Carl Emerson
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Jesus had to be God because God gave a curse of death with the Law that could only be broken by God himself.
What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God
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A “mere man” is a man. The mere man / man Christ Jesus did. 2 Corinthians doesn’t deny that. Your rationale does.
The historical trinitarian response is the sentiment you expressed. That’s why Jesus is not a human person (a human person is “a mere man”) in trinitarian theology.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
He is unique among men. Who else was born of a virgin and lived a sinless life? He is a man 100% and John 1 tells us he was with God and he was God.
4-7 but possibly 11:
I may have missed a couple of dozen or hundred maybe or billions when God is in all. Hard to say how many selves, maybe also 1 and 3 at the same time. Do I get partial credit if I include the preferred answer?
- God the Father
- God the HS
- God the son, in his divine nature.
- God the son, in his human nature.
- S1
- S2
- S3
- S4
- S5
- S6
- S7, the 7 Spirits of God referenced in Revelations.
- God of Grace
- God of Love
- God of Mercy
- God of Justice
- THE LORD OF HEAVEN’S ARMIES.
That’s an interesting answer. I’ve personally never read any trinitarian writer, or spoken with any trinitarian, who gave that response to the question. Perhaps you have.
Trinitarianism “officially” breaks down into two camps* on the question. One trinitarian camp says the Trinity is a single self. The other trinitarian camp says the Trinity is three selfs.
* There is, technically, a third camp. Those in the third trinitarian camp say they don’t know - some in this camp add that they don’t care - how many selfs the Trinity is. This camp is, in my experience, Joe Average Trinitarian. The question for this camp is analogous to “how many angels can dance on the head of pin?”
He certainly is a unique man / human person.
How many persons do you see in John’s prologue (1:1-5) to his Gospel?
Which translation(s] of the Bible do you routinely read?
(When I was a Southern Baptist I was KJVO).
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If you mean satan....he is never called “Lucifer” in the scriptures.....just to be clear.
The correct translation of the Hebrew word heh·lelʹ is “shining one.” Heh·lelʹ is not a name or a title of satan, but a term describing the boastful position taken by Babylon’s dynasty of kings of the line of Nebuchadnezzar. (Isaiah 14:12) The kings of Babylon were tools of the devil, its “king” and their actions reflected his own ambitious desire revealed in Eden. So Jehovah came to the salvation of his people by restoring them to their land, until the real Seed of promise should come. (Ezra 1:1-6) Even though they failed so many times to uphold Jehovah’s Sovereignty, he kept them in existence in order to fulfill his promise.
I believe that you have that taking place way too early. It is in Revelation (things that were to take place in the Lord’s Day) that the casting of satan along with his demonic hordes to this earth down to the earth, takes place. This of course is in line with satan and his demons having free access to both heaven and earth until the time of Christ’s enthronement as king. (Daniel 7:13-14) only then was he confined to the earth. (Revelation 12:7-12) Now we see the effects of that confinement in this “time of the end”.
What the devil had a good grasp of was the worship that humans would give to Yahweh. He wanted some of that for himself. He even tried to get Jesus to worship him...remember?
When he suggested that the woman could “be like God” if she ate from the forbidden fruit, he was actually talking about himself. Satan was an appointed guardian cherub in the garden of Eden, privy to all that was taking place with the creation of all things. He was part of the angelic host that applauded the creation of the universe and the preparation of our earth for habitation by “souls” of infinite variety. As a once faithful angel, he got carried away with his own magnificence, as stated by Ezekiel when God addressed the King of Tyre. What he said was aimed clearly at the devil...whom this earthly king was emulating.
“You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering. . . . .On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . . Your heart was haughty because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I threw you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.” (Ezekiel 28:12-15,17 - NASB)
Once the devil had successfully separated the human race from God, they were his to do with as he wished. We have the example of Job to see what the devil’s agenda is....and what he is capable of doing to humankind.....and with God’s permission. But we have to know why God has permitted the devil to wreak such havoc in the world....and to allow him relative freedom to do his best to become mankind’s “god” and ruler...to their detriment. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
Whose world are we living in? (1 John 5:19)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Or you can read the scriptures as they are written and see him create a counterfeit religious empire that encompasses the whole world, and they all believe the same lies.....the devil is a deceiver and those deceived don’t know that they are.....it’s why we must never take any belief for granted....find its source. Is it really biblical or a suggestion that it is? Can you trace its origins back to Babylon?
It’s true, because there are clear and unambiguous statements even from Jesus himself to establish it. But since there is no clear and unequivocal statements that Jesus is “God” himself, or even an equal part of him, that is where we need to exercise caution because that means that it is a suggestion grafted over ambiguous verses in the Bible that were never written to establish a trinity. Even the church who introduced this doctrine admits that it is not scriptural.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia stated: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
Not to many of us here who see no such thing in anything he wrote.
John never mentioned a trinity because it didn’t exist in Judaism, nor was it ever mentioned except in paganism, when he lived in the first century. The first Christians had no trinity belief, any more than they believed that Mary was the “Mother of God”. They had no belief in hellfire either.
Can such an important doctrine about the very nature of the God they claimed to worship, be so obscure as to NOT be introduced into official church teachings until over 300 years after Christ was executed? Doesn’t that raise some red flags? It did to me.
If the apostles, who were taught by Jesus himself stated collectively.....
“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 - NASB)
We have to accept what is clearly stated, not fall back on those ambiguous verses to prop up beliefs because we have been led to believe that they are true.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I like the NKJV but when just reading I have been reading the NLT but find places where they interpreted scripture instead of just translating. But it's an easy read. I have several versions and 2 interlinears. The modern versions omit verses, because scholars prefer the Alexandrian texts. I don't always agree with the decisions the scholars made but I'm not a King James only advocate. I like to know what was omitted and why.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Why do you assume that because people disagree with the majority view that they must in be a cult?
Was Jesus a cult leader? Would you have followed him? He taught that the religious establishment of his day was completely corrupted by “the traditions of men” and that their worship was “in vain” (Matthew 15:7-9).....history repeats because people do not consult the lessons from the past to assess the events of the present....and that will affect their future.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Yes the question is far but my point is not harsh. It is rude (if not harsh) to sweep aside a question and ask one of your own. Why not answer the OP's question AND THEN pose one of your own? That seems more conversational.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
He is 100% man. You got that right. However, John 1 says nothing about Jesus being God. It's just not there no matter how many times you assert it.
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
Reading verse 2 right after 1 is a whole other understanding.
2 The Same was in the beginning with God.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
So what is verse two saying the same was in the beginning with God.
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RLT63
Well-Known Member
RLT63
Well-Known Member
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
Yup, the Word was God and the same was with God, verse 1 and 2
RLT63
Well-Known Member
It's one of the clearest passages in the Bible
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