The Pre-Trib Rapture

[jeffweeder]

Hi Jeff. You say that Matthew 24 and luke 21 are the same discourse? No. They are not the same discourse. What was the setting of Matthew 24 and what was the setting of Luke 21. Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 24 and who was Jesus talking to in Luke 21.

Matthew 24:15 is a future event. Luke 21:20 occured in 70 AD.

Hi Light,
Lets look at all 3

Mk 13
13 As He was coming out of the temple [grounds], one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, look what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 Jesus replied to him, “You see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left on another which will not be torn down!”

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be fulfilled?”

Matt 24
Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the [magnificent and massive] buildings of the temple. 2 And He said to them, “Do you see all these things? I assure you and most solemnly say to you, not one stone here will be left on another, which will not be torn down.”

3 While Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, and said, “Tell us, when will this [destruction of the temple] take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end (completion, consummation) of the age?”


Lk 21
As some were talking about the temple, that it was decorated with beautiful stones and consecrated offerings [of magnificent gifts of gold which were displayed on the walls and hung in the porticoes], He said, 6 “As for all these things which you see, the time will come when there will not be one stone left on another that will not be torn down.”
7 They asked Him, “Teacher, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to happen?”

Jesus had this conversation once, and gave it privately to Peter, James, John and Andrew....see mk 13:3.
Any one of these disciples would have conveyed the information to either Matthew, Mark or Luke to write it down.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Correct. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or more precisely Resurrection/Rapture is the true Bible doctrine. And all attacks against it are ultimately from the devil, who hates this truth. At the same time it is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME to try and convince the naysayers and scoffers.

I believe in the Any-Time Rapture viewpoint. This would fall under believing in a potential Pre-Trib Rapture. The Lord told us to look and watch for He will come in a time we will not expect. This is what will lead a believer to truly live more holy and righteous within the faith (in honoring His grace). For if we believe the Lord will come waaay later we can just get ourselves ready for living for the Lord then (and it can potentially lead to beating our fellow servants). But Jesus wants us to live for Him today and every day we live out our faith until the end of our faith (When we die). For the just shall live by faith.

In other words, we should be living for the Lord as if He is coming to take us today.

 

[The Light]

Hi Light,
Lets look at all 3

Mk 13
13 As He was coming out of the temple [grounds], one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, look what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 Jesus replied to him, “You see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left on another which will not be torn down!”

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be fulfilled?”

Matt 24
Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the [magnificent and massive] buildings of the temple. 2 And He said to them, “Do you see all these things? I assure you and most solemnly say to you, not one stone here will be left on another, which will not be torn down.”

3 While Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, and said, “Tell us, when will this [destruction of the temple] take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end (completion, consummation) of the age?”


Lk 21
As some were talking about the temple, that it was decorated with beautiful stones and consecrated offerings [of magnificent gifts of gold which were displayed on the walls and hung in the porticoes], He said, 6 “As for all these things which you see, the time will come when there will not be one stone left on another that will not be torn down.”
7 They asked Him, “Teacher, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to happen?”

Jesus had this conversation once, and gave it privately to Peter, James, John and Andrew....see mk 13:3.
Any one of these disciples would have conveyed the information to either Matthew, Mark or Luke to write it down.

Ok Jeff. Looking at all three, I will tell you that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are different views of the same event. However, take the time to find out the different setting and who Jesus was talking to in Luke. I think you need to go to the prior chapter or two for this information but not totally sure. In Mark, Jesus was talking privately to Peter and James and John and Andrew. Note that Luke is not there so Luke 21 is NOT the same discourse.

Something else you should notice. Remember when I said that Matthew 24 when fleeing from Jerusalem is a future event. Here is the proof.

Matthew 24 talks of false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilence. Then the verses say:
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Luke 21 talks of false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilence. Then the verses say:
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

As you should be able to see, Matthew 24 talks of a future event in Jerusalem and Luke 21 is talking about 70 AD.

 

[jeffweeder]

In Mark, Jesus was talking privately to Peter and James and John and Andrew. Note that Luke is not there so Luke 21 is NOT the same discourse

Matt and Mark were not there either. They all got the knowledge through either Peter, James, John or Andrew.
Jesus didnt appear to luke with a separate discourse.

The setting is the same for all 3. Jesus was leaving the Temple


[Something else you should notice. Remember when I said that Matthew 24 when fleeing from Jerusalem is a future event. Here is the proof.

Matthew 24 talks of false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilence. Then the verses say:
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Luke 21 talks of false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilence. Then the verses say:
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

As you should be able to see, Matthew 24 talks of a future event in Jerusalem and Luke 21 is talking about 70 AD]


I disagree. False Christs are also mentioned in Matt 24 v 24. All discourses begin and end the same way and everything in between.

I think its impossible that Matt is not addressing the imminent desolation of the temple and city and the warning to the people at the time to flee.

Matt Mark and Luke got their info from either Peter, James, John or Andrew. The 4 were all in agreement and of one mind..[/Quote]

 

[covenantee]

DECEIVERS

Matthew: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (24:4, 5).

Mark: “And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many” (13:5,6).

Luke: “And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them” (2 1:8).

We notice that all three accounts warn about deceivers. But Luke’s account explains WHEN these things would happen. Jesus Said: “And the time DRAWETH NEAR: go ye not therefore after them.” Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later! Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing near in their time! This is plain.

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes!

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour’s death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY — a statement which indicates that there were “many” of such in those days!

An Egyptian who “pretended to be a prophet” gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show “how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down.”

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were “a great number”, and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be “many.”

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another . . . And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold” (24:9-12).

Mark: “They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony . . . whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost . . . And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake” (13:9-13).

Luke: “They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony . . . I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.. . and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake” (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: “And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison” (verse 3). They were brought before “rulers” (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that “there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council “marveled” (verse 13). They were then commanded “not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus” (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name’s sake!

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities “laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison” (verse 18). Later they were brought “before the council” (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were “beaten” (verse 40). As they departed from the “council”, they rejoiced “that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name” (verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the “synagogue” that disputed with Steven. “And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke” (verses 9, 10). Persecution re suited and he was brought into the “council” and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Steven was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. “There was a great persecution against the church.” Christians were put in “prison”, but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into “prison.” But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were “imprisoned and beat in every synagogue.”

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay — though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul’s words even made Felix to “tremble.” In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian” (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name’s sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years — unmistakably fulfilled in every detail!

“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Mt. 24:11, 13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about “false prophets” that had risen and of “many” that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: “Many false prophets are gone out into the world” (l John 4:1). “Many deceivers are entered into the world” (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of “false apostles, deceitful workers” (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were “many . . . deceivers . . . who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not” (Titus 1:10, 11).

Great Prophecies of the Bible
Ralph Woodrow

 

[Taken]

The Deceived -
Before the Son of God was revealed...

Faithful Israel (the People) Believed:
In Almighty God and Gods future Messiah.

Unfaithful Gentiles (the People) Believed:
In men, celestial hosts, statues, etc. OTHER gods. <—Deceived

After the Son of God was revealed...
...Jesus’ Baptism, God telling Simon Barjona Who Jesus IS;

The Apostles Believed Jesus IS the Christ Messiah.

Enter Saul/ the persecutor, <- Deceived. Paul/ the Faithful.

The Apostles, were sent to teach the (Jews) in Jerusalem
Thereafter The Apostles, were sent to teach all the Tribes.
Paul the Apostles was sent to teach, Gentile kings, Jews, Gentiles.

The Apostles:
teaching OF Jesus the Messiah to :Jews / other Tribesmen’s.
...Of Jews and Tribesmen: some believed, some didn’t <— Deceived

Paul:
teaching Gentile kings, Jews, Gentiles
...Of Gentile kings, Jews, Gentiles; some believed, some didn’t <- Deceived

During the Days of the Apostles Teaching;
Other MEN, claimed and Taught:
Themselves TO BE the Christ Messiah<-> Those Listeners Deceived.

After the Days of the Apostles, they having Died/some Killed:
From those Historical Days...TO THESE DAYS...
Other MEN, claimed and Taught..AND CONTINUE...
Themselves TO BE the Christ Messiah <—>Deceive Those Congregants.

The DECEIVED...are historically, modernly WHO REJECT there IS A Messiah.

The DECEIVED...are historically, modernly WHO REJECT Jesus IS the Christ Messiah.

The DECEIVED...are historically, modernly WHO BELIEVE other men ARE the Christ Messiah.

* Historically and Modernly...MEN have persecuted and killed Other men,
FOR believing:
There is a Messiah.
There is no Messiah.
Jesus is the Christ Messiah.
Jesus is Not the Christ Messiah.
Other men Are the Christ Messiah.
Other men Are not the Christ Messiah.
Other men Are God.
Other men Are not God.

According TO Almighty God, He IS the Heavenly God, Creator; Jesus IS His Christ Messiah: Maker and Failure to Believe THAT, Renders the denying individual:
ARE: Divided From God and Gods Christ Messiah: Temporarily.
An individual Who Continues in their Denial until their OWN DEATH:
SHALL BE MADE: Separated From God and His Christ Messiah;
Forever.

The DIVIDED From, The DIVIDE With...WHO ARE ALIVE in the end days, Whereby Gods Anger Has Waxed Hot, Gods Anger, the Lambs Anger has BECOME INCREASED TO WRATH...
* Those Divided From and With:
SHALL SUFFER Gods and the Lambs and the Devils WRATH, during THOSE LAST DAYS; (a Seven Year period of last days)...

* Those Alive Divided From and With: SHALL BE Choosing TO:
WHOM:
they will DECLARE their OWN WORD of “COMMITTED BELIEF”.
* After their Word of DECLARATION of “COMMITTED BELIEF”...
* From or With...they shall be BODILY KILLED.

* Any individual WHO: fails to MAKE a Declaration OF their OWN WORD of “Committed belief”, and bodily dies...
* SHALL BE “committed unto Satan”.

Any man by His own Word Who Has ALREADY MADE his DECLARATION of Committed BELIEF TO and OF the Lord God AND Given His LIFE, Crucified WITH Christ...
IS ALREADY “BY GODS WORD” MADE anew creature, and SEPARATED WITH the Lord God FOR EVER...

And IS NOT SUBJECT TO:
Suffer the Lambs, the Devils or Gods Wrath during Gods Last Days Tribulation.

The Separated with the Lord God; SHALL BE “BY GODS WORD” called, lifted up OFF the face of the Earth...BEFORE:
The Lambs Wrath, the Devils Wrath, Gods Wrath
comes down from Heaven upon the inhabitants of the Earth.

BE NOT DECEIVED:
The Lord God Almighty’s Salvation was SENT to Earth 2,000 + years ago, and Offered for ALL men TO TAKE His Once and Forever Offered Gift of Salvation; according to Gods Order and Way.

TAKE His Offered Gift.....and you shall ESCAPE and BE DELIVERED FROM the End of days OF:
The Lambs coming Wrath,
The Devils coming Wrath,
Gods coming Wrath.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I believe in the Any-Time Rapture viewpoint. This would fall under believing in a potential Pre-Trib Rapture. The Lord told us to look and watch for He will come in a time we will not expect. This is what will lead a believer to truly live more holy and righteous within the faith (in honoring His grace). For if we believe the Lord will come waaay later we can just get ourselves ready for living for the Lord then (and it can potentially lead to beating our fellow servants). But Jesus wants us to live for Him today and every day we live out our faith until the end of our faith (When we die). For the just shall live by faith.

In other words, we should be living for the Lord as if He is coming to take us today.

In specific Scriptural teaching...
The Rapture is specific to MEN, who have DIED IN heartfully Committed BELIEF:
IN God and IN His Christ Messiah IS Jesus.
BEFORE, Gods end of Days Tribulation.

THEY, ^ are new creatures, body, soul, spirit...
THEY, ^ are lifted up off the face of the earth...Called, Redeemed, Resurrected...BY the Lord, IN their new body, restored soul, quickened spirit: and WITH the Lord Forever.
BEFORE
the last days of Gods Tribulation of Suffering and Chaos;
OF:
The Lambs Wrath, the Devils Wrath, Gods Wrath.

 

[The Light]

Matt and Mark were not there either. They all got the knowledge through either Peter, James, John or Andrew.
Jesus didnt appear to luke with a separate discourse.

The setting is the same for all 3. Jesus was leaving the Temple


[Something else you should notice. Remember when I said that Matthew 24 when fleeing from Jerusalem is a future event. Here is the proof.

Matthew 24 talks of false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilence. Then the verses say:
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Luke 21 talks of false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines and pestilence. Then the verses say:
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

As you should be able to see, Matthew 24 talks of a future event in Jerusalem and Luke 21 is talking about 70 AD]


I disagree. False Christs are also mentioned in Matt 24 v 24. All discourses begin and end the same way and everything in between.

I think its impossible that Matt is not addressing the imminent desolation of the temple and city and the warning to the people at the time to flee.

Matt Mark and Luke got their info from either Peter, James, John or Andrew. The 4 were all in agreement and of one mind..

[/QUOTE]
That's pretty logical.

But the big problem is

Matthew 24
9 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Did Jesus return immediately after the tribulation of those days.? For you to be correct, Jesus has returned in the clouds and sent His angels to gather the elect. Has that happened? If it hasn't happened, you are incorrect.

 

[jeffweeder]

That's pretty logical.

But the big problem is

Matthew 24
9 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Did Jesus return immediately after the tribulation of those days.? For you to be correct, Jesus has returned in the clouds and sent His angels to gather the elect. Has that happened? If it hasn't happened, you are incorrect.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Light
I addressed this in post 3071

 

[The Light]

Thanks Light
I addressed this in post 3071[/QUOTE]
Sorry I missed this, Jeff. Now I understand where you are coming from. Let's throw another stone in the game. If I am following along correctly to what you are saying, I believe you are saying that the great tribulation happened in 70 AD.

Now we have this verse in Daniel 12 that happens at the time of the end.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The great tribulation happens at the time of the end not 70 AD.

 

[jeffweeder]

Thanks Light
I addressed this in post 3071

Sorry I missed this, Jeff. Now I understand where you are coming from. Let's throw another stone in the game. If I am following along correctly to what you are saying, I believe you are saying that the great tribulation happened in 70 AD.
[/QUOTE]

No. It just began in AD 70.
Not only does it affect the Jews but also all the nations.

The GT started but did not conclude in 70 AD.
It starts off as wrath and vengeance toward the Jewish people and ends up going global.

Matt 24
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth [there will be] distress (trouble and anguish) of nations in bewilderment and perplexity [without resources, left wanting, embarrassed, in doubt, not knowing which way to turn] at the roaring (the echo) of the tossing of the sea,

26 Men swooning away or expiring with fear and dread and apprehension and expectation of the things that are coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken and caused to totter.

27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with great (transcendent and overwhelming) power and [all His kingly] glory (majesty and splendor).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hi Jeff. You say that Matthew 24 and luke 21 are the same discourse? No. They are not the same discourse. What was the setting of Matthew 24 and what was the setting of Luke 21. Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 24 and who was Jesus talking to in Luke 21.

Matthew 24:15 is a future event. Luke 21:20 occured in 70 AD.

Are you saying you believe that Jesus gave the discourse recorded in Matthew 24 on a completely different day than He gave the discourse recorded in Luke 21? What evidence do you have to back that up? That would mean the disciples on two separate occasions marveled at the temple buildings and then asked Him when they would be destroyed. How can that be? In case you're not understanding what I'm saying, let me illustrate.

Matthew 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Luke 21:5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.” 7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?” 8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.” 10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

The similarities between these passages are undeniable. You think that on two separate occasions, the disciples marveled at the temple buildings with Jesus then telling them that they would be destroyed? How can that be? Surely, they would not have forgotten that He had already told them the temple buildings would be destroyed, so He wouldn't need to tell them that again. There's no question that Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 are speaking of the same thing. And then in each case it has the disciples asking Jesus when that would happen (the temple buildings being destroyed) with Matthew adding another question about His coming and the end of the age. Matthew probably wanted to make it clear that Jesus talked about two different events in His discourse, so that's why He separated and worded the questions the way he did. And in each passage Jesus proceeds to tell them to watch out that they are not deceived and they would hear of wars and rumors of wars and such, but that these things would not mean that the end of the age was near.

With all of that in mind, how can you possibly think that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are not the same discourse? They clearly are the same. They did not ask Jesus when the temple buildings would be destroyed on two separate occasions and Jesus did not tell them to watch out to not be deceived while saying there would be wars and rumors of wars on two separate occasions. Luke worded some things differently only because his primary audience was Gentiles. That's why he spelled things out to them in Luke 21:20 while Matthew, whose primary audience was Jews, told them to reference the prophecy that Daniel wrote about in order to understand when they should flee, which the Gentiles Luke was writing to would have known nothing about. So, for Luke to reference the abomination of desolation prophesied by Daniel and to say "let the reader understand" to the Gentiles would have made no sense.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Gods First Tribulation ...
Noah lift up above the Earth.
Noah in the clouds of the lower heavens.

Gods Second and Last Tribulation ...
In Christ caught up above the Earth.
In Christ in the clouds of the lower heavens.

More mistakes in red.

Isa 54:9 shows the flood was God's wrath. The word used for wrath in the KJV: qatsaph
Meaning: angry (21), became angry (1), became...angry (1), become wrathful (1), enraged (1), furious (3), provoked (1), provoked him to wrath (1), provoked me to wrath (1), provoked the to wrath (2), wrath (1), wrathful (1).

Tribulation is persecution: Thlipsis
Never God's wrath, anger, furiousness, provocation to anger or other means.
It means: oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, trouble

Romans
5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience;
8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Otherwise, According to @Taken, Paul was saying we glory in God's wrath and God's wrath works patience.
Otherwise, According to @Taken, Paul was saying Shall God's wrath separate us from his love? Huh?
Otherwise, According to @Taken, Paul was saying The Church rejoices in God's wrath.

Now that doesn't make sense, does it? Tribulation doesn't = God's wrath

 

[WPM]

No. It just began in AD 70.
Not only does it affect the Jews but also all the nations.

The GT started but did not conclude in 70 AD.
It starts off as wrath and vengeance toward the Jewish people and ends up going global.

Well put!

 

[The Light]

More mistakes in red.

Isa 54:9 shows the flood was God's wrath. The word used for wrath in the KJV: qatsaph
Meaning: angry (21), became angry (1), became...angry (1), become wrathful (1), enraged (1), furious (3), provoked (1), provoked him to wrath (1), provoked me to wrath (1), provoked the to wrath (2), wrath (1), wrathful (1).

Tribulation is persecution: Thlipsis
Never God's wrath, anger, furiousness, provocation to anger or other means.
It means: oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, trouble

Romans
5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience;
8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Otherwise, According to @Taken, Paul was saying we glory in God's wrath and God's wrath works patience.
Otherwise, According to @Taken, Paul was saying Shall God's wrath separate us from his love? Huh?
Otherwise, According to @Taken, Paul was saying The Church rejoices in God's wrath.

Now that doesn't make sense, does it? Tribulation doesn't = God's wrath

You are 100% correct in this. Tribulation is not wrath. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Your error is thinking that there is not a pretribulation rapture.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are 100% correct in this. Tribulation is not wrath. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Your error is thinking that there is not a pretribulation rapture.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture

When Jesus returns in the second coming the resurrection of all takes place, as the world is burned by the Lord's fire in judgement (The End)

 

[WPM]

You are 100% correct in this. Tribulation is not wrath. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Your error is thinking that there is not a pretribulation rapture.

Where do you get Pretrib in the Bible?

 

[Taken]

More mistakes in red.

No.......simply more of YOUR accusations.

Gen 6:
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring (ACTION...TRIBULATION) a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Ex 22:
[24] And my wrath (EMOTION of STRONG ANGER) shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Deut. 4
[3] Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baal-peor: for all the men that followed Baal-peor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed (ACTION - TRIBULATION) them from among you.

[30] When thou art in tribulation, (Gods sending Tribulation) and all these things are come upon thee, (THEN)even in the latter days, (LAST DAYs of Gods Tribulations) if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
[31] (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, (IF thou turn to the LORD THY God) nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

2 Pet 2:
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
[6] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Matt 24;
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 2:
[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Your accusation are of none effect.
God Gets Angry.
When Gods Anger WAXES HOT, it is called Wrath.
When Gods Anger Reaches Wrath...

HE HAS WARNED MEN, from days of OLD through the NT...
IN DAYS OF OLD MEN EXPERIENCED The Result of Gods WRATH.
God KILLED THEM WITH THE EARTH!! <—> Gods Tribulation!

God SENT, God BROUGHT upon the World, Gods Tribulations...
Water from Heaven, Water from Under the Earth, Water, water, water...
Gods Tribulation UPON THE EARTH...Destroyed the Earth and ALL Inhabitants on the face of the Earth.
...uh...EARTH IS DAY LAND! WATER covering the EARTH, is NOT DRY LAND..
The whole Earth was DESTROYED, no LONGER DRY.
...Men CAN NOT BREATH UNDER WATER....duh they died.

Anger IS an Emotion.
Wrath IS an INCREASED Emotion of Anger.
Gods ACTS, via HIS POWER, IS God Sending, Causing, Bringing UPON the Earth and its inhabitants.......DESTRUCTION and DEATH.

Men have Been WARNED, What was SHALL again Occur...
God will Get Angry.
Gods Anger will WAX Hot.
When Gods Anger turns to WRATH,
He WILL AGAIN Cause, Send, Bring down His Tribulations UPON the Earth AND it’s inhabitants without the SEAL of God in their Foreheads.
Destruction and Death!

It matters not one iota to me, of your this and that equals this and that,
Your understanding of anger, wrath, tribulations...
Your lack of understanding the DIFFERENCES between...
Anger, wrath, tribulations “OF MEN AGAINST MEN” and
“OF GOD AGAINST UNGODLY MEN”..

God gets angry, Gods increased anger is His Wrath, God routinely reveals His Power for men to see and God SHALL send His TRIBULATIONS upon the earth, expressly to Destroy and Kill.

I am well aware, God controls the Weather, God Controls the Seas, the Mountains and causes Winds, Turbulences, the Earth to quake, Lightening to strike, in diverse places, The Sun to scorch and melt, on and on FOR MEN routinely Observe the reminding EFFECTS of Gods POWER...

The WATER of Gods FLOOD Tribulation came upon men over a period of time....increasing....increasing....Until all men upon the face of the Earth WERE DEAD!

Gods NEXT Tribulation is nothing new. It shall come upon men over a period of time....increasing...increasing...Until all men upon the face of the earth.......WITHOUT the SEAL of God written in their forehead.... ARE DEAD.

During Gods FIRST Great Tribulation GOD CAUSED....8 were Saved...LIFTED UP off the face of the Earth ... TO a holy Place ... Above the Earth, Above the mountain tops, IN the clouds of the lower heavens!

(IF you recall...Heaven is a holy Place....High heavens, Gods Estate; Mid heavens Holy Angels Estate; Lower Heavens in the clouds, where Fallen Angels, and saved and unsaved men have traveled for decades)

Again in the NEXT Great Tribulation GOD SHALL CAUSE...FEW will Be Saved...LIFTED UP off the face of the Earth...TO a holy Place ... Above the Earth, Above the mountain tops, IN the clouds of the lower heavens.

And DURING the course of Gods NEXT Great Tribulation(S)...MEN on the face of the Earth, will be Deciding to Believe, Confess Belief, and WILLINGLY Die at the hand of Satan, FOR their believe IN the Lord God...OR Fear Satan’s Sword and Armies that shall threaten to KILL THEIR BODY’S...and make their allegiance TO him.

Nothing new under the sun...What was, shall be again.
Doesn’t matter IF you believe it.
Doesn’t matter WHAT you call it.
IF you ARE ON the EARTH, WHEN Gods Great Tribulations BEGIN...it IS BECAUSE...YOU rejected TO TAKE and RECEIVE Christ Jesus’ Offering of SALVATION...while still alive in your flesh body...and NOT BE SUBJECT TO Gods Wrath against you, and Gods Tribulations Upon you, and Gods Power to LIFT YOU UP off the face of the Earth.

FREEWILL... To take and receive Gods Offering by, through, of Christ Jesus ... or NOT.

And that which I have Freely chosen, and taken, and have...has NOT one iota to do with your choices, your beliefs, your accusations.

 

[Timtofly]

Not so. I am in good company.

Matthew Henry says:

Then shall be great tribulation; then when the measure of iniquity is full; then when the servants of God are sealed and secured, then come the troubles; nothing can be done against Sodom till Lot is entered into Zoar, and then look for fire and brimstone immediately. There shall be great tribulation. Great, indeed, when within the city plague and famine raged, and (worse than either) faction and division, so that every man's sword was against his fellow; then and there it was that the hands of the pitiful women flayed their own children. Without the city was the Roman army ready to swallow them up, with a particular rage against them, not only as Jews, but as rebellious Jews. War was the only one of the three sore judgment s that David excepted against; but that was it by which the Jews were ruined; and there were famine and pestilence in extremity besides. Josephus's History of the Wars of the Jews, has in it more tragical passages than perhaps any history whatsoever.

(1.) It was a desolation unparalleled, such as was not since the beginning of the world, nor ever shall be. Many a city and kingdom has been made desolate, but never any with a desolation like this. Let not daring sinners think that God has done his worst, he can heat the furnace seven times and yet seven times hotter, and will, when he sees greater and still greater abominations. The Romans, when they destroyed Jerusalem, were degenerated from the honour and virtue of their ancestors, which had made even their victories easy to the vanquished. And the wilfulness and obstinacy of the Jews themselves contributed much to the increase of the tribulation. No wonder that the ruin of Jerusalem was an unparalleled ruin, when the sin of Jerusalem was an unparalleled sin-even their crucifying Christ. The nearer any people are to God in profession and privileges, the greater and heavier will his judgment s be upon them, if they abuse those privileges, and be false to that profession, Amos 3:2.

(2.) It was a desolation which, if it should continue long, would be intolerable, so that no flesh should be saved, v. 22. So triumphantly would death ride, in so many dismal shapes, and with such attendants, that there would be no escaping, but, first or last, all would be cut off. He that escaped one sword, would fall by another, Isaiah 24:17-18. The computation which Josephus makes of those that were slain in several places, amounts to above two millions. No flesh shall be saved; he doth not say, "No soul shall be saved," for the destruction of the flesh may be for the saving of the spirit in the day of the Lord Jesus; but temporal lives will be sacrificed so profusely, that one would think, if it last awhile, it would make a full end.

But here is one word of comfort in the midst of all this terror-that for the elects' sake these days shall be shortened, not made shorter than what God had determined (for that which is determined, shall be poured upon the desolate, Daniel 9:27), but shorter than what he might have decreed, if he had dealt with them according to their sins; shorter than what the enemy designed, who would have cut all off, if God who made use of them to serve his own purpose, had not set bounds to their wrath; shorter than one who judged by human probabilities would have imagined. Note,

[1.] In times of common calamity God manifests his favour to the elect remnant; his jewels, which he will then make up; his peculiar treasure, which he will secure when the lumber is abandoned to the spoiler.

[2.] The shortening of calamities is a kindness God often grants for the elects' sake. Instead of complaining that our afflictions last so long, if we consider our defects, we shall see reason to be thankful that they do not last always; when it is bad with us, it becomes us to say, "Blessed be God that it is no worse; blessed be God that it is not hell, endless and remediless misery." It was a lamenting church that said, It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed; and it is for the sake of the elect, lest their spirit should fail before them, if he should contend for ever, and lest they should be tempted to put forth, if not their heart, yet their hand, to iniquity.

And now comes in the repeated caution, which was opened before, to take heed of being ensnared by false Christs, and false prophets; (v. 23, etc.), who would promise them deliverance, as the lying prophets in Jeremiah's time (Jeremiah 14:13; 23:16-17; 27:16; 28:2), but would delude them. Times of great trouble are times of great temptation, and therefore we have need to double our guard then. If they shall say, Here is a Christ, or there is one, that shall deliver us from the Romans, do not heed them, it is all but talk; such a deliverance is not to be expected, and therefore not such a deliverer.

Adam Clarke says:

[For then shall be great tribulation] No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews:-rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. Luke 21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.

1. These were the days in which all the calamities predicted by Moses, Joel, Daniel, and other prophets, as well as those predicted by our Saviour, met in one common center, and were fulfilled in the most terrible manner on that generation.

2. These were the days of vengeance in another sense, as if God's judgment s had certain periods and revolutions; for it is remarkable that the temple was burned by the Romans in the same month, and on the same day of the month, on which it had been burned by the Babylonians. See Josephus, War, b. 6 c. 4.

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown says:

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Such language is not unusual in the Old Testament with reference to tremendous calamities. But it is matter of literal fact, that there was crowded into the period of the Jewish War an amount and complication of suffering perhaps unparalleled; as the narrative of Josephus, examined closely and arranged under different heads, would show.

Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke did not live through 2 World Wars.

However great 70 AD was and also the 2 World Wars, will not compare to the final harvest and Satan's 42 months. Which by the way you claim you will live through, unless of course you pass away first. Sounds like you would have preferred to have endured and lived inside Jerusalem in 70AD. That is the same claim as post trib views. Living through and in Jerusalem during this time of great trouble.

 

[Timtofly]

Your response is Laughable!

My post shows Jesus Christ returning in fire and final judgment (The End)

There won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus, it will be (The End)!

Jesus returns prior to the AoD. Read Matthew 13.