What Are we Getting Saved From?

[face2face]

[Continuing...]
The apostle Paul, when speaking of the animal sacrifices and the New Covenant, said, “It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these” (Hebrews 9:23). These “better sacrifices” are the sacrifice of Jesus, the Christ Head, and the members of his Church, the Christ Body. The bullock and goat were the only animal sacrifices that were burnt outside of the camp (symbolising rejection by the world), hence Paul said, “Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach” (Hebrews 13:12-13).

Sorry to pick this apart, I often let these things slide...but I woke at 4:30am this morning and feeling rather motivated!

I believe you missed a vital point here also. Again, you must stay extremely close to the redemptive work in Christ otherwise you slide into error.

Both in the Law and in the Apostle Paul's teaching we see the sacrifice placed place outside the camp was to teach the Israelites that the completion of the true atonement would be outside the strict requirements of the Law, through a manifestation of divine grace.

Hebrews 13:12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. (Sanctification could not come by Law only by Grace!) 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp (without Law), bearing the disgrace he bore.

Bearing the disgrace is the place where Yahweh's Grace works - if its under the Law (in the camp) Grace is not efficacious!

Enjoy your day

F2F

Note: If you are speaking to his sacrifice then you are right - his sacrifice was a repudiation of the flesh in its condemned state. 1 john 2:16

 

[face2face]

@keithr the without the camp lesson for us, is about becoming that vulnerable and exposed that we have nothing to hide and everything to gain!

Character fruits in keeping with repentance.

 

[face2face]

I might add I think the 'shame' or 'disgrace' in Hebrews 13:12 is the persecution he was subjected to 'outside the camp' cp Hebrews 12:1-2. To 'bear his disgrace' is to suffer with and for him. The writer has a couple of things going on here, and one of them is to prepare the reader psychologically for the fact that they need to flee Jerusalem, i.e. go 'outside the camp' in response to Jesus's advice in the Olivet Prophecy. While the Christians heeded his warning most of the Jews perished in unbelief (AD70). So in keeping with the OP we are being saved from being within the camp of this world from which Christ has already overcome - but the fruits of this are yet to be realise until he comes.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Holy Spirit is not reserved for just a tiny fraction of Christians.

I never said it was.....Holy Spirit is what leads all people to Christ.....it is the means by which God gathers “those who belong to him”. But not all have the “heavenly calling”. The elect have a different role, and a different resurrection to those who do not have this “calling”. Not all are called to be “saints”.

In order to be a king and a priest, there has to be subjects and sinners to provide services for.
Kings and priests are useless if there is no one to rule or on whose behalf to act as priests.

Not every Christian can be called to fulfill this capacity. It is completely illogical.
It is also contrary to the whole reason why the Kingdom arrangement was instituted.

The majority of people who identify as “Christians” have no real idea about what God’s Kingdom is and what the “good news” (gospel) really is. When asked point blank what is God’s Kingdom and what is it’s purpose, often all you hear is.....crickets.

Paul wrote of the faithful Old Testament Israelites, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect” (Hebrews 11:39-40). He is saying that the faithful Old Testament Israelites would receive a “better resurrection” (verse 35) as a result of their faithfulness, that is they would be resurrected as perfect human beings immediately, rather than being raised still imperfect and then having to be restored to perfection during Christ’s Millennial Kingdom. However, they, and the rest of mankind, will have to wait until all of the Church has completed their sacrifice before Jesus’ sacrificial merit can be applied to them and they can be resurrected.

When I read Hebrews 11:13-16....I see these words in reference to the beliefs of those who are mentioned as God’s faithful pre-Christian worshippers...many of whom lived before the nation of Israel was formed.....

“These all died in faith without receiving the things promised, but they saw them in the distance and welcomed them and acknowledged that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth. For those who speak in such a way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. In fact, if they had been thinking of the land that they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they aspire to a better land, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” (NET)

Those men and women had no idea about heaven because this was not a Jewish belief. So what did they see “in the distance” that they “welcomed”? Before Jesus came and revealed more of the details about the Messiah and a heavenly hope held out to his disciples, their “homeland” was entirely earthly...but a better land, one that was facilitated by God under the rulership of his kingdom, which will rule from heaven over the earth.

So verses 39-40...
“And these all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.” (NET)
What “perfection” were they expecting?

Those mentioned in the Bible who were men and women of faith can look forward to endless life on earth which is the purpose of God’s Kingdom....to restore all that Adam lost for his children. What Adam lost was not life in heaven.....so why would God chose a relatively small number of Jesus’ disciples to go to heaven if it was not to assist him in the administration of his Kingdom which will bring all things back to square one, restoring the whole reason why God created us humans to live on this earth in the first place?

I don’t think the truth is very complicated at all......people tend to complicate it by adding ideas that the Bible does not teach.
In the beginning....no one was promised heaven. The earth was designed to be our permanent home.

 

[keithr]

But not all have the “heavenly calling”. The elect have a different role, and a different resurrection to those who do not have this “calling”. Not all are called to be “saints”.

I'm not aware of there being two different callings to Christians from God. Do you have Bible references to back that up? (Not verses that are addressed to all Christians.)

All Christians are saints (holy ones). We are all to become holy:

Romans 6:22 (KJV):

(22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.​

1 Corinthians 1:30 (WEB):

(30) Because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:​

1 Thessalonians 4:3 (WEB):

(3) For this is the will of God: your sanctification, ...​

In order to be a king and a priest, there has to be subjects and sinners to provide services for.
Kings and priests are useless if there is no one to rule or on whose behalf to act as priests.

There will be billions of resurrected non-Christians to be blessed and ruled over!

The majority of people who identify as “Christians” have no real idea about what God’s Kingdom is and what the “good news” (gospel) really is. When asked point blank what is God’s Kingdom and what is it’s purpose, often all you hear is.....crickets.

Not everyone is at the same point in their calling - we're all in the school of Christ. It is God who works in us (Philippians 2:13, Ephesians 2:10). Jesus is able to judge between the wheat and the tares. :)

When I read Hebrews 11:13-16....I see these words in reference to the beliefs of those who are mentioned as God’s faithful pre-Christian worshippers...many of whom lived before the nation of Israel was formed.....

Note everse 12 (WEB):

(12) Therefore as many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as innumerable as the sand which is by the sea shore, were fathered by one man, and him as good as dead.​

The reference to stars is to those who will have a heavenly resurrection, the reference to sand is to those who will have an earthly resurrection. There are way more than 144,000 stars!

What Adam lost was not life in heaven.....so why would God chose a relatively small number of Jesus’ disciples to go to heaven if it was not to assist him in the administration of his Kingdom which will bring all things back to square one, restoring the whole reason why God created us humans to live on this earth in the first place?

Why would God need anyone to assist Him? Neither God nor Jesus need our help!

 

[keithr]

Read it again....where is Mt Zion?

On the earth - in Jerusalem! The previous chapter was talking about events happening on the earth, as is chapter 14. John writes, Revelation 14:1-2 (WEB):

(1) I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.
(2) I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.​

There is no reason to suppose it is referring to a heavenly Mount Zion - the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven is not mentioned until chapter 21. While Jesus and the 144,000 men are standing on Mount Zion they hear a sound coming down from heaven, so they can't be in heaven!

Again this is symbolic language....because the ones who are taken to heaven have no gender or nationality.
Galatians 3:26...
"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise."

But they are not Christians, they have not been baptised into Christ, and they are not taken to heaven!

Indeed...."the church" will be with Christ before the tribulation leads to Armageddon.....but I am not sure that "raptured" is a word used in the scriptures....(1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

A reminder:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

The words "caught up" are a translation of the Greek word harpazo, which means 'catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force), to seize, carry off by force'. The Latin translation is rapturo, although in the Latin Vulgate Bible harpazo was translated into the Latin word rapiemur (first-person plural future passive indicative of rapio). The English word rapture is derived from the Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off"). Or so the Internet tells me!

According to Paul there is a timeframe for when the "first resurrection" begins....
1 Thessalonians 2:13-18...
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."

The "coming of the Lord" is his presence (parousia) when he assumes the role of King over his disciples, but not yet over the world.

It can be validly translated as presence, but verse 16 is a sudden and quick event - a shout from the archangel, the sound of the trumpet of God, and Jesus descending from heaven. Then the dead in Christ are resurrected, and those alive in Christ are quickly snatched away. It happens rapidly:

1 Corinthians 15:52 (which you mentioned above):

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

Jesus gave his disciples a "sign" so that they would know when his "presence" began.....this indicates that it is not an obvious event to humans.

The rapture is Jesus returning for his bride - it's not his presence.

I am exhausted now.....

Me too!

 

[Taken]

What Are we Getting Saved From?
OP ^

Saved from Darkness, Evil, Sin.
Saved unto Light, Goodness, Holiness.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I'm not aware of there being two different callings to Christians from God. Do you have Bible references to back that up? (Not verses that are addressed to all Christians.)

All Christians are saints (holy ones). We are all to become holy:

No, all calling themselves “Christians” are “not saints”.

Those hearing About God, About Christ Jesus and believing what they hear (can call themselves whatever they choose); And can STOP, hearing, STOP believing.
They are being “prepared” to “received” Gods Gift of Conversion;

ie. Being Prepared to receive: Forgiveness, soul salvation, spirit quickening, and PROMISE to be raised in bodily glory.

And once having Received: forgiveness, soul salvation, spirit quickening...ARE called “saints”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Helen]

i think it becomes apparent that the “death” A&E were warned of was spiritual death, not literal, and ones best understanding likely comes by studying the Bible for themselves first, without influence, as Paul says

earth would get awfully crowded, Bible states plainly, more than one way, that we are “here today, gone tomorrow,” “assigned threescore and ten years,” etc

but it isnt going to matter, see, youve heard this before, and you will hear it again, and you either have some pat little sales pitch for each point, or you will just completely ignore the point entirely, like you do with any Scripture that does not fit with the jw profile, would you like to see an example?

you would be amazed …second thoughts , no you wouldn’t…At the amount of changes they have made to what they say they believe, since the 60’s when my hubby and I started allowing them to talk to us on our door step. back then they didn’t believe a lot of things …then slowly over the years they changed their position on things and started saying “ yes we believe that too” !
( trying to make themselves more acceptable and fit in if they knocked on a “born again “ Christians door. .)
Sorry Mark , I know that you don’t like that phrase , but I don’t know how else to describe the believers lol

 

[face2face]

What Are we Getting Saved From?
OP ^

Saved from Darkness, Evil, Sin.
Saved unto Light, Goodness, Holiness.

Glory to God,
Taken

Hebrews 2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

That's why Paul states in Romans 8:1 - now there is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus

Currently all condemned to die

Saved from Darkness, Evil, Sin....death!!!

Set free!
Held in slavery
Fear of death
No condemnation

It's all about our weak nature which Christ shared with us - 2 Corinthians 13:4

 

[face2face]

There is no reason to suppose it is referring to a heavenly Mount Zion - the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven is not mentioned until chapter 21. While Jesus and the 144,000 men are standing on Mount Zion they hear a sound coming down from heaven, so they can't be in heaven!

@Aunty Jane

Firstly, the 144,000 represents the whole number of the redeemed. This appears from Revelation 14:3 where they are called the redeemed, those acquired by the Lamb by the ransom, or price paid, even his blood!

These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from humanity as first-fruits to God and to the Lamb.

The precise number of the 'redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish, and without spot' (1 Peter 1:18,19), we are told in Revelation 7:9, is 'a great multitude which no man could number.'

You have taken a numerical value and added non-biblical notions to it to form your entire theological model but sadly it has no basis.

You must admit the number is perfect in form! It's obvious following verses that this number is not to be taken literally, for it is made up of an equal number from each of the twelve tribes of Israel (which later describes in detail).

The priestly aspects of Israel have already been symbolised in the twenty-four elders and four living ones (Military & Governance) of Revelation 4; and now the overall number of Israel is brought into focus with the 144,000.

The answer to the 144,000 after which you have the tribes of Israel listed is provided in verse 9

Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands.

Now when you come to the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 it is described as having a wall which is made up of twelve gems Revelation 21:19-20 divided by twelve openings, or gates. The foundations of this city are given the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb as per Revelation 21:14, who elsewhere are told that they shall constitute the twelve princes of the Kingdom Age to come as per Matthew 19:28 identifying their future office with that possessed by the twelve princes in the Davidic kingdom.

A wonderful vision of the redeemed establishing the Kingdom of God on earth; ruling it's peoples having the twelve Apostles judging over the 12 tribes of Israel, as promised.

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm not aware of there being two different callings to Christians from God. Do you have Bible references to back that up? (Not verses that are addressed to all Christians.)

Two scriptures come to mind....both pertain to the "first resurrection".
Revelation 20:6...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."
If there is a "first resurrection", then another is to follow. (John 5:28-29)

Likewise 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17....
"For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

Do you see the sequence? All those who are "dead in Christ" (his elect) will rise "first". But those who are alive when he returns, would not have to "sleep" in death, but will be changed instantaneously when they leave their fleshly bodies behind to be transformed into spirit creatures. "Born again".

All Christians are saints (holy ones). We are all to become holy:

Romans 6:22 (KJV):
(22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.1 Corinthians 1:30 (WEB):
(30) Because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:1 Thessalonians 4:3 (WEB):
(3) For this is the will of God: your sanctification, ...

The "we" here is the elect. Those who are "in" Christ....they are "one" in complete unity with him. Dying the same death and experiencing the same resurrection as he did.

There will be billions of resurrected non-Christians to be blessed and ruled over!

Then who are "the great multitude" in Revelation 7 who are separate from the 144,000, and who attribute their salvation to God and to the Lamb?
These are Christians too, but not the elect. They are the ones who "come out of the great tribulation" as survivors, which takes place on earth. All are saved by the sacrifice of Christ, but the two groups have two very different destinies.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Not everyone is at the same point in their calling - we're all in the school of Christ. It is God who works in us (Philippians 2:13, Ephesians 2:10). Jesus is able to judge between the wheat and the tares. :)

No one is 'elected' by God who has not already proven their faith by their conduct. Jesus judges between the "wheat and the tares" by the way they worship, and how obediently they follow Jesus Christ in all his teachings.

Do you know what the tares are, and why Jesus used them in his illustration?

Note verse 12 (WEB):

(12) Therefore as many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as innumerable as the sand which is by the sea shore, were fathered by one man, and him as good as dead.
The reference to stars is to those who will have a heavenly resurrection, the reference to sand is to those who will have an earthly resurrection. There are way more than 144,000 stars!

That is not the way other translations render those verses....
"By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore even from one man, and one who was as good as dead at that, there were born descendants who were just as the stars of heaven in number, and as the innumerable grains of sand along the seashore." (NASB)

"By faith even Sarah herself received power to conceive seed when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised: 12 wherefore also there sprang of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the sand, which is by the sea-shore, innumerable." (ASV)

This is speaking about Abraham's descendants figuratively as "many as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the sea...innumerable."
The only descendants of Abraham who will attain a heavenly resurrection are the Jewish Christians of the first century, and the Gentile "Israel of God" who qualified to replace fleshly Israel who failed to recognize their Messiah and had him murdered.

Why would God need anyone to assist Him? Neither God nor Jesus need our help!

No one said they "need our help"....but God has chosen his elect to rule in his Kingdom with Christ nonetheless.

Hebrews 4:15-16...
"For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace whenever we need help."
Having lived as humans, who better to interceded for us than priests who have lived in imperfect flesh like us, who can also sympathize with our weaknesses?

 

[Aunty Jane]

But they are not Christians, they have not been baptised into Christ, and they are not taken to heaven!

Read it again....
Galatians 3:26...
"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise."
Yes they are....what makes you think they are not?

A reminder:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB):
(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
The words "caught up" are a translation of the Greek word harpazo, which means 'catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force), to seize, carry off by force'. The Latin translation is rapturo, although in the Latin Vulgate Bible harpazo was translated into the Latin word rapiemur (first-person plural future passive indicative of rapio). The English word rapture is derived from the Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura ("seizure, kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off"). Or so the Internet tells me!

Yes, its not the being "caught up" that I find 'cringeworthy' but the way many in Christendom see the "rapture" as something chaotic...like people driving cars that will instantly have no driver when the "rapture" happens. I cannot see God doing anything that he has not carefully planned.
"For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the meetings of God’s holy people." (1 Corinthians 14:33)

It can be validly translated as presence, but verse 16 is a sudden and quick event - a shout from the archangel, the sound of the trumpet of God, and Jesus descending from heaven. Then the dead in Christ are resurrected, and those alive in Christ are quickly snatched away. It happens rapidly:

1 Corinthians 15:52 (which you mentioned above):

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.

Yes, the transformation will happen to all "in the twinkling of an eye" but I do not see it as a chaotic event where they all just disappear at once.
I see it more like Jesus' ascension, of which the angels said that Christ would come in the "same manner" as he left. In what manner did Christ depart? It was not a public spectacle and only his closest disciples witnessed it. The world at large was unaware of it.

The rapture is Jesus returning for his bride - it's not his presence.

I know...Christ's "presence" is when "the time of the end" began.....but his 'manifestation as judge' will be at the end when he cleanses the earth of wickedness and introduces the rule of his Kingdom to bring about the fulfillment of Revelation 21:1-4.

 

[keithr]

Two scriptures come to mind....both pertain to the "first resurrection".
Revelation 20:6...
"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."
If there is a "first resurrection", then another is to follow. (John 5:28-29)

Yes, but the first resurrection is the resurrection of the Church - all Christians, all having the same calling and a spiritual body resurrection. The second resurrection is for those that will live through the Millennial Age as humans, and will be ruled over by Jesus and the resurrected Church, and tested and judged at the end of it - these are all the non-Christians. There is no calling for Christians to have no benefit at all over the rest of mankind. There would not be much reason for anybody to answer that call!

Likewise 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17....
"For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

Do you see the sequence? All those who are "dead in Christ" (his elect) will rise "first". But those who are alive when he returns, would not have to "sleep" in death, but will be changed instantaneously when they leave their fleshly bodies behind to be transformed into spirit creatures. "Born again".

Yes, I see the sequence - the dead Christians are resurrected, then those not dead will be instantly changed and join them. They all have the same resurrection reward, all born again as spirit beings, and are all of the same calling.

The "we" here is the elect. Those who are "in" Christ....they are "one" in complete unity with him. Dying the same death and experiencing the same resurrection as he did.

Yes, but the elect are the whole true Church. Paul's letter was addressed to "all those who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" (Romans 1:7). His writings are for the whole Church, not just some elite Christians who have a different calling. Again, Ephesians 4:4-5 (WEB):

(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;
(5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism,​

Then who are "the great multitude" in Revelation 7 who are separate from the 144,000, and who attribute their salvation to God and to the Lamb?
These are Christians too, but not the elect. They are the ones who "come out of the great tribulation" as survivors, which takes place on earth. All are saved by the sacrifice of Christ, but the two groups have two very different destinies.

There is a fixed time appointed by God, which is an acceptable time for sacrifice - 2 Corinthians 6:1-2 (WEB):

(1) Working together, we entreat also that you do not receive the grace of God in vain,
(2) for he says, “At an acceptable time I listened to you, in a day of salvation I helped you.” Behold, now is the acceptable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.​

The acceptable time of sacrifice ends when the Church is resurrected/raptured - the end of the Gospel Age. The great multitude of people who come out of the great tribulation (and the 144,000) have missed the opportunity and calling of God to become members of the body of Christ, and joint heirs with Jesus.

 

[keithr]

No one is 'elected' by God who has not already proven their faith by their conduct.

Can you provide Bible references for that?

Do you know what the tares are, and why Jesus used them in his illustration?

They are nominal Christians, imitating or counterfeiting the true Christians, to try and choke the wheat (true Christians) if possible. The tare seed is false teaching, human philosophies and doctrines of devils.

This is speaking about Abraham's descendants figuratively as "many as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the sea...innumerable."
The only descendants of Abraham who will attain a heavenly resurrection are the Jewish Christians of the first century, and the Gentile "Israel of God" who qualified to replace fleshly Israel who failed to recognize their Messiah and had him murdered.

Here's a quote from someone you may have heard of, Charles Taze Russell (from 'The Divine Plan of The Ages', A292):

It is through these two phases of the kingdom that the promise to Abraham is to be verified - "In thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed." "Thy seed shall be as the sand of the sea, and as the stars of heaven" - an earthly and a heavenly seed, both God's instruments of blessing to the world. Both phases of the promises were clearly seen and intended by God from the beginning, but only the earthly was seen by Abraham. And though God selected from the natural seed the chief of the spiritual class (the apostles and others), and proffered the chief blessing, the spiritual, to all of that nation living in the due time for that heavenly call, this was just so much beyond what Abraham ever saw in the covenant - favor upon favor.

Paul (Romans 11:17) speaks of the Abrahamic covenant as a root out of which fleshly Israel grew naturally, but into which the Gentile believers were grafted when the natural branches were cut off because of unbelief. This proves the double fulfilment of the promise in the development of the two seeds, earthly (human) and heavenly (spiritual), which will constitute the two phases of the kingdom. This root-covenant bears these two distinct kinds of branches, each of which in the resurrection will bear its own distinct kind of perfect fruitage - the human and spiritual classes in kingdom power. In order of development it was first the natural (earthly), afterward the heavenly rulers; but in order of grandeur of position and time of instalment, it will be first the spiritual, afterward the natural; and so there are last which shall be first, and first which shall be last. Matthew 19:30; Luke 16:16​

The Israelites will form the earthly part of God's Kingdom, the Christians will form the heavenly part, with Jesus the King.

 

[keithr]

Read it again....
Galatians 3:26...
"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise."
Yes they are....what makes you think they are not?

The conversation was:

I said:

It says they are all men - there are no women among the 144,000 (Revelation 14:4)! They are the firstfruits from among men, i.e. having been sealed (Revelation 7:3) before the Great Tribulation and the start of the Millenial Age, they are the first to have gained eternal human life. Revelation 14:4 (WEB):

(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.​

You said:

Again this is symbolic language....because the ones who are taken to heaven have no gender or nationality.​

Galatians 3:26...
"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise."​

I said:

But they are not Christians, they have not been baptised into Christ, and they are not taken to heaven!​

I was referring to the 144,000. These 144,000 Jews have faith in the Messiah then, but they have missed the opportunity to become Christians - that calling ended with Jesus' return for his bride, the resurrection/rapture of Christians. No true Christians will be left behind. They have all been changed to be spirit beings and are in heaven before the 144,000 Israelites are sealed.

 

[quietthinker]

"Salvation" is a common topic among professed Christians, but the whole idea of it has been warped and twisted into something that has no bearing on why God created humans to live on this earth in the first place.

If you pull everything together under a "big picture", all of the diverse ideas melt away into nonsense, and a clear and logical picture emerges.

So first of all, why do we need saving?....and what are we getting saved from?

Understanding why God put us here on this earth, is the first place to start getting answers to those questions.
What did he tell the first humans as to their role here?

Genesis 2:4-9....
"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person. 8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused every tree to grow that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (NASB)

Read that carefully and tell us why God put mankind on this earth in the first place.....

More to come later....this topic will be addressed in logical stages....always from God's word.

Our misinformation abut God.

 

[face2face]

Do you see the sequence? All those who are "dead in Christ" (his elect) will rise "first". But those who are alive when he returns, would not have to "sleep" in death, but will be changed instantaneously when they leave their fleshly bodies behind to be transformed into spirit creatures. "Born again".

You mean when your body is changed and when you put on immortality right? 1 Corinthians 15:53

 

[Aunty Jane]

@keithr can I ask you a few questions....? This is just becoming circular and unproductive.

1) What is the Kingdom of God that Jesus taught us to pray for? What is its purpose, and what is the “good news” about it that he told us to preach to the world? (Matthew 6:9-10; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) Please be specific.

2) If there was no reason for God to send any humans to heaven when he created them, why will “all Christians” need go to heaven? If there was a purpose clearly stated in Eden for their everlasting life here on earth, why would God need or want to take any Christians to heaven?

On the night when Jesus inaugurated the new covenant with his 11 faithful apostles, he told them....
“...you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.”

Since the 12 apostles form the foundation of his Kingdom what do you see as their role in heaven?
Who are “the 12 tribes of Israel” whom they are assigned to judge? Where are they?

From my studies it is apparent that your version of what the scriptures say is counter to what is stated, and IMO rather illogical. (Just my opinion)

And just FYI, quoting something from C.T. Russell at the early part of the last century is somewhat laughable since we rely on progressive understanding of the scriptures, just as the first Christians did.
We have come a long way in our understanding in the last 100 years.
When we discover new understanding of an existing belief, we will not hold on to the error but will clarify it and then the whole brotherhood is informed of the new understanding. That is what “progressive” means...God tells his worshippers, (especially when the end is so close) what they need to know, when they need to know it. As part of his prophesy on the time of his return, Jesus said he would appoint a “faithful and wise servant” to do just that. (Matthew 24:45) Who is this “servant” in your understanding? What “food” are they dispensing?

As the day for God’s judgment approaches, we were told to expect clearer understanding of things, which has always been our experience. (Proverbs 4:18)
May I ask who are your brothers....those who share your beliefs?