RLT63
Well-Known Member
I say you keep hanging on to that one verse and ignore all the others that confirm the deity of Christ.
John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
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RLT63
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Matthew 1:23 Explain this verse. Jesus is "God with us"
Philippians 2:5 and 6 "Though he was God" or "existing in the form of God"
Jhn 5:18
¶
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God
Rev 2:8
¶
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
As in Revelation 1:17 and 18 Jesus says he is the first and the last
Jesus is prayed to in the Bible;
Act 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
God purchased The Church with his own blood:
Act 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Rev 22:12
¶
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
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"There you go again, defying Christ in claiming his words glorify him in the highest possible way. Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. John 8:54"
"All prophets speak for God."
"Jesus confessed he is not speaking on his own authority."
"'Oneness' between God and Jesus is supposed to mean he is God but 'oneness' with us?"
"Jesus never even suggested he be worshipped."
Grace and peace to all.
No one is making any such claim. Jesus, in His time on earth, Wrangler, had set aside His glory, even His position as the Second Person of the triune God for man's sake, as Paul says in Philippians 2. This is not to say that He didn't have it, but that He didn't use it ~ He put Himself fully into the position of man before the Father for our sake, to reconcile man to God. In the second half of the very verse you cite here, John 8:54, Jesus says it is the Father Who glorifies Him. And at the end of His public ministry, He calls on the Father ~ in absolute confidence ~ to restore to Him the glory He (Jesus) had with Him (the Father) from all eternity (John 17:5). So yes, Jesus, as a man, did not glorify Himself, else His glory would have been nothing. Who is to be glorified besides God? No one. As we read in Revelation:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing! ... To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” [Revelation 5:12-13]
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” [Revelation 7:12]
And as you well know ~ or should, anyway ~ God, through Isaiah, says:"I am the LORD; that is My name; My glory I give to no other." [Isaiah 42:8]
Was Jesus terribly mistaken in John 8:54 when He said it is the Father Who glorifies Him? Was Jesus calling on God in an utterly empty fashion in John 17:5 to give to glorify Him in His own presence with the glory that He, Jesus, had with Him, the Father, before the world existed? Those who deny the deity of Christ Jesus would have it so, for sure, but such is not the case.
"All prophets speak for God."
Well, they don't "speak for God," but relay God's words to His people. And as we read in Hebrews:
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." [Hebrews 1:1-2]
"Jesus confessed he is not speaking on his own authority."
Yes, but to interpret this in such a way as to say that He had no authority is ridiculous. Those to whom He spoke in His day (as well as those who "hear" Him now) certainly regarded (regard) Him as authoritative.
"'Oneness' between God and Jesus is supposed to mean he is God but 'oneness' with us?"
Jesus said "The Father and I are one," clearly enunciating the perfect unity of and communion between the Father and the Son and the oneness of substance of the two. So here yet again, it is a pluralistic singularity. And this brings up a yet-unanswered point: I still have yet to hear from any "Jesus is not God" person an honest reconciliation between the truth that Jesus is both the Son of God and the Son of Man. So, I'll answer it myself. :)
Given the church’s confession, historically, of the dual nature of Jesus ~ that He has a divine nature and a human nature ~ the tendency is for folks to assume that when Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of Man, that He was speaking of His human nature, and when He’s referred to as the Son of God, He was being referred to in His divine nature. But it’s not as simple as that, because both of these titles have within them elements that refer to His deity and to His humanity.
The title “Son of God” is given, in the first instance in Scripture, to those who manifest obedience to the Father. Sonship is defined predominately, not in biological terms here, but in terms of being in one accord or submissive towards, and so on. Jesus Himself, in His discussions with the Pharisees ~ who claimed to be “sons of Abraham” ~ rebuked them and said, “You are the children of Satan. You are the children of the one whom you obey.” The “Son of God” also contains, in certain references in the New Testament, clear indications of Jesus’ eternal sonship and His deity. But this title, “Son of Man” is used so often in the New Testament, and all but three times that it occurs in the New Testament, it comes from the lips of Jesus. And it refers back to the Old Testament vision that was written down by the prophet Daniel, where Daniel had a vision into the interior of the heavenly court of God, where he saw the Ancient of Days enthroned, and the judgment was set. And to the Ancient of Days comes “one like unto a son of man,” Who then is given the authority to judge the world. So that in the first instance, the Son of Man is a heavenly Person ~ a heavenly Person Who descends to this world, Whose principal role in His visitation to this earth is that of the heavenly judge. And then He returns to the presence of God in His ascension. Jesus, of course, having been crucified, buried, and resurrected, as ascended to the right hand and is seated on the throne in the power of God. As Jesus said, “No one ascends to the Father except He who has first descended from Him.”
We tend to think that Jesus’ calling Himself the Son of Man was an expression of humility, when, in fact, it was a claim to divine authority. When He heals on the Sabbath day and is rebuked by His enemies, He said, “I did this that you may know that the Son of the Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” And when He forgives sins and creates an uproar from His contemporaries who said “Only God has the authority to forgive sins,” Jesus said, “I did this that you might know that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” So, again ~ and again, and again, and again ~ this title, “Son of Man,” that Jesus uses for Himself, is a highly exalted title.
And by the same token, even the title "Son of God" is much higher and much more exalted than some would have it.
Given the church’s confession, historically, of the dual nature of Jesus ~ that He has a divine nature and a human nature ~ the tendency is for folks to assume that when Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of Man, that He was speaking of His human nature, and when He’s referred to as the Son of God, He was being referred to in His divine nature. But it’s not as simple as that, because both of these titles have within them elements that refer to His deity and to His humanity.
The title “Son of God” is given, in the first instance in Scripture, to those who manifest obedience to the Father. Sonship is defined predominately, not in biological terms here, but in terms of being in one accord or submissive towards, and so on. Jesus Himself, in His discussions with the Pharisees ~ who claimed to be “sons of Abraham” ~ rebuked them and said, “You are the children of Satan. You are the children of the one whom you obey.” The “Son of God” also contains, in certain references in the New Testament, clear indications of Jesus’ eternal sonship and His deity. But this title, “Son of Man” is used so often in the New Testament, and all but three times that it occurs in the New Testament, it comes from the lips of Jesus. And it refers back to the Old Testament vision that was written down by the prophet Daniel, where Daniel had a vision into the interior of the heavenly court of God, where he saw the Ancient of Days enthroned, and the judgment was set. And to the Ancient of Days comes “one like unto a son of man,” Who then is given the authority to judge the world. So that in the first instance, the Son of Man is a heavenly Person ~ a heavenly Person Who descends to this world, Whose principal role in His visitation to this earth is that of the heavenly judge. And then He returns to the presence of God in His ascension. Jesus, of course, having been crucified, buried, and resurrected, as ascended to the right hand and is seated on the throne in the power of God. As Jesus said, “No one ascends to the Father except He who has first descended from Him.”
We tend to think that Jesus’ calling Himself the Son of Man was an expression of humility, when, in fact, it was a claim to divine authority. When He heals on the Sabbath day and is rebuked by His enemies, He said, “I did this that you may know that the Son of the Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” And when He forgives sins and creates an uproar from His contemporaries who said “Only God has the authority to forgive sins,” Jesus said, “I did this that you might know that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” So, again ~ and again, and again, and again ~ this title, “Son of Man,” that Jesus uses for Himself, is a highly exalted title.
And by the same token, even the title "Son of God" is much higher and much more exalted than some would have it.
"Jesus never even suggested he be worshipped."
But he accepted worship many times, both before and after His crucifixion and resurrection.
Grace and peace to all.
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Jesus is a man. Scripture repeatedly says he is a man. There is no verse that states he is a deity and there is no verse that confirms it.
I don't know what one verse you are referring to, as I've repeatedly mentioned the Sh'ma, 1C & the verse that says all glory to God. Having said all that, this verse is about one verse; the verse where Jesus said his Father is the only true God. Why is this not good enough for you?
Paul told the Pharisees that they followed tradition instead of the scriptures (Matt 15:6, Mark 7:13). The Pharisees were the religious leaders of that time but that didn't make them immune from following tradition instead of the scriptures. If it was true then there is no reason it can't be true today.@Rich R - your post - Anyway, I think the power of tradition causes us to see things that aren't there at all.
I came straight out of the world brother. No traditional background at all. Just a pagan who became a believer and has the Holy Spirit dwelling within...
The label "orthodox church" does not guarantee tradition is not taught instead of truth. The only source for truth are the scriptures and they declare that only the Father is God. There is absolutely no justification for making the word "godhead" into a trinity. The word simply means "godlike" and it does not mean that the person is actually God. If it did then we are all God.
2Pet 1:4,
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The words "divine nature" are the same Greek word as "godhead" (theios). This is not tradition. It is the actual scriptures. Having a divine nature does not make us God nor did Jesus having a divine nature make him God. Jesus is the son of God. The Bible says that over 35 times. Never once do we find "God the Son" in the scriptures. For that we must look to tradition and if you look up the two verses I referenced regarding the Pharisees, you'll see that tradition makes the word of God of none effect.
Only the Father is God (1 Cor 8:6, John 17:3). No need to twist that simple deceleration to make it fit with tradition. Just accept it as written and go from there. The Bible makes way more sense when we understand that a son can never be his own father.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
You must not have read my other post which clearly shows from the Bible that Jesus is God. You seem to have no response but to repeat yourself and not address the scriptures.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
There you go again.
Rather than hijack this thread, why don't you acknowledge that Jesus is not God based on John 17:3, that he explicitly says his Father is the only true God and since he is not the Father, Jesus is not God.
After that, you can start a thread on all the other verses you are eager to put on the table for discussion. One by one, we will show how the inherently contradictory doctrine of the trinity has not where to hide in the monotheist text of Scripture.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Pot calling the kettle black. This thread is not about those other verses. Why can't you understand that?
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Again you don't address the obvious references to the deity of Christ, you refer back to your one scripture. You have no argument and you dismiss the glaringly obvious truth pointed out to you. I see no point in continuing this conversation.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Oh? Great! Please site any verse that states there is any God besides the Father. You can't and the reason is that Rich R is correct. On the one hand, we have trinitarian dogma. On the other hand, we have every Epistle stating only the Father is God. And Jesus's own words saying only the Father is the true God. Why doesn't that mean anything to you?
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Why can't you address any other scripture pointed out to you? You deny Jesus' own words. Do you deny that Stephen prayed to Jesus? That God purchased the Church with his own blood?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Friend, this thread is about that one Scripture. Why can't you stick to it and admit what it says regarding your doctrine?
I know you are new here. The other verses you presented have already been delved into in other threads and I'd be happy to have that conversation with you also. But I can understand why you don't want to address the 20,000 verses where God is identified in the singular, including Jesus saying only his father (singular) is the true God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Hijacking the thread.
Appeal to Diversion.
Happy to address other Scripture in other threads. Listen. Starting a thread is free. Go start one. I suggest the 3 best verses or argument FOR and AGAINST the trinity.
I think you are smart enough to realize it is hard to talk about dozens of verses all at once. See my signature? Rest assured the entire Bible was written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day! A trinitarian tactic is to always claim there is this 'mountain' of other verses supporting the trinity. The opposite is true. One by one, we can discuss them - in other threads.
Thank you.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Start another thread on that please. Again, you are all over the place.
Without researching it, I recall Stephan saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God just before he died. Logic. Jesus is not God but is God's right hand man. No one stands on their own right hand side. See my thread on juxtaposition.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Of course God is identified in the singular. There is one God existing in three persons.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Already started another thread. There are plenty of people on the forum who believe in The Trinity. It is a closed issue in The Statement of Faith on this forum. Feel free to comment there.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Trinitarian dogma says this but it contradicts what the Bible says.
Please humbly admit that there is not one single verse in all 66 books of Scripture that says the one God exists in three persons.
Thanks!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Sadly, I did not find it. I saw your question about other members beliefs thread from yesterday. Is that the one you are referring to or did you start another one?
There is a long standing thread I've dabbled in entitled, "Jesus is God." If you want a fresh, play by play of the specific verses you referred to in this thread, it would be cleaner to start another thread.
I say I dabbled in that thread because I realize there are trinitarians among us. And as you said, they dominate Christendom. I don't have to post in thread's where I disagree with the premise. :)
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