What Are we Getting Saved From?

[Taken]

You still haven't said where in the Bible it teaches that anyone will ever be separated from God. Where does it say that God will do that? You should not teach anything that is not supported by the Bible, and if it is supported by the Bible you should tell us where, or else no sensible person will take you seriously.


Is that a question for me? I don't believe any living being will be separated from God!

Every natural born human is born separated from God.
Every living human not Believing in God is separated from God.
Every body & living soul that shall be raised up in damnation is separated from God.
Every fallen Angel is separated from God.

Separated from God means NOT WITH God.
The Unsaved shall be Permanently separated from God.

 

[keithr]

ah well i wouldnt accept that by itself, sure, but im not seeing any deception there; Saul knew that Samuel was dead, and while there is no “here” (good catch) there is also no “all your sons” either eh

You're not seeing any deception?! Psalms 146:4 tells us:

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

When we die our thoughts cease - we become unconscious, or as Jesus describes it, it is like a deep sleep. Therefore Samuel could not have communicated with the woman or with Saul.

God and Samuel had refused to communicate with Saul, and it was because God would not communicate with Saul that he resorted to consulting a necromancer - someone who claimed to be able to talk with people who are dead. So it is not plausible that God would change His mind and permit a medium, condemned by divine Law, to overrule the matter. Remember that the woman had "a familiar spirit". That spirit was a demon, or a fallen angel, and it was the demon that was communicating, not the woman or Samuel (whose thoughts had ceased when he died). Demons are followers of Satan, a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44). They continually lie and deceive, still trying to convince people of Satan's first lie, "You won’t really die" (Genesis 3:4). There was a lot of deception going on there!

but to me it is a fail, as it is basically saying that the Bible is lying to us, else it would have been written differently, qualified as such, at least imo.

The passage is written to honestly tell it as it was. It is not lying, you just need to understand it in context and in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

that is completely rejected on various grounds, the “demon” one being the most popular, seems like, even though there is no hint of that in the passage

The "familiar spirit" is a big hint that a demon was involved!

 

[keithr]

Every natural born human is born separated from God.
Every living human not Believing in God is separated from God.
Every body & living soul that shall be raised up in damnation is separated from God.
Every fallen Angel is separated from God.

Separated from God means NOT WITH God.
The Unsaved shall be Permanently separated from God.

What! Still no Bible references!

Acts 17:11 (WEB):

(11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.​

If the Bereans did not even take the apostle's teachings as true without checking to confirm they were in harmony with the Scriptures, and they are commended for it, then nobody should accept what you're saying without confirmation from the Bible. You've so far provided no Biblical backup for your ideas. I therefore don't believe a word you're saying!

 

[Taken]

What! Still no Bible references!

Acts 17:11 (WEB):

(11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.​

If the Bereans did not even take the apostle's teachings as true without checking to confirm they were in harmony with the Scriptures, and they are commended for it, then nobody should accept what you're saying without confirmation from the Bible. You've so far provided no Biblical backup for your ideas. I therefore don't believe a word you're saying!

Really you require to be quoted Scriptural verses to Know:
Humans are naturally born Not knowing or believing in God?
Not believing in God is Sin Against God?
God created holy angels to serve Him?
Angels that reject God are no longer holy?
Humans that reject God are not converted?

Unholy angels and non-converted humans...SHALL forever become separated from God?

This is elementary Scriptural knowledge.
Some people use Student Bibles.

 

[bbyrd009]

When we die our thoughts cease - we become unconscious, or as Jesus describes it, it is like a deep sleep. Therefore Samuel could not have communicated with the woman or with Saul.

therefore the rich man and lazarus could not have communicated either, but really one doesnt need Samuel’s testimony to make the point anyway, as he becomes just another witness in a chain.

also im finding “do not communicate with the dead,” but i cant find “you cannot talk to the dead” anywhere

anyway, this is kinda the abridged version, there’s an unabridged that you likely are not interested in anyway, but tbh im just kind of done with it, since believers seem to be committed to “death, more abundantly” and i am not really interested in reasoning them away from it now. I wish you the best in your quest for immortality, and i hope you have a wonderful afterlife, if that is what you seek.

 

[bbyrd009]

You've so far provided no Biblical backup for your ideas. I therefore don't believe a word you're saying!

ha well to be fair the Bible clearly says that Samuel told Saul “your sons will be with me” and you dont believe that either right

 

[teamventure]

You are aware that "a lake of fire and brimstone" is a metaphor. A wonderful, all powerful, loving creator would never put one of his creations in a lake of fire and brimstone for eternity to suffer the burning sensation of a fire, 24/7 X trillions of years. Think about it.

What you say sounds like one step away from what an atheist says.
"If God is loving he wouldn't send people to hell or the lof."
You need to put some faith in the word of God, no the lake of fire is clearly not a metaphor and you have no explanation of it being such.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What you say sounds like one step away from what an atheist says.
"If God is loving he wouldn't send people to hell or the lof."
You need to put some faith in the word of God, no the lake of fire is clearly not a metaphor and you have no explanation of it being such.

Funny how even the atheists can see that a loving God would not send anyone to suffer for eternity in flames....it is completely contrary to his nature and also out of harmony with his justice....the punishment does not fit the crime.

The "hell" you refer to is "Gehenna" which in Greek is not hell at all.....it was Jerusalem's garbage dump where things were cast into a continually burning fire for disposal. Nothing alive ever went into Gehenna.
There is no hell in the Bible because there is no immortal soul to go anywhere. A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature...both man and animals. They all go to the same place. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Like Adam...he became a "soul" when God started him breathing. He was told that he would return to the dust out of which he was made.....no heaven or hell was ever mentioned.

A soul is not a disembodied spirit. And spirits are those who dwell in heaven with God if they are faithful...or wreak havoc on earth if they are wicked.

 

[keithr]

You need to put some faith in the word of God, no the lake of fire is clearly not a metaphor and you have no explanation of it being such.

We need to understand God's word to us first, otherwise we will get a totally wrong impression of God's character. He is a loving God. God is the author of the Bible - His word to us. To correctly understand the Bible our interpretations must harmonise all Bible verses; if the Bible seems to contradict itself then we can be sure that we have misunderstood it (or our translation of the Scriptures has errors in it).

The Bible says, concerning Molech, the God of the Ammonites (note that Gehenna means "the valley of (the son of) Hinnon"):

2 Chronicles 28:3 (WEB):

(3) Moreover he burned incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom Yahweh cast out before the children of Israel.​

And God says, Jeremiah 32:35 (WEB):

(35) They built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”​

Leviticus 20:2-3 (WEB):

(2) “Moreover, you shall tell the children of Israel, ‘Anyone of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who live as foreigners in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech; he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.
(3) I also will set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people because he has given of his offspring to Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.​

God says that burning children (or anyone) in fire as a sacrifice is something that never even entered His thoughts, so it is not at all likely that He had planned before He even started His creation that He would torture millions of humans in fire for all eternity. When people are immersed in fire it will kill them fairly quickly. Add in sulphur, which is highly poisonous, and nobody would survive for long - they would die with seconds. So for people to suffer for eternity in fire would require God to miraculously preserve them in the fire, continuously restoring their destroyed flesh, so that they would continue living and feeling pain, and God would have to do that for all eternity. Yet God says that such thoughts never entered His mind, and that sacrificing children in fire profaned (defiled) His name. It is therefore inconceivable that God would torture people in fire forever. Would God command that people who burnt their children should be put to death by stoning, and would God set His face against such persons, while all the while planning to do worse Himself? Could you honestly worship a God that wants you to love Him and yet intends to torture your loved ones in burning agony for all eternity? Do you really think that God is more evil than the most evil of men?

 

[keithr]

Really you require to be quoted Scriptural verses to Know:
Humans are naturally born Not knowing or believing in God?
Not believing in God is Sin Against God?
God created holy angels to serve Him?
Angels that reject God are no longer holy?
Humans that reject God are not converted?

No, I asked for Bible references to support your claims that:

Every natural born human is born separated from God.
Every living human not Believing in God is separated from God.
Every body & living soul that shall be raised up in damnation is separated from God.
Every fallen Angel is separated from God.​

Sparrows don't believe in God, yet Jesus tells us, Matthew 10:29 (WEB):

(29) “Aren’t two sparrows sold for an assarion coin? Not one of them falls on the ground apart from your Father’s will,​

So sparrows are not separated from God. Neither are any humans.

Unholy angels and non-converted humans...SHALL forever become separated from God?

This is elementary Scriptural knowledge.

So why can't you provide Bible references to support that knowledge? I can't find any verses to support separation from God, so help me to find that knowledge.

 

[Taken]

No, I asked for Bible references to support your claims that:

Initially you asked nothing specific.

Every natural born human is born separated from God.
Every living human not Believing in God is separated from God.
Every body & living soul that shall be raised up in damnation is separated from God.
Every fallen Angel is separated from God.

​

^ That is specific. Why did you not search the scriptures for yourself?

Sparrows don't believe in God, yet Jesus tells us, Matthew 10:29 (WEB):

(29) “Aren’t two sparrows sold for an assarion coin? Not one of them falls on the ground apart from your Father’s will,​

So sparrows are not separated from God. Neither are any humans.

Provide the Scripture whereby ANIMALS are required to BELIEVE IN God...
I search, found NONE.

So why can't you provide Bible references to support that knowledge? I can't find any verses to support separation from God, so help me to find that knowledge.

Because you asked nothing specific.

Every natural born human is born separated from God.
* Not believing IN God, IS Sin Against God, IS separation from God.
Isa 59:2 separated
Pss 51:5 conceived in sin
Pss 58:2 from birth speak lies.
Rom 3:23 all have sinned.


Every living human not Believing in God is separated from God.
* Not believing IN God, IS Against God.
Isa 59:2 separated
Matt 12:30 with God Saved, Against God scattered
Mark 16:16 with God Saved; Without God damned.


Every body & living soul that shall be raised up in damnation is separated from God.
* All living souls shall return to their dead body’s. All dead body’s thus shall be raised up, TO face their Judge.
John 5:29 raised in glory
John 5:29 raised in damnation

Every fallen Angel is separated from God.
Matt 24:41
Jude 1:6
Rev 12:9

So sparrows are not separated from God. Neither are any humans.

A sparrow is an animal. Animals have neither the ability or requirement TO BELIEVE IN God. Void of such requirement, animals can not, do not sin.

 

[keithr]

Initially you asked nothing specific.

I asked you to support your claims with Bible references. Then in post #483 I asked for references to specifically support your claims in post #481.

^ That is specific. Why did you not search the scriptures for yourself?

Because that specific list is what you are claiming in your post #481. You are trying to convince me; I'm not trying to convince myself to believe what you have claimed, and for which I am unaware of any Scriptural support. I did a search and could not find any support for your claims.

Every natural born human is born separated from God.
* Not believing IN God, IS Sin Against God, IS separation from God.
Isa 59:2 separated

Why are you so lazy that you can't be bothered to quote the Scriptures? What are you trying to hide?!

Isaiah 59:2 (WEB):

(2) But your iniquities have separated you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
(MKJV):
(2) But your iniquities have come between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, from hearing.
(ISV):
(2) Instead, your iniquities have been barriers between you and your God, and your sins have concealed his face from you so that he won't listen.​

Yep, I had already found that one verse in my search. However, it does not support your claims. It is just saying that because of their sins they have become alienated from God - He has withdrawn His favour and blessings. They are not separated from God; God is just not responding to their prayers and He withholds His help and blessings. Everyone has sinned ("for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23). For Christians our sins have already been forgiven, and so we have direct access to God ("For through him [Jesus] we both [Jews and Gentiles] have our access in one Spirit to the Father" - Ephesians 2:18). But nobody is separated from God; nobody can hide from God.

Pss 51:5 conceived in sin
Pss 58:2 from birth speak lies.
Rom 3:23 all have sinned.

Being born with a sinful nature, and being a sinner, does not mean that we are separated from God. You seem to now be arguing that everyone is separated from God, but as a reminder my question was (from post #456), "Where in the Bible does it mention people/angels being forever separated from God? Where do you get that idea from?". That was in response to your claim that angels don't die "a mortal death" (LOL, mortal means you can die - all deaths are a mortal death!) and "A fallen angel's death, is a spiritual death, which simply means separated forever from God".

Again, it is not possible for you to be separated from God, except by your destruction. Death is not described anywhere in the Bible as living forever but separated from God.

Every living human not Believing in God is separated from God.
* Not believing IN God, IS Against God.

Where in the Bible does it say that?

Matt 12:30 with God Saved, Against God scattered

Matthew 12:30

(30) “He who is not with me is against me, and he who doesn’t gather with me, scatters.​

That verse is Jesus saying anybody not with him is against him, and if anybody doesn't gather believers then he scatters believers, i.e. he hinders the gathering of the saints into the Church. There's no mention of anybody being saved, or any mention of God (Jesus is not God), nor of anyone being separated from God.

Mark 16:16 with God Saved; Without God damned.

Mark 16:16

(16) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.​

Again, there is no mention of being separated from God. It just says that who ever believes (in God and that Jesus is His Son) will be saved from the punishment for sin, otherwise they will be condemned to the punishment for sin, which is death.

Every body & living soul that shall be raised up in damnation is separated from God.
* All living souls shall return to their dead body’s. All dead body’s thus shall be raised up, TO face their Judge.

Their dead body's what? : Or do you mean "dead body" and "dead bodies"?

John 5:29 raised in glory
John 5:29 raised in damnation

John 5:28-29 (WEB):

(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
(29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.​

Again, there is no mention of being separated from God. It is Jesus referring to the resurrection of non-Christians during his 1,000 year reign, as in Revelation 20:13 (WEB):

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
​

The result of that judgement is the same as mentioned elsewhere - life or death. Thee is no mention of being separated from God.

Every fallen Angel is separated from God.
Matt 24:41

Matthew 24:41 (WEB):

(41) Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one will be left.​

What has that got to do with fallen angels being separated from God?!

Jude 1:6

Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

Again, this says nothing about being separated from God forever. It just says that God has been keeping them bound up (to stop them interfering with mankind) until it is time for their judgement (1 Corinthians 6:3 - "Don’t you know that we will judge angels").

Rev 12:9

Revelation 12:9 (WEB):

(9) The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.​

The fallen angels are thrown down to the earth. That is not separation from God!

None of the verses that you referenced (but didn't bother quoting) support the idea of eternal separation from God. I'm afraid you have failed to convince me. Your theory is flawed.

 

[teamventure]

Funny how even the atheists can see that a loving God would not send anyone to suffer for eternity in flames....it is completely contrary to his nature and also out of harmony with his justice....the punishment does not fit the crime.

The "hell" you refer to is "Gehenna" which in Greek is not hell at all.....it was Jerusalem's garbage dump where things were cast into a continually burning fire for disposal. Nothing alive ever went into Gehenna.
There is no hell in the Bible because there is no immortal soul to go anywhere. A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature...both man and animals. They all go to the same place. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Like Adam...he became a "soul" when God started him breathing. He was told that he would return to the dust out of which he was made.....no heaven or hell was ever mentioned.

A soul is not a disembodied spirit. And spirits are those who dwell in heaven with God if they are faithful...or wreak havoc on earth if they are wicked.

Mkay, I'lI go with scripture:
"the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever"
"The worm dieth not"
and "a place where there is weaping and gnashing of teeth."

 

[teamventure]

We need to understand God's word to us first, otherwise we will get a totally wrong impression of God's character. He is a loving God. God is the author of the Bible - His word to us. To correctly understand the Bible our interpretations must harmonise all Bible verses; if the Bible seems to contradict itself then we can be sure that we have misunderstood it (or our translation of the Scriptures has errors in it).

The Bible says, concerning Molech, the God of the Ammonites (note that Gehenna means "the valley of (the son of) Hinnon"):

2 Chronicles 28:3 (WEB):

(3) Moreover he burned incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom Yahweh cast out before the children of Israel.​

And God says, Jeremiah 32:35 (WEB):

(35) They built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”​

Leviticus 20:2-3 (WEB):

(2) “Moreover, you shall tell the children of Israel, ‘Anyone of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who live as foreigners in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech; he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.
(3) I also will set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people because he has given of his offspring to Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.​

God says that burning children (or anyone) in fire as a sacrifice is something that never even entered His thoughts, so it is not at all likely that He had planned before He even started His creation that He would torture millions of humans in fire for all eternity. When people are immersed in fire it will kill them fairly quickly. Add in sulphur, which is highly poisonous, and nobody would survive for long - they would die with seconds. So for people to suffer for eternity in fire would require God to miraculously preserve them in the fire, continuously restoring their destroyed flesh, so that they would continue living and feeling pain, and God would have to do that for all eternity. Yet God says that such thoughts never entered His mind, and that sacrificing children in fire profaned (defiled) His name. It is therefore inconceivable that God would torture people in fire forever. Would God command that people who burnt their children should be put to death by stoning, and would God set His face against such persons, while all the while planning to do worse Himself? Could you honestly worship a God that wants you to love Him and yet intends to torture your loved ones in burning agony for all eternity? Do you really think that God is more evil than the most evil of men?

All you are sharing is a biased opinion about molech, and you're argument is illogical.
If people shouldn't sacrifice their children to a pagan deity then God would be wrong for allowing someone to be burned in the lake of fire? Who are you to decide what is right or wrong for the almighty God to do based on your speculation?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Mkay, I'lI go with scripture:
"the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever"

So will I.....please read it again.....it is not their "torment" that goes on "forever and ever" it is the "smoke". Have you ever been to an area that has recently been devastated by a wild fire? What is left? The smouldering ashes of what once was....a reminder of what happened there....it sometimes goes on for weeks. Fire in the Bible is often used as a symbol for complete and utter destruction, which is why Christ referred to "gehenna" which is so often erroneously translated as "hell"....it is no such thing. Nothing alive was ever cast into gehenna.

"The worm dieth not"

Do you know why the worms don't die? Because "Gehenna" was Jerusalem's garbage dump and fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off......that is why the worms never die because they never ran out of food.
The carcasses of dead animals as well as the bodies of executed criminals could be thrown into "gehenna" because they weren't considered worthy of a decent burial and in Jewish belief (Jews were the only ones Christ preached to) there was no afterlife. They believed in resurrection, which was a return to this life on earth. If you had no tomb or grave with your name and lineage inscribed, you were considered to be unworthy of a resurrection. It was tantamount to saying that the person would never see life again because God would not remember them....it meant eternal death, which is an eternal punishment.

That is what your "hell" is.....there is no such literal place. The symbolisms in the Bible seem to be completely lost on those who are subject to Christendom's teachings. Their God is nothing but a fiend watching and enjoying the eternal suffering of others.....that is NOT a god that I could worship. And if his penalties under the laws he gave to Israel did NOT include torture of any kind, why would he start to do something he punished Israel for? (Jeremiah 7:31)

and "a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Do you have to be alive to weep and gnash your teeth? Do you imagine that spirits weep?
The weeping and gnashing of teeth that Jesus spoke of was often in regard to the Pharisees who gnashed their teeth on a daily basis because of the preaching of Jesus Christ. Where did Jesus tell the Pharisees that they were going....and all the other wicked ones as well? (Matthew 23:33, Matthew 24:48-51)

The 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' had to be done whilst someone is alive, but the wicked are consigned to gehenna, not hades, which is also translated "hell" in most English Bibles. Hades releases its captives because it is the common grave of all mankind. (Revelation 20:13-14) No one in hades is alive either. "Hell" (sheol/hades) is a place of rest for the dead who will be resurrected, but "gehenna" is a place of eternal death for those who disqualified themselves because they never did their homework....they never 'did the will of God' because no one taught them to.

Those in Christendom have been sold a pack of lies for centuries because they are unaware that the devil has sold them these beliefs as part of the "weeds" that Jesus warned us about.....you all behave as if the weeds never existed...but they have been around for centuries, misleading as many as the devil can fool. This explains why Jesus says at the judgment....
Matthew 7:21-23....NKJV
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

They are completely oblivious to the fact that Jesus has never known them....."NEVER" means "not ever"......do you know why? Will you be one of those people? We all have to ask that question.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Jesus pointed out what the problem was in fact, This world ! that is full of Deceptions and Delusions in fact and he offered up the Kingdom of God in fact for all !
When one truly understands the fact, then one is born again ! such a one is not of this world from that point on, but is of the Kingdom of God ! not of this world under the influence of such as Satan's works. for one knows what one is truly dealing with.
Such a one is Saved ! but just because you have had the birthday ? does not mean that you don't seek forward in Christ Jesus everyday, as it's not a one off but a spiritual rebirth that is on track, a life long walk with Christ Jesus. it's a birthday everyday set on Christ Jesus.

 

[teamventure]

So will I.....please read it again.....it is not their "torment" that goes on "forever and ever" it is the "smoke". Have you ever been to an area that has recently been devastated by a wild fire? What is left? The smouldering ashes of what once was....a reminder of what happened there....it sometimes goes on for weeks. Fire in the Bible is often used as a symbol for complete and utter destruction, which is why Christ referred to "gehenna" which is so often erroneously translated as "hell"....it is no such thing. Nothing alive was ever cast into gehenna.


Do you know why the worms don't die? Because "Gehenna" was Jerusalem's garbage dump and fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off......that is why the worms never die because they never ran out of food.
The carcasses of dead animals as well as the bodies of executed criminals could be thrown into "gehenna" because they weren't considered worthy of a decent burial and in Jewish belief (Jews were the only ones Christ preached to) there was no afterlife. They believed in resurrection, which was a return to this life on earth. If you had no tomb or grave with your name and lineage inscribed, you were considered to be unworthy of a resurrection. It was tantamount to saying that the person would never see life again because God would not remember them....it meant eternal death, which is an eternal punishment.

That is what your "hell" is.....there is no such literal place. The symbolisms in the Bible seem to be completely lost on those who are subject to Christendom's teachings. Their God is nothing but a fiend watching and enjoying the eternal suffering of others.....that is NOT a god that I could worship. And if his penalties under the laws he gave to Israel did NOT include torture of any kind, why would he start to do something he punished Israel for? (Jeremiah 7:31)


Do you have to be alive to weep and gnash your teeth? Do you imagine that spirits weep?
The weeping and gnashing of teeth that Jesus spoke of was often in regard to the Pharisees who gnashed their teeth on a daily basis because of the preaching of Jesus Christ. Where did Jesus tell the Pharisees that they were going....and all the other wicked ones as well? (Matthew 23:33, Matthew 24:48-51)

The 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' had to be done whilst someone is alive, but the wicked are consigned to gehenna, not hades, which is also translated "hell" in most English Bibles. Hades releases its captives because it is the common grave of all mankind. (Revelation 20:13-14) No one in hades is alive either. "Hell" (sheol/hades) is a place of rest for the dead who will be resurrected, but "gehenna" is a place of eternal death for those who disqualified themselves because they never did their homework....they never 'did the will of God' because no one taught them to.

Those in Christendom have been sold a pack of lies for centuries because they are unaware that the devil has sold them these beliefs as part of the "weeds" that Jesus warned us about.....you all behave as if the weeds never existed...but they have been around for centuries, misleading as many as the devil can fool. This explains why Jesus says at the judgment....
Matthew 7:21-23....NKJV
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

They are completely oblivious to the fact that Jesus has never known them....."NEVER" means "not ever"......do you know why? Will you be one of those people? We all have to ask that question.

You do well with explaining away scripture but not well believing it as plainly stated.

If you can't worship a God that punishes sin because he is holy and just than what god do you worship? Or since you seem to have a beef with Christendom a better question is what religion are you?

 

[keithr]

All you are sharing is a biased opinion about molech, and you're argument is illogical.

I quoted Scripture and then commented on those verses. Are you saying that you think I misinterpreted those verses? So you think that God will perform on a grand scale what He described as an abomination, and which He said profanes His name? He said people who did that should be put to death - yet you think He will perform similar acts on a grander scale and in an even more evil way? In what way is my argument illogical? How do you interpret those verses if different from my summary of them? In what way is my opinion about Molech biased?

Jeremiah 32:35

(35) They ... cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”​

Leviticus 20:2

(2) “Moreover, you shall tell the children of Israel, ‘Anyone of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who live as foreigners in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech; he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.
(3) I also will set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people because he has given of his offspring to Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.​

Who are you to decide what is right or wrong for the almighty God to do based on your speculation?

As an ambassador for Jesus and God (2 Corinthians 5:20) I try not to speculate but to quote God's word and to correctly interpret it as best as I can (2 Timothy 2:15). If you think that my interpretation is incorrect then please explain why. Just saying "your argument is illogical" is not going to help me or others to more correctly understand the Scriptures.

 

[teamventure]

I quoted Scripture and then commented on those verses. Are you saying that you think I misinterpreted those verses? So you think that God will perform on a grand scale what He described as an abomination, and which He said profanes His name? He said people who did that should be put to death - yet you think He will perform similar acts on a grander scale and in an even more evil way? In what way is my argument illogical? How do you interpret those verses if different from my summary of them? In what way is my opinion about Molech biased?

Jeremiah 32:35

(35) They ... cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”​

Leviticus 20:2

(2) “Moreover, you shall tell the children of Israel, ‘Anyone of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who live as foreigners in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech; he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.
(3) I also will set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people because he has given of his offspring to Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.​

As an ambassador for Jesus and God (2 Corinthians 5:20) I try not to speculate but to quote God's word and to correctly interpret it as best as I can (2 Timothy 2:15). If you think that my interpretation is incorrect then please explain why. Just saying "your argument is illogical" is not going to help me or others to more correctly understand the Scriptures.

Offering you're children to molech
And God punishing sin
The only thing those two things have in common is fire which you are getting hung up about.
Nevermind that one is men worshiping a false diety and the other is the Lord God punishing sin.
And you ignore the rest of scripture that teaches about the lake of fire all based on your idea that if God says not to burn your babies alive then he would not be just in punishing sin.
You are basically deciding for yourself with your own opinion what you think God is right to do, that is shaky ground you are on.

 

[keithr]

Offering you're children to molech

I presume you mean "your children". ;)

The only thing those two things have in common is fire which you are getting hung up about.

Just because I'm willing to discuss it that does not mean that I am "hung up about it".

Nevermind that one is men worshiping a false diety and the other is the Lord God punishing sin.

You obviously don't understand why I quoted those verses. The verses reveal what God thinks about killing people in fire, and show that it is inconceivable that He (who never changes) would therefore even think to keep people alive burning in fire for all eternity. God's perfect justice is a punishment equal to the crime - Exodus 21:23-25 (WEB):

(23) But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,
(24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
(25) burning for burning, wound for wound, and bruise for bruise.​

So again, it is inconceivable that God would chose to punish people with a punishment that is infinitely worse than the crime.

Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

And you ignore the rest of scripture that teaches about the lake of fire

And you ignore the rest of Scripture that teaches that the punishment for sin is death, not eternal torture.

based on your idea that if God says not to burn your babies alive then he would not be just in punishing sin.

That is obviously incorrect. God has from the beginning said He would punish sin and disobedience - Genesis 2:17 (WEB):

(17) but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”​

Note that God told Adam that the punishment would be death, not an eternal life of torture.

Ezekiel 18:20-21 (WEB):

(20) The soul who sins, he shall die. ...
(21) “But if the wicked turns from all his sins that he has committed, and keeps all my statutes, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live. He shall not die.​

You are basically deciding for yourself with your own opinion what you think God is right to do, that is shaky ground you are on.

Again - Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

and Revelation 20:14 (WEB):

(14) ... This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

It's nothing to do with my opinion of what God thinks, I'm simply quoting God's word. You don't seem to want to believe it!