Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Can you read?
“He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” (1 John 5:12)
What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God
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Can you read?
“He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” (1 John 5:12)
One of my trinitarian professors in college referred to people who believe what Jack believes as “Triunitarians”.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
You don't even know that Name is singular?
Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
It made a lasting impression on me.
It’s a unique way of saying “sailing under a false flag.”
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
What do you mean, "had to be God"? That's like asking why the car in my garage had to be a car. The thing is, God said His Son is God.
You repeatedly demand a verse that answers a question that is patently ridiculous and deliberately evasive. You believe you are being clever. It isn't clever to come to the Bible with a preconceived opinion and a worldview that denies the obvious. There's barely a page in all of scripture that doesn't reveal Jesus. The holy Spirit inspired the prophets, and the holy Spirit did what the holy Spirit always does...
KJV John 5:39
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me .
KJV John 15:26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
KJV Romans 8:1-9
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
That's not what I heard..;)
"..a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” (Matthew 17:5)
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Probably, though scripture doesn't say if they were created first before the earth, etc. Also some stars are so far away that their light wouldn't arrive here to be seen by us if only created 6,000 years ago. But God did create our sun and moon that first week. It just mentions that it is God that created the stars also (just not that week). If not and he was created during that first week along with the other angels, he didn't have a lot of time to gain a third of the angels to revere him to follow him. Satan committed his first sin in the Garden of Eden along with Adam and Eve.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
The original meaning of Trinitarian was not three persons, but three substances of one God. That is how humans are made in their image: spirit, soul, body. Father is Spirit; The Holy Spirit is soul, and Jesus is the embodiment of the Godhead.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
He was right. It is in Hebrews 1.
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
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Dropship
Well-Known Member
When Jesus was 12 he discussed things in the temple, then went home with his parents-
"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" (Luke 21:41-52)
so if Jesus WAS God as some claim, why would he need to "grow in wisdom and stature"?..;)
"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" (Luke 21:41-52)
so if Jesus WAS God as some claim, why would he need to "grow in wisdom and stature"?..;)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
KJV Hebrews 1:8-10
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
This is a bold statement coming from a Messianic Jew, that in Christendom we don't believe Jesus is a "human person?"
Act 2:29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne;
Act 2:31 he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left in Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
Mat_10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Luk_12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
confess. , Idiom F/S 828, "To confess" is used of abiding in the faith, and walking according to truth. For other instances of this idiom see *Rom_10:9; *Rom_10:10, 1Jn_4:15, lit. confess in me. Vincent states "The idea is that of confessing Christ out of a state of oneness with him. ’Abide in me, and being in me, confess me.’ It implies identification of the confessor with the confessed, and thus takes confession out of the category of mere formal or verbal acknowledgment. ’Not every one that saith unto me, Lord! Lord! shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ The true confessor of Christ is one whose faith rests in him. Observe that this gives great force to the corresponding clause, in which Christ places himself in a similar relation with those whom he confesses" (Word Pictures in the New Testament, vol. 1, p. 61). Mat_7:21, Jer_9:3, %**Luk_12:9, **Joh_17:23, Act_24:14, Rom_8:1 note. **Rom_10:9-10; Rom_14:11, 1Co_12:3 note. Php_2:11, 1Jn_4:15, Rev_3:8.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might be led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit.
confess. or, may confess. FS108B21, +Mat_10:32, May confess translates homologēsēs, an aorist tense active voice subjunctive mood verb which means to say the same thing or to be in agreement with God (Lavender NT, fn c). 1Ki_8:35, Psa_40:10, +Mat_10:32 g. Luk_12:8, Joh_9:22, 1Ti_6:12, 2Ti_2:12, *1Jn_4:2; *1Jn_4:15.
The Resurrection of Christ
1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also ye are saved; I make known, I say, in what words I preached it unto you, if ye hold it fast, except ye believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve;
1Co 15:6 then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep;
1Co 15:7 then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles;
1Co 15:8 and last of all, as unto one born out of due time, he appeared to me also.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11 Whether then it be I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
Are we in agreement @Matthias?
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
Php 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;
Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If you cant "see" it, no one can help you.
Being in the form of God (ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων)
Being. Not the simple είναι to be, but stronger, denoting being which is from the beginning. See on Jas_2:15. It has a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present. Here appropriate to the preincarnate being of Christ, to which the sentence refers. In itself it does not imply eternal, but only prior existence. Form (μορφή). We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape. The word is used in its philosophic sense, to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character. Thus it is distinguished from σχῆμα fashion, comprising that which appeals to the senses and which is changeable. Μορφή form is identified with the essence of a person or thing: σχῆμα fashion is an accident which may change without affecting the form. For the manner in which this difference is developed in the kindred verbs, see on Mat_17:2.
As applied here to God, the word is intended to describe that mode in which the essential being of God expresses itself. We have no word which can convey this meaning, nor is it possible for us to formulate the reality. Form inevitably carries with it to us the idea of shape. It is conceivable that the essential personality of God may express itself in a mode apprehensible by the perception of pure spiritual intelligences; but the mode itself is neither apprehensible nor conceivable by human minds.
This mode of expression, this setting of the divine essence, is not identical with the essence itself, but is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression, answering to it in every particular. It is the perfect expression of a perfect essence. It is not something imposed from without, but something which proceeds from the very depth of the perfect being, and into which that being perfectly unfolds, as light from fire. To say, then, that Christ was in the form of God, is to say that He existed as essentially one with God. The expression of deity through human nature (Php_2:7) thus has its background in the expression of deity as deity in the eternal ages of God's being. Whatever the mode of this expression, it marked the being of Christ in the eternity before creation. As the form of God was identified with the being of God, so Christ, being in the form of God, was identified with the being, nature, and personality of God.
Vincent.
But Imams would deny that the morphe is identified with the Being, nature and personality of YHVH, Shabir Sheik and many Orthodox prominent rabbis...we have in our possession the work of scholars, who can refute those who don't believe the Jesus can be both God, and Man.
Most claim Jesus Christ is only "divine"...but then an apple can taste divine, food can be divine, and place Jesus in that category
What do you say who the Jesus is?
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Maybe the diagram in this link will help. List of Pro-Trinity/Deity of Christ Bible Passages - Berean Patriot
Does it matter?
On one of the most recent discussion forums I was on before becoming a member here, the leading defender of the Trinity rejected the Shield of the Trinity. He insisted that it does not depict the Trinity.
Did the trinitarians on that forum still accept that person as a trinitarian? Absolutely.
The Trinity could be whatever you wanted it to be. The details of the Trinity were negotiable.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
RLT63
Well-Known Member
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