this is what God does......they misinterpret the scriptures and feed others the same lies. Can you not see the devil at work. Eternal torture is something the devil would do, but not the God and Father of Jesus Christ, who is the epitome of love.

And also explain this verse:
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 NIV

Eternal death is an eternal punishment....why does it have to be a conscious suffering for eternity as a punishment for a short human lifetime of sin? We were not given an option to be born without sin.....So, where is the justice in that? Where do we see reflected in God’s laws a foundation for such a belief?
God’s punishments were always administered with a view to repentance and forgiveness....how does eternal suffering in “hell” accomplish that?

You have been handed a fake form of Christianity that paints God as a cruel fiend....suggesting that he somehow demands the eternal suffering of the wicked......he is content just to eliminate them from existence and get on with his first purpose....he has no need to torture anyone. They will know before their death that God has judged them as unworthy to retain the gift of life....that is enough, and a true reflection of God’s perfect justice.

The Catholic Church adopted the concept of hell from pagan beliefs and used it as a weapon of fear in order to keep the ignorant masses in line. Beliefs that have their origins in the ‘weedy’ imitation Christianity that Jesus said would be sown by the devil, stand out because they promote things that Jesus never taught. Gehenna has been explained on this thread, but the ‘die-hards’ refuse to accept the Bible’s explanation and what Jesus was teaching to his exclusively Jewish audience. What did the Jews understand Gehenna to mean? What Christendom teaches about it isn’t what Jesus said at all.

It’s time to wake up.....

 

[teamventure]

You don’t know about the resurrection? When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from his tomb where did he say Lazarus was? What did his sister say about her expectations concerning her brother?

John 11:11-14; 20-24....
“This He said, and after this He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died, 15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let’s go to him.” . . . . So then Martha, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed in the house. Martha then said to Jesus, “ Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise from the dead.” Martha said to Him, “ I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (NASB)

Please tell me what you read there....where was Lazarus? What was the Jewish expectation concerning the dead?


Can you explain “the concept of the second death”? Where will I find that concept in the Bible?
No law of God demanded torture as a punishment. There was death for capital offences such as murder and compensation for theft and other crimes. What need does a loving God have for torture, especially for all eternity? What possible purpose would it serve?

Death is the opposite of life, nothing in the Bible says it is a continuation of it in another realm. There is no immortal soul ever mentioned in God’s word, therefore there is nothing to suffer. But you swallow that lie and the other lies built on it, because someone told you that this is what God does......they misinterpret the scriptures and feed others the same lies. Can you not see the devil at work. Eternal torture is something the devil would do, but not the God and Father of Jesus Christ, who is the epitome of love.


Eternal death is an eternal punishment....why does it have to be a conscious suffering for eternity as a punishment for a short human lifetime of sin? We were not given an option to be born without sin.....So, where is the justice in that? Where do we see reflected in God’s laws a foundation for such a belief?
God’s punishments were always administered with a view to repentance and forgiveness....how does eternal suffering in “hell” accomplish that?

You have been handed a fake form of Christianity that paints God as a cruel fiend....suggesting that he somehow demands the eternal suffering of the wicked......he is content just to eliminate them from existence and get on with his first purpose....he has no need to torture anyone. They will know before their death that God has judged them as unworthy to retain the gift of life....that is enough, and a true reflection of God’s perfect justice.

The Catholic Church adopted the concept of hell from pagan beliefs and used it as a weapon of fear in order to keep the ignorant masses in line. Beliefs that have their origins in the ‘weedy’ imitation Christianity that Jesus said would be sown by the devil, stand out because they promote things that Jesus never taught. Gehenna has been explained on this thread, but the ‘die-hards’ refuse to accept the Bible’s explanation and what Jesus was teaching to his exclusively Jewish audience. What did the Jews understand Gehenna to mean? What Christendom teaches about it isn’t what Jesus said at all.

It’s time to wake up.....

I do know about the resurrection.

Explain where it says some will be awakened to everlasting contempt.

And I don't need to explain the concept of the second death because it's in scripture:
—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8 NIV

 

[teamventure]

You don’t know about the resurrection? When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from his tomb where did he say Lazarus was? What did his sister say about her expectations concerning her brother?

John 11:11-14; 20-24....
“This He said, and after this He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died, 15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let’s go to him.” . . . . So then Martha, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed in the house. Martha then said to Jesus, “ Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise from the dead.” Martha said to Him, “ I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (NASB)

Please tell me what you read there....where was Lazarus? What was the Jewish expectation concerning the dead?


Can you explain “the concept of the second death”? Where will I find that concept in the Bible?
No law of God demanded torture as a punishment. There was death for capital offences such as murder and compensation for theft and other crimes. What need does a loving God have for torture, especially for all eternity? What possible purpose would it serve?

Death is the opposite of life, nothing in the Bible says it is a continuation of it in another realm. There is no immortal soul ever mentioned in God’s word, therefore there is nothing to suffer. But you swallow that lie and the other lies built on it, because someone told you that this is what God does......they misinterpret the scriptures and feed others the same lies. Can you not see the devil at work. Eternal torture is something the devil would do, but not the God and Father of Jesus Christ, who is the epitome of love.


Eternal death is an eternal punishment....why does it have to be a conscious suffering for eternity as a punishment for a short human lifetime of sin? We were not given an option to be born without sin.....So, where is the justice in that? Where do we see reflected in God’s laws a foundation for such a belief?
God’s punishments were always administered with a view to repentance and forgiveness....how does eternal suffering in “hell” accomplish that?

You have been handed a fake form of Christianity that paints God as a cruel fiend....suggesting that he somehow demands the eternal suffering of the wicked......he is content just to eliminate them from existence and get on with his first purpose....he has no need to torture anyone. They will know before their death that God has judged them as unworthy to retain the gift of life....that is enough, and a true reflection of God’s perfect justice.

The Catholic Church adopted the concept of hell from pagan beliefs and used it as a weapon of fear in order to keep the ignorant masses in line. Beliefs that have their origins in the ‘weedy’ imitation Christianity that Jesus said would be sown by the devil, stand out because they promote things that Jesus never taught. Gehenna has been explained on this thread, but the ‘die-hards’ refuse to accept the Bible’s explanation and what Jesus was teaching to his exclusively Jewish audience. What did the Jews understand Gehenna to mean? What Christendom teaches about it isn’t what Jesus said at all.

It’s time to wake up.....

You are explaining your opinion more than scripture.

It's time to wake up.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I do know about the resurrection.

I have a feeling that you don't. When the Jews spoke of "the resurrection" and Martha said it was to take place "on the last day".....what do you think she meant? It was to take place at a specific time, so when is "the last day"?

Explain where it says some will be awakened to everlasting contempt.

The record of man's experience in this world created by the devil, (1 John 5:19) will be preserved for all time to come as a means to set precedents concerning, not only human behavior, but also the behavior of God's angelic sons. The object lesson that we have all all subjected to will create that record so that it can never happen again. We have "been there and done that" so no one can ever challenge God's Sovereignty again.
The "everlasting contempt" for those who oppose God and his son will remain in that record forever.

And I don't need to explain the concept of the second death because it's in scripture:
—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8 NIV

The "lake of fire" is "gehenna" and the symbolism is lost on those who have swallowed the lie.....fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of sulfur (brimstone) and the maggots feasted on the flesh that fires did not consume. There is no literal place of torture.....God has no need to do that. Why would he?

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are explaining your opinion more than scripture.

It's time to wake up.

The truth is confronting, but only those who have their eyes and ears open to what the Bible really teaches, will be granted understanding in this "time of the end".....waking up is what God does to us...not what we do to ourselves. He chooses us. (John 6:65)

 

[teamventure]

The record of man's experience in this world created by the devil, (1 John 5:19) will be preserved for all time to come as a means to set precedents concerning, not only human behavior, but also the behavior of God's angelic sons. The object lesson that we have all all subjected to will create that record so that it can never happen again. We have "been there and done that" so no one can ever challenge God's Sovereignty again.
The "everlasting contempt" for those who oppose God and his son will remain in that record forever.

You still haven't explained the part what it means to be AWAKENED to everlasting contempt.
Nor have you explained "eternal punishment"
As stated in the verse below.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 NIV

 

[teamventure]

The truth is confronting, but only those who have their eyes and ears open to what the Bible really teaches, will be granted understanding in this "time of the end".....waking up is what God does to us...not what we do to ourselves. He chooses us. (John 6:65)

The truth is confronting but your words are misleading.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You still haven't explained the part what it means to be AWAKENED to everlasting contempt.

If you understand the timeframe of the resurrection you will see that the Bible refers to two separate resurrection events. The "first resurrection" is for the elect and these will be resurrected to immortal life in heaven, ruling with Christ in his Kingdom and fulfilling their role as "priests" for those who come back in the second, or general resurrection of the dead later. (Revelation 20:6; John 5:28-29)

Most people are completely unaware that the Bible speaks about two resurrections because the immortal soul doctrine masks it.
The "first resurrection" is obviously first in time and first in importance since it establishes the Kingdom with its full compliment of co-rulers with Christ in heaven just prior to the end of the current world system.

The second resurrection is for those who will experience an earthly return to life.....the one that Christ and his apostles demonstrated in the first century....these ones were returned to this life, and reunited with their families.
The ones taken to heaven will rule those who are raised on earth...this is after all, the place where God put us to enjoy everlasting life in the beginning of man's history. Adam was never told about "heaven or hell"...just "life or death". His continued life depended on his obedience.

So for those who are resurrected back to the earth, God's Kingdom will rule them for 1,000 years gradually bringing mankind back to the sinless condition that Adam and his wife first enjoyed in the garden.

The resurrected ones who were unrighteous when they died, are given opportunity during that thousand years to learn about the Creator and to bring their lives into harmony with his requirements. At the end of the thousand years, satan, who has been imprisoned with his demons all that time so as not to interfere with the purpose of the Kingdom's rulership, (Revelation 20:1-3) will be "let loose for a little while". He will try to mislead mankind once again, but this time, if he manages to take humans away from God, they will be annihilated on the spot. This is how they are raised to "everlasting contempt"...to be given a second chance and still to throw God's generosity back in his face is the ultimate act of contempt.

Being sinless and tempted as Adam and his wife were, there is now nothing to prove....those who succumb will be eliminated from existence to join Adam and Eve in a place from which no one returns. The "goats" are already there as Jesus said, in the place "reserved for satan and his angels", so 'gehenna' will have many more wicked ones sent there for the sentence of eternal death after the thousand years....and there is no mention of the lake of fire ever going out of existence. That way there is a place for those who may abuse their free will in the future. Remember that Adam was sinless and made a bad choice to join his disobedient wife....they had no excuse to sin....but their children, being born with a sinful nature through no fault on our part, God kindly sent his son to redeem us. The Kingdom will bring all redeemed and faithful mankind back into reconciliation with their Creator.
That is what the Kingdom is for.

Nor have you explained "eternal punishment"
As stated in the verse below.

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 NIV

I think the above covers both....

The truth is confronting but your words are misleading.

The majority are being misled and have been for centuries....do you have any idea about what was the truth before Christendom was born?

What Christendom believes is founded on lies.....the trinity....immortality of the soul ....and hellfire are all adoptions from paganism by the "church" that claimed to represent Christ, but did the exact opposite.
Protestantism broke the power of the Roman Catholic church, but it did little to unite the Christians under one banner....they took their mother's dirty laundry with them when they left, and wondered why they ended up in such a disunited and fragmented mess. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

 

[teamventure]

Scripture has tried and tried to warn us that hell is eternal punishment so many times and in so many ways but people don't want to believe it so they make up explanations.
It would be one thing if there were only a couple scriptures that look like they need an explanation but there are so many passages.
Wake up!

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 NIV

“the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched”
Isaiah 66:24 NIV

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 NIV

They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:42 NIV

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night.”
Revelation 14:11 NIV