face2face
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Those who interpret the Bible literally in all cases have not yet tasted the milk of the Word.
What Are we Getting Saved From?
- Thread starter Aunty Jane
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1 Corinthians 6:2-3 (WEB):
(2) Don’t you know that the saints will judge the world? ...
(3) Don’t you know that we will judge angels? ...
(3) Don’t you know that we will judge angels? ...
Paul was addressing this to all Christians, the whole Church:
1 Corinthians 1:2 (ESV):
(2) To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
So who is “the world” that the elect will judge?
Who is “we” in that second verse.....and in order to judge the angels, they must have authority over them because humans are said to be “lower than the angels”....so the elect, once resurrected to heaven, are elevated to a superior position than what angels have.
Who is “we” in that second verse.....and in order to judge the angels, they must have authority over them because humans are said to be “lower than the angels”....so the elect, once resurrected to heaven, are elevated to a superior position than what angels have.
This scripture is stating something you seem to miss....
The portion you have highlighted is not saying what you think it is.....
Read it again....
“To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours“....
This is clearly differentiating between those “called to be saints” TOGETHER WITH those who also call on the name of their Lord Jesus.....he is the “Lord” of both groups. Some with a “heavenly calling” and those who also also serve the Lord Jesus in assisting their ‘elected’ brothers. (Hebrews 3:1)
When Jesus comes to judge the world and to bring wickedness to an end, he will “separate the sheep from the goats”.....so, on what basis are people judged to be “sheep”?
Matthew 25:34-40.....
“Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”
What identifies the “sheep”? And how are they “saved”?
The fact stated in Jesus’ words is that they supported Christ’s “brothers”. These are Christ’s ‘elect’, those who were to be adopted as “sons of God” to rule with him in his Kingdom......it is the ones who support them whilst still on earth, when they are on the receiving end of hard times, who are “saved”.
So there are Christ’s “brothers”.....and those who see them in need and offer to support them. Because they are supporting their fellow “Christians” they do not see this as anything extraordinary. The elect are part of the congregation....Christ is “their Lord” as well as the “Lord” of those who are not called to be “saints”.
The “goats” are those who do not recognize the elect as brothers of Christ, and so fail to offer any assistance to them.
To believe that all Christians are heaven bound is to fail to understand the role of the Kingdom in the salvation of both groups. Revelation identifies survivors of “the great tribulation”...”a great multitude” (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14) who stand in contrast to a finite group of 144,000. There are two groups of Christians, with two different destinies. Both are saved by Christ’s sacrifice and are blessed by God.
There is a “first resurrection” of these 144,000 and there is also a general resurrection of those whom Jesus will call from their graves after the Kingdom rule is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29) But waiting to greet and teach these resurrected ones is a human army of Christ’s disciples who have “come out of the great tribulation”, waiting in anticipation for what follows.....restoring everlasting life in the paradise conditions that Adam lost for all of us.....I hope to be among them....
Revelation 21:2-4...
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
These last days are about to come to their end....the present things, will become the “former things”.
The "world" is all non-Christian humans that ever lived, from the days of Adam onwards, who are resurrected to human life again and live during the Millennial Age (1,000 year reign of Jesus and the Church).
The first verse I quoted, in full says, 1 Corinthians 6:2 (WEB):
(2) Don’t you know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Paul addressed his letter to all Christians, and it is all Christians who will be judging the world and the angels, and all Christians are saints. The passage goes on, 1 Corinthians 6:3-7 (ESV):
(3) Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
(4) So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
(5) I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers,
(6) but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
(7) To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
(4) So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
(5) I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers,
(6) but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
(7) To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
He is saying that we will judge the world and angels, therefore we should be able to judge between ourselves in the Church. It seems some Christians were taking other Christians to civil law courts over disputes, rather than judging bwetween themselves in the Church. He is talking to the whole Church - every Christian will be judges of the world and angels, when we all have a share in Jesus' inheritance.
As already stated, there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5), and as Paul also said, Romans 6:3-5 (WEB):
(3) Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
(4) We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection;
(4) We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection;
2 Corinthians 5:16-17 (WEB):
(16) Therefore we know no one after the flesh from now on. Even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.
(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.
(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.
Having a share in Jesus death, we also share in Jesus' resurrection - a spiritual resurrection, not human. As divine spirit beings, shaing in Jesus' inheritance, we will have authority to judge humans and angels. As Jesus said, Luke 7:28 (WEB):
(28) “For I tell you, among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.”
You are twisting the Scriptures to try and fit it to your idea of two classes of Christians, but I think that you are wrong. :) Paul's letter is addressed to all Christians, not just those in Corinth, but to all Christians everywhere, all who call upon Jesus' name and have Jesus as their Lord, those who are already saints and those yet to become saints.
Jesus is talking about the final judgement at the end of the Millennial Age. It is the judgement of all of the non-Christians that have been resurrected to human life, including those who lived in Old Testament times. The Church has already been resurrected/raptured and are in heaven before the start of the Millennial Age.
When Jesus refers to his brothers he is referring to those that do the will of God, which will be most of those still living at the end of the Millennial Age. Matthew 12:50 (WEB):
(50) For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Those two groups consist of people living at the time of the Great Tribulation - the 144,000 Jewish men and the great multitude of people who come to faith in Jesus after the resurrection/rapture of the Church has already happened. They have missed the boat of the acceptable time for sacrifice, and are therefore not true Christians - they have missed the opportunity to become members of the body and bride of Christ and to share in Christ's inheritance.
The 144,000 are not resurrected. They are alive on earth and are "sealed" before the Great Tribulation starts (Revelation 7:3).
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Just to reiterate, you appear to be saying that there are two classes of Christians. The first class consists of 144,000 people who will become spirit beings and live in heaven, and the second class will be a very large number of people who will be resurrected as humans and will live on the earth. However, that is the opposite of what the Scriptures in Revelation say.
The 144,000 are all Jewish men and they are always referred to as living on the earth:
Revelation 7:2-4 (WEB):
(2) I saw another angel ascend from the sunrise, having the seal of the living God. He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea,
(3) saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!”
(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
The 144,000 are on the earth, and they are all Jewish.(3) saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!”
(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Revelation 14:1-2,4 (WEB):
(1) I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.
(2) I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.
(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
They are again on the earth. It's not a Mount Zion in heaven because they hear a sound coming down from heaven. They are all men.(2) I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.
(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 9:1-5 (WEB):
(1) The fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from the sky which had fallen to the earth. The key to the pit of the abyss was given to him.
(2) He opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke from a burning furnace. The sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke from the pit.
(3) Then out of the smoke came locusts on the earth, and power was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) They were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those people who don’t have God’s seal on their foreheads.
(5) They were given power, not to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion, when it strikes a person.
The demons released from the abyss to torment peple on the earth, were told not to hurt those who had God's seal on their foreheads, i.e. the 144,000 are still on the earth.(2) He opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke from a burning furnace. The sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke from the pit.
(3) Then out of the smoke came locusts on the earth, and power was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) They were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those people who don’t have God’s seal on their foreheads.
(5) They were given power, not to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion, when it strikes a person.
Revelation 7:9,13-17 (WEB):
(9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could count, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
(13) One of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are arrayed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?”
(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.
(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.
(16) They will never be hungry, neither thirsty any more; neither will the sun beat on them, nor any heat;
(17) for the Lamb who is in the middle of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of life-giving waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
The great multitude are in heaven, not on the earth. They are therefore spirit beings now, but they are servants, not sons, and they do not have the immortal divine nature that Christians will have - they need the life-giving waters.(13) One of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are arrayed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?”
(14) I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, “These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.
(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tabernacle over them.
(16) They will never be hungry, neither thirsty any more; neither will the sun beat on them, nor any heat;
(17) for the Lamb who is in the middle of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of life-giving waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
So the Revelation Scriptures say the opposite of what you are saying. The 144,000 live on the earth and are human, the great multitude live in heaven and are spirit beings, and they are not resurrected Christians from the Gospel Age. So "a human army of Christ’s disciples who have “come out of the great tribulation”" will not be waiting on the earth to greet the resurrected non-Christians. The 144,000 Jews will be there.
Micah 4:1-2 (WEB):
(1) But in the latter days, it will happen that the mountain of Yahweh’s temple will be established on the top of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills; and peoples will stream to it.
(2) Many nations will go and say, “Come! Let’s go up to the mountain of Yahweh, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the law will go out of Zion, and Yahweh’s word from Jerusalem; [Where the 144,000 will be?]
(2) Many nations will go and say, “Come! Let’s go up to the mountain of Yahweh, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the law will go out of Zion, and Yahweh’s word from Jerusalem; [Where the 144,000 will be?]
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All of the 144,000 have lived as humans on earth. It is whilst still in the flesh that they receive their "sealing"...their "heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1)
These are spiritual Israel, not fleshly Israel. "The Israel of God" whom Paul identified (Galatians 6:16) were both Jewish and Gentile Christians. Jesus said that fleshly Israel had been "abandoned" because they could never stay faithful to God....and they wickedly put his son to death.....to this day, they have never acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah...."the one who came in the name of the Lord". (Matthew 23:37-39)
Their history is appalling as anyone can plainly see from reading their "warts and all" scripture. No attempt is made to gloss over their failings.
This Mount Zion is not on earth, as Paul wrote.....
"But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels". (Hebrews 12:22)
The sound they heard from heaven could mean the sky above them...like thunder. If it was from God, who knows where it would seem to come from?
Being "virgins", signifies their spiritual purity since many of these ones were married, like the apostle Peter, whose mother-in-law Jesus healed.
Chosen "from among men" is "mankind" not just males. And besides that, the elect, once raised to heaven, are like the angels who have no gender. (Galatians 3:26-29)
What is gender for anyway? It is only for reproduction. Once in spirit form, they will not need gender.
Do you not know why God and his son always referred to themselves and each other as males? And why angels always materialized as males?
The fact that these are called "firstfruits" in an agricultural society meant that other fruits (a secondary but inferior crop) was to follow later. The "first resurrection" applies only to the elect. (Revelation 20:6)
I believe differently.....that this prophecy describes a swarm of locusts that have human faces and ‘what seem to be crowns of gold’ on their heads. (Revelation 9:7) They torment “those people [God’s enemies] who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads” for a period of five months, (the average life span of a locust.) (Revelation 9:4-5) This appears to be a description of Jehovah’s anointed servants...his elect because they are said to have a king over them...."the angel of the abyss" "Abaddon" "Apollyon"....the "destroying angel". The angel who sends satan and his demons into the abyss, and finally into the lake of fire, can only be that King Jesus Christ.
These locusts boldly proclaim God’s judgments against this wicked world under satan's control, and as a result, make its supporters very uncomfortable....tormenting them just like Jesus preaching tormented the Pharisees. The truth stings like a scorpion...
After seeing the 144,00 on heavenly Mount Zion, John then see this great multitude who are said to "come out of the great tribulation", which occurs on earth...they are survivors of the end of this world system....and will form the nucleus of the "new earth" who will be ruled by the "new heavens"....Christ and his 144,000 elect. (2 Peter 3:13)
Like Noah survived the flood catastrophe and the end of that world, so too Christ's servants on earth will survive the greatest tribulation that this earth has ever seen, as John saw in his vision. The elect will all be in heaven when the tribulation breaks out.
Well, I believe the exact opposite to you. "The Mountain of Jehovah" is Zion....and it is "heavenly Jerusalem" from where Christ and his "bride" will rule redeemed mankind. Revelation 21:2-4 will then have its fulfillment.
Please tell me keithr....do you have a brotherhood who all believe what you believe?
Taking God's Word "literally" is not interpreting. Do you "interpret" John 3:16?
So you are the sole arbiter of what you believe? How does that work with what is written in scripture?
You cannot be a Christian in isolation from a brotherhood who all believe what you believe, (1 Corinthians 1:10; Hebrews 10:24-25)....the disunity we see in Christendom invalidates everything the Bible says about what we choose as the truth.....if what we have chosen to believe is not shared by others, then how can it be validated? It just means that you are part of a very large group of individuals who have decided for themselves what is truth and what isn’t. If God was the one guiding you all, there would be unity, but it is clear that there is no unity.....sites like this are proof of that.
Believing something doesn’t make it true....
Jesus promised that he would appoint a “faithful and discreet slave” (“a faithful and wise servant”) as part of his prophesy on the end times and proof of his return. This slave/servant would “feed” his fellow slaves “their food at the proper time”, (Matthew 24:45) so we were not to be left to our own devices at this critical time in history, (any more than those in the first century were.) Jesus sent his disciples out to the people to unitedly preach his message, and he said that it would be preached “in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” before “the end” would come. (Matthew 24:14) It is our response to that preaching (testimony) and our determination to remain faithful to our assignment in spite of all the strong opposition it would bring, (John 15:18-21) that determines whether we will be “saved” or not. (Matthew 24:13)
That slave has been busy operating exactly as Jesus foretold....gathering a global body of believers into one solid and united brotherhood who would all subscribe to one set of beliefs with no disagreement or dissension. They would be actively preaching in the same way as the first Christians did....and Jesus promised to be “with” them till the end. (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20)
That is how you know you are at least on the right track. You will not be alone.
How do you interpret John 3:16?
Most people concentrate on the first part of Jesus’ words but completely ignore the second part.
Here it is in a few different translations....
ASV....“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
CEB...”God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life.”
NASB...“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life."
Do you see that word used in all these Bibles......? “Perish”....in Greek this is "apollymi" and it means "to be utterly destroyed"....not tortured or eternally tormented in a fiery hell.
Jesus said plainly....in Matthew 10:28...
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
And here again, we have that much mistranslated word "hell" which is "gehenna" in this verse....and it is not a place of conscious torment, but a place where garbage was thrown for disposal. Those in "hell" (gehenna) "perish".....fire destroys things.
Can you understand that you might need a little more education, especially in original language words so that you are not suckered into believing things that Christ never taught.....? "Hell" was a convenient place for the Catholic church to use fear to force compliance with their unscriptural doctrines....a church not founded on love, but who twisted the scriptures like the Pharisees did, to their own advantage.
The saddest part about the Protestant Reformation is that these reformers took a lot of their mother's dirty laundry with them....and hold to it even now. They broke the power of the Roman church, but all they succeeded in doing was to divide "Christianity" into literally thousands of bickering fragments. Is Christ hidden somewhere in all that disagreement?
One of the devil's best weapons, is confusion.....mission accomplished...."weeds" sown and the job done.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that.
I am not in isolation. I have been attending the same local church for 28 years. I am a trustee and the treasurer of that church. I was just honestly answering your question - my doctrinal beliefs may differ a little from the others in church I attend. I learnt a lot from the former assistant pastor of the church (now deceased) but I have since then also learnt more amazing Biblical truths and understandings from some Christian TV programs, YouTube videos, website articles and Bible Study forums. Our communication is not limited to our local congregation as it was in apostle Paul's days.
By prayer and sound Bible study. You said that what the Jehovah Witnesses believe has changed over the years, so how were those changes validated?
A lot of people (around 100 or more years ago) used to believe that Charles Taze Russell was that servant. Who do you think it was/is?
Just because these weird beings have a king that doesn't mean that that king must be Jesus and they must be resurrected Christians! Jesus is King of kings, so there are other kings! When Paul said we shall be changed, I'm sure he didn't mean that we will be changed into beings like these, Revelation 9:7-10 (WEB):
(7) The shapes of the locusts were like horses prepared for war. On their heads were something like golden crowns, and their faces were like people’s faces.
(8) They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like those of lions.
(9) They had breastplates, like breastplates of iron. The sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, or of many horses rushing to war.
(10) They have tails like those of scorpions, and stings. In their tails they have power to harm men for five months.
(8) They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like those of lions.
(9) They had breastplates, like breastplates of iron. The sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, or of many horses rushing to war.
(10) They have tails like those of scorpions, and stings. In their tails they have power to harm men for five months.
1 John 3:2 says we shall be like Jesus, and I'm sure Jesus is not like those "locusts".
We are told that after his resurrection Jesus sat down at the right-hand of God:
Jesus said, Luke 22:69 (WEB):
(69) From now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
Colossians 3:1 (WEB):(1) If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
1 Peter 3:22 (WEB):(22) who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.
So how can you believe that Jesus and the resurrected Church have been up to that time locked up in the "pit of the abyss", the prison of the demons? Why did God need to give the key to release them to an angel (probably a fallen angel), so that they could be released?
Revelation 9:1-2 (WEB):
(1) The fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from the sky which had fallen to the earth. The key to the pit of the abyss was given to him.
(2) He opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke from a burning furnace. The sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke from the pit.
(2) He opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke from a burning furnace. The sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke from the pit.
This is the same abyss that Satan will be cast into and locked into for the 1,000 year reign of Christ. It's the same abyss that demons begged Jesus to not send them, Luke 8:30-31 (WEB):
(30) Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He said, “Legion,” for many demons had entered into him.
(31) They begged him that he would not command them to go into the abyss.
(31) They begged him that he would not command them to go into the abyss.
Also Paul said, Romans 10:7 (WEB):
(7) or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)”
so since Jesus is alive again, he can't be in the abyss.
I also don't think Abaddon is one of Jesus' names. Job uses the name Abaddon as the name of the place of destruction - sheol. Job 26:6 (WEB):
(6) Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.
Jesus and his bride will not have the role of torturing all of mankind (excluding the 144,000 sealed Israelites), that is done by the demons that are released from the pit of the abyss. Jesus and his bride, the body of Christ, will be blessing mankind, not tormenting them.
Not locked up in the pit of the abyss then?
bbyrd009
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well, you can say it like you know, sure, but that doesnt make it true, eh
either way it is a story to us, meant to impart wisdom, i think
Amen! That's Kingdom Hall at work. They TWIST nearly every verse in our Christian Bible to change the perfectly clear meaning!
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Prove it's a parable. You can't. So it must be literal. The rich man died but was alive in the "everlasting fire" that Jesus clearly warned us about.
Luke 16
The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
It was a one word answer.....open to a lot of speculation....that is why details are important.
Clarity means not misunderstanding or misinterpreting what is stated, which happens a lot on sites like this.
Say what you mean and mean what you say.
How can you hold beliefs that differ from your brotherhood? If the Holy Spirit directs “the church” and they all hold differing interpretations of God’s word, which we know is “inspired of God” (2 Timothy 3:16-17) then who is “the church”? Why would God’s spirit teach different understanding of his word to different people in different denominations....who are all equally sincere?
Paul said....
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
How does that describe Christendom in any way?
Since the “slave” that Jesus appointed in these last days is said to “feed” his fellow slaves “their food at the proper time” (or in due season) that indicates to us that we will will get what we need, when we need it. That may well involve a clearer understanding of beliefs we may have held, and now need to adjust our thinking on the matter, just as the first Christians did not have everything explained all at once. Even as Jesus was leaving after three and a half years of his instruction, his apostles did not fully understand the details about the kingdom.
Proverbs 4:18 puts it this way....”
“But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.”
We start off in the dark, but as the day gets brighter, things become clearer.
The “slave” is not one man....like the apostles were a body of men, so the slave is a body of men, just members of God’s household, assigned to feed their fellow slaves spiritual food at the due time....this slave is not above them, but simply has more responsibilities. Positions in the Christian congregation were never positions of power, just positions of service....they needed no fancy titles or garb to distinguish them.
Charles Taze Russell was a member of a body of men for whom he was a spokesman. He was a gifted public speaker and his knowledge of scripture usually left his opponents in debate, speechless. The group published “Zion’s Watchtower” as a newsletter for those who were fed up with Christendom’s hypocritical conduct and unscriptural beliefs.....and the time was right for God to reveal his truth to the world....to gather the remaining ones of his anointed, and to “preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth, as a witness to all the nations” before Christ came as judge to mete out justice on believers and unbelievers alike. They got to work doing just that....and The Watchtower” has continued to be published without let up for well over 100 years, proclaiming God’s Kingdom.
The two classes of people whom Jesus will judge adversely are clearly identified by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8....
“But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.”
So those who “do not know God”, because they don’t want to....and those who know what Jesus taught but “do not obey” him, will be on the receiving end of God’s wrath. Even those who claim Jesus as their “Lord” but who do not closely adhere to his teachings will suffer rejection as those he “never knew”. (Matthew 7:21-23)
The slave exists and the criteria for his identification is clear.....he will be found “doing the will of the Father”.
Since this involves preaching the “good news of the kingdom”, it makes their identification easy for those who are searching for the truth.....they know what God’s kingdom is, and what it’s purpose is....the majority in Christendom’s churches haven’t got a clue because they have never fed at the table of the slave. They have been led (of their own free will) to believe lies about what Christians should believe and practise, disqualifying themselves for salvation....involving deliberate sins as well as the sin of omission. They fail on both counts.
This is exactly what the Jews did in the first century. Misled by their religious leaders, they put their own savior to death, imagining that they had done God a favour. So confident of what they were doing that they cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25)
History is repeating and no one notices....
Do you know how horribly misled you are? This is not “the Kingdom Hall at work” because the Kingdom Hall is a building.....you are shown clear scripture but your own belief system had already twisted it so long ago that people accept the fake as the real thing. Just read what it says in plain English. Do some original language word studies and see how far you have been taken down the wrong road. It’s the same road that the majority are travelling. (Matthew 7:13-14) “Few” are on the road to life.
This was all foretold you know.....the “weeds” sown by the devil were not sown recently.....they began to grow centuries ago....in fact the apostles were grappling with them even in the first century.
The time is well along and it’s time for the “harvest”....are you ready?
Read it....Matthew 13:24-30 and 36-43.
I'm misled for taking God literally? Are there any Bible verses that JW's don't try to rewrite? What are your credentials for rewriting our Bible? None maybe?
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