"Father Forgive them..."

[GRACE ambassador]

Luk 23:33-34 "And when they were come to the place, which is called
Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the malefactors, one on the right
hand, and the other on the left. Then Said Jesus, Father, Forgive them;
for they know not what they do. And they parted His raiment, and cast lots."​

"...In Luke_23:33 we read the stark reality of what the world, both Jews and
Gentiles, did to The LORD Jesus Christ, very God from eternity past to eternity
future. They took the sinless Son of God and crucified Him on a Roman cross
of execution!

Israel had looked for a “Moses” leader (Deut. 18:15-19) who would wield His
shepherd’s staff and get Israel released from Gentile bondage and servitude.
Moses told Pharaoh “let my people go!” And even though Pharaoh hesitated
and later regretted the act, Pharaoh let the nation of Israel go. We read about
this in the Old Testament, and how Israel looked for another who would be like
Moses and tell the Gentiles (Romans) let my people go!...
"
(J Harley)

FULL study:
Father Forgive them



GRACE And Peace...

 

[Aunty Jane]

Who was it that Jesus asked his Father to forgive?

We know that it wasn’t the Jewish leaders who had orchestrated his arrest......and it wasn’t those who had cried out for his death before Pilate.
Jesus had already consigned the wicked Pharisees to “Gehenna”, and the Jews who supported their wickedness had already cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 23:13, 33; Matthew 27:25; Matthew 21:42-43)

That only leaves the Roman soldiers who were oblivious as to who Jesus actually was. To them, he was just another Jew among two others, whom they were instructed to execute as lawbreakers. They were the ones who cast lots for his garment.

Only a “remnant” of fleshly Israel would be saved as it was foretold in their scripture. That was the minority of Jews (“the lost sheep”) who came to Christ.

“even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” (Romans 9:24-28 - ESV)

“Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. (Matthew 21:42-45 - ESV)

So there is no scriptural evidence that God will ever save the nation of natural Israel, because these will never acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah......they see him as a false Messiah just as much today, as their forefathers did back in the first century.
God chose a new nation to replace them....”the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) whom Paul identified as both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

We also see today that many Jews who make the concession and acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, still refuse to give up their “Jewishness” by calling themselves “Christians”. That is a form of national pride that has no place in a body of Christ’s disciples that is international. (Acts 15:14)

The promise to Abraham was that “all the nations would be blessed” by the seed that would come from his descendants, so there never was an ‘exclusiveness’ that was to endure forever. Nor was a claim to belong to Abraham as a descendant, valid with regard to salvation.
John the Baptist said that ‘God could raise up children for Abraham from the stones’. (Matthew 3:7-10)

Therefore, the true Israel of today who serve God, are spiritual “Israel”, not fleshly Israel.

 

[Jim B]

Who was it that Jesus asked his Father to forgive?

We know that it wasn’t the Jewish leaders who had orchestrated his arrest......and it wasn’t those who had cried out for his death before Pilate.
Jesus had already consigned the wicked Pharisees to “Gehenna”, and the Jews who supported their wickedness had already cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 23:13, 33; Matthew 27:25; Matthew 21:42-43)

That only leaves the Roman soldiers who were oblivious as to who Jesus actually was. To them, he was just another Jew among two others, whom they were instructed to execute as lawbreakers. They were the ones who cast lots for his garment.

Only a “remnant” of fleshly Israel would be saved as it was foretold in their scripture. That was the minority of Jews (“the lost sheep”) who came to Christ.

“even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” (Romans 9:24-28 - ESV)

“Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. (Matthew 21:42-45 - ESV)

So there is no scriptural evidence that God will ever save the nation of natural Israel, because these will never acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah......they see him as a false Messiah just as much today, as their forefathers did back in the first century.
God chose a new nation to replace them....”the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) whom Paul identified as both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

We also see today that many Jews who make the concession and acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, still refuse to give up their “Jewishness” by calling themselves “Christians”. That is a form of national pride that has no place in a body of Christ’s disciples that is international. (Acts 15:14)

The promise to Abraham was that “all the nations would be blessed” by the seed that would come from his descendants, so there never was an ‘exclusiveness’ that was to endure forever. Nor was a claim to belong to Abraham as a descendant, valid with regard to salvation.
John the Baptist said that ‘God could raise up children for Abraham from the stones’. (Matthew 3:7-10)

Therefore, the true Israel of today who serve God, are spiritual “Israel”, not fleshly Israel.

" [But Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”] Then they threw dice to divide his clothes. Luke 23:34

The part in brackets doesn't have very solid support as being authentic. NET translator's note: Many significant mss (P75 א1 B D* W Θ 070 579 1241 sys sa) lack v. 34a. It is included in א*,2 (A) C D2 L Ψ 0250 ƒ1,(13) 33 M lat syc,p,h. It also fits a major Lukan theme of forgiving the enemies (6:27-36), and it has a parallel in Stephen’s response in Acts 7:60. The lack of parallels in the other Gospels argues also for inclusion here. On the other hand, the fact of the parallel in Acts 7:60 may well have prompted early scribes to insert the saying in Luke’s Gospel alone. Further, there is the great difficulty of explaining why early and diverse witnesses lack the saying. A decision is difficult, but even those who regard the verse as inauthentic literarily often consider it to be authentic historically. For this reason it has been placed in single brackets in the translation.

It is followed by the phrase "Then they threw dice to divide his clothes." The logical implication is that the previous sentence refers to the Roman soldiers.

 

[Aunty Jane]

" [But Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”] Then they threw dice to divide his clothes. Luke 23:34

The part in brackets doesn't have very solid support as being authentic. NET translator's note: Many significant mss (P75 א1 B D* W Θ 070 579 1241 sys sa) lack v. 34a. It is included in א*,2 (A) C D2 L Ψ 0250 ƒ1,(13) 33 M lat syc,p,h. It also fits a major Lukan theme of forgiving the enemies (6:27-36), and it has a parallel in Stephen’s response in Acts 7:60. The lack of parallels in the other Gospels argues also for inclusion here. On the other hand, the fact of the parallel in Acts 7:60 may well have prompted early scribes to insert the saying in Luke’s Gospel alone. Further, there is the great difficulty of explaining why early and diverse witnesses lack the saying. A decision is difficult, but even those who regard the verse as inauthentic literarily often consider it to be authentic historically. For this reason it has been placed in single brackets in the translation.

It is followed by the phrase "Then they threw dice to divide his clothes." The logical implication is that the previous sentence refers to the Roman soldiers.

Yes, it was prophesied that they would cast lots over Jesus’ clothing, so logically it was the Roman soldiers. (Psalms 22:18)

We can put the ‘forgiveness’ thing to bed regardless, because the Jews as a nation disqualified themselves by rejecting their Messiah, and plotting to have him murdered.....and we have Jesus’ own words regarding their final outcome.....(Matthew 23:13, 33) ”Gehenna” was pretty serious to a Jew......it wasn’t “hell” however, because the ancient Jews had no belief in ‘heaven and hell’ as opposite destinations. They understood Jesus’ words to mean that eternal death awaited those in “Gehenna”....they would never qualify for a resurrection, which was a restoration of life here on earth, rather than a continuation of it in the spirit realm. There was no belief in an immortal soul....that was adopted later from pagan Greek ideas.

Those promised a spiritual resurrection like Jesus, had a specific role in heaven as “joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17).....as “kings and priests” ruling over redeemed mankind on earth, restoring God's original purpose for this earth. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4)

The Jews always believed that the Kingdom of God would be earthly and they would be the “kingdom of priests and a holy nation”......but that was only a dream on their part since they could never remain faithful and obedient to their God for long. By the time Jesus arrived, the Jewish leadership was so corrupt that God didn’t send his son to them...but to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.....to those who were “lost” because their shepherds were negligent and accountable for it.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I always read this as forgiveness for all mankind. I also see this as less of a prayer and more of a blessing. Jesus is fulfilling his purpose as savior.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I always read this as forgiveness for all mankind. I also see this as less of a prayer and more of a blessing. Jesus is fulfilling his purpose as savior.

The fact is that God is not going to forgive the vast majority of mankind because, to qualify for forgiveness of our sins, we first have to acknowledge them and repent whole heartedly, accepting Jesus as our savior and trying our best to obey all of his teachings from that day forward......yet, according to Jesus, "many" are going to claim him as their "Lord" at the judgment, but he is going to reject them as 'lawbreakers'. He will say that he "never knew" them. (Matthew 7:21-23) "Never" means "not ever". How is that possible?

Any notion that unrepentant sinners will qualify for salvation is wishful thinking. The inconvenient truth dispels all convenient falsehoods.....but only if we read God's word with an open heart.....one that is moldable by the great Potter.

A "new personality" is required and that means stripping off all of our bad habits and replacing them with good ones. This requires honesty and a genuine desire to please our Heavenly Father, rather than to justify keeping old personality traits in the closet in order to put them back on again when times get stressful. Our Christianity is not something we "do".....its something we "are" 24/7.

Does this mean we have to be perfect? Not at all because God knows better than anyone what sin does to us....we have the sacrifice of Christ to cover sins if we repent and try not to repeat our mistakes. What God will not forgive is willful and deliberate sin once we know what God requires of his worshippers. That means we are no longer ignorant....and are accountable.

 

[Raccoon1010]

The fact is that God is not going to forgive the vast majority of mankind because, to qualify for forgiveness of our sins, we first have to acknowledge them and repent whole heartedly, accepting Jesus as our savior and trying our best to obey all of his teachings from that day forward......yet, according to Jesus, "many" are going to claim him as their "Lord" at the judgment, but he is going to reject them as 'lawbreakers'. He will say that he "never knew" them. (Matthew 7:21-23) "Never" means "not ever". How is that possible?

Any notion that unrepentant sinners will qualify for salvation is wishful thinking. The inconvenient truth dispels all convenient falsehoods.....but only if we read God's word with an open heart.....one that is moldable by the great Potter.

A "new personality" is required and that means stripping off all of our bad habits and replacing them with good ones. This requires honesty and a genuine desire to please our Heavenly Father, rather than to justify keeping old personality traits in the closet in order to put them back on again when times get stressful. Our Christianity is not something we "do".....its something we "are" 24/7.

Does this mean we have to be perfect? Not at all because God knows better than anyone what sin does to us....we have the sacrifice of Christ to cover sins if we repent and try not to repeat our mistakes. What God will not forgive is willful and deliberate sin once we know what God requires of his worshippers. That means we are no longer ignorant....and are accountable.

This sounds good and is coherent with a lot of scripture. Together with that we also have the parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector. Those who humble themselves may be justified even if they are sinners. So there is perhaps more to that story.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This sounds good and is coherent with a lot of scripture. Together with that we also have the parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector. Those who humble themselves may be justified even if they are sinners. So there is perhaps more to that story.

Yes, the story was, that at the temple, the Pharisee began praying to God this way: ‘O God, I thank you that I am not a sinner like other people. I do not cheat people or do other bad things. I am not like that tax collector over there. I am a righteous man. I go without food twice a week so that I have more time to think about you. And I give to the temple a tenth of all the things that I get.’
The Pharisee really thought that he was better than that "sinner"....and he told God about it too. We can only image God's reaction.

But the tax collector was not like that. He would not even raise his eyes toward heaven when he prayed. He kept standing at a distance with his head bowed. The tax collector was very sorry about his sins, and he beat his chest in grief. He did not try to tell God how good he was. Rather, he prayed: ‘O God, be kind to me a sinner.’
Jesus asked...'Which of these two men do you think was pleasing to God? I tell you, this man went down to his home and was proved more righteous than that Pharisee. Because "everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”'

It wasn't about the extent of the sinfulness but each man's attitude towards it. The Pharisee thought he was perfect and recounted to God all the things he did under the Law....but the tax collector (viewed as a sinner by the Jews because they were taking money for the Roman government, and often pocketing money for themselves) was aware of his sins and was humbly expressing sincere regret over them, hoping that God might forgive him. If the man was aware of his sins and was asking God's forgiveness, then we can assume that if his repentance was genuine, he may have been like Matthew who became an apostle. He promised Jesus that he would make good all the money he stole from his Jewish brothers.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Yes, the story was, that at the temple, the Pharisee began praying to God this way: ‘O God, I thank you that I am not a sinner like other people. I do not cheat people or do other bad things. I am not like that tax collector over there. I am a righteous man. I go without food twice a week so that I have more time to think about you. And I give to the temple a tenth of all the things that I get.’
The Pharisee really thought that he was better than that "sinner"....and he told God about it too. We can only image God's reaction.

But the tax collector was not like that. He would not even raise his eyes toward heaven when he prayed. He kept standing at a distance with his head bowed. The tax collector was very sorry about his sins, and he beat his chest in grief. He did not try to tell God how good he was. Rather, he prayed: ‘O God, be kind to me a sinner.’
Jesus asked...'Which of these two men do you think was pleasing to God? I tell you, this man went down to his home and was proved more righteous than that Pharisee. Because "everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”'

It wasn't about the extent of the sinfulness but each man's attitude towards it. The Pharisee thought he was perfect and recounted to God all the things he did under the Law....but the tax collector (viewed as a sinner by the Jews because they were taking money for the Roman government, and often pocketing money for themselves) was aware of his sins and was humbly expressing sincere regret over them, hoping that God might forgive him. If the man was aware of his sins and was asking God's forgiveness, then we can assume that if his repentance was genuine, he may have been like Matthew who became an apostle. He promised Jesus that he would make good all the money he stole from his Jewish brothers.

Yes and we have written that all unrighteousness is sin. So I can't help but wonder how many sinners think they are not sinning by keeping only the commandments?:

1 John 5:17

King James Version


17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

 

[BeyondET]

Luk 23:33-34 "And when they were come to the place, which is called
Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the malefactors, one on the right
hand, and the other on the left. Then Said Jesus, Father, Forgive them;
for they know not what they do. And they parted His raiment, and cast lots."​

"...In Luke_23:33 we read the stark reality of what the world, both Jews and
Gentiles, did to The LORD Jesus Christ, very God from eternity past to eternity
future. They took the sinless Son of God and crucified Him on a Roman cross
of execution!

Israel had looked for a “Moses” leader (Deut. 18:15-19) who would wield His
shepherd’s staff and get Israel released from Gentile bondage and servitude.
Moses told Pharaoh “let my people go!” And even though Pharaoh hesitated
and later regretted the act, Pharaoh let the nation of Israel go. We read about
this in the Old Testament, and how Israel looked for another who would be like
Moses and tell the Gentiles (Romans) let my people go!...
"
(J Harley)

FULL study:
Father Forgive them

View attachment 25078

GRACE And Peace...

Possibly leading by example

Matthew 5
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes and we have written that all unrighteousness is sin. So I can't help but wonder how many sinners think they are not sinning by keeping only the commandments?:

1 John 5:17

King James Version


17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

I think that like the Pharisees, some can get carried away with what NOT to do and forget that there is a "TO DO" list as well.
Matthew7:21-23 is Jesus telling "Christians" what they have failed TO DO.....so what is "the will of the Father"?

1 John 5:16-17 ESV...
"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death."

It appears that there is sin...and there is SIN.....one is pardonable (not leading to death) but the other is not. So all wrongdoing is sin, but the gravity of the sin determines the severity of the penalty. God's law always reflected this...

 

[Raccoon1010]

I think that like the Pharisees, some can get carried away with what NOT to do and forget that there is a "TO DO" list as well.
Matthew7:21-23 is Jesus telling "Christians" what they have failed TO DO.....so what is "the will of the Father"?

1 John 5:16-17 ESV...
"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death."

It appears that there is sin...and there is SIN.....one is pardonable (not leading to death) but the other is not. So all wrongdoing is sin, but the gravity of the sin determines the severity of the penalty. God's law always reflected this...

Yes. The sheep and goats (Mathew 25:31-46) spells out a lot of what people will go to hell for for not helping others. It goes well beyond the 10 commandments. This is why I like the Catholic form of confession. I see everyone as sinners and all need to repent daily.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes. The sheep and goats (Mathew 25:31-46) spells out a lot of what people will go to hell for for not helping others. It goes well beyond the 10 commandments. This is why I like the Catholic form of confession. I see everyone as sinners and all need to repent daily.

Actually Jesus said to confess your sins to one another, and to God. (James 5:16) No man on earth has the authority to forgive sins, which is why we would never accept 'absolution' from a fellow sinner.....

We can take our sins to God through the mediator that he provided......Jesus Christ. If the sin is a serious one, the appointed elders have authority to judge within the congregation and to deal with unrepentant sinners. Forgiveness comes from God after "the fruits of repentance" are evident. (1 Corinthians 5:9-12)

 

[EloyCraft]

Who was it that Jesus asked his Father to forgive?

We know that it wasn’t the Jewish leaders who had orchestrated his arrest......and it wasn’t those who had cried out for his death before Pilate.
Jesus had already consigned the wicked Pharisees to “Gehenna”, and the Jews who supported their wickedness had already cursed themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 23:13, 33; Matthew 27:25; Matthew 21:42-43)

That only leaves the Roman soldiers who were oblivious as to who Jesus actually was. To them, he was just another Jew among two others, whom they were instructed to execute as lawbreakers. They were the ones who cast lots for his garment.

Only a “remnant” of fleshly Israel would be saved as it was foretold in their scripture. That was the minority of Jews (“the lost sheep”) who came to Christ.

“even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” (Romans 9:24-28 - ESV)

“Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. (Matthew 21:42-45 - ESV)

So there is no scriptural evidence that God will ever save the nation of natural Israel, because these will never acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah......they see him as a false Messiah just as much today, as their forefathers did back in the first century.
God chose a new nation to replace them....”the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) whom Paul identified as both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

We also see today that many Jews who make the concession and acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, still refuse to give up their “Jewishness” by calling themselves “Christians”. That is a form of national pride that has no place in a body of Christ’s disciples that is international. (Acts 15:14)

The promise to Abraham was that “all the nations would be blessed” by the seed that would come from his descendants, so there never was an ‘exclusiveness’ that was to endure forever. Nor was a claim to belong to Abraham as a descendant, valid with regard to salvation.
John the Baptist said that ‘God could raise up children for Abraham from the stones’. (Matthew 3:7-10)

Therefore, the true Israel of today who serve God, are spiritual “Israel”, not fleshly Israel.

Well Aunty Jane
You forgot the criminals on His right and left drinking the cup He drinks. Maybe it was them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well Aunty Jane
You forgot the criminals on His right and left drinking the cup He drinks. Maybe it was them.

Excuse me but you will have to clarify that statement. What "cup" were they drinking that Christ was drinking?
They had earned their penalty as one of them stated......he also said that Jesus was not deserving of his penalty.
Luke 23:39-43....
"Then one of the criminals hanging there began to speak abusively to him, saying: “You are the Christ, are you not? Save yourself and us too!” 40 In response the other rebuked him, saying: “Do you not fear God at all, now that you have received the same judgment? 41 And we rightly so, for we are getting back what we deserve for the things we did; but this man did nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

 

[Robert Gwin]

Luk 23:33-34 "And when they were come to the place, which is called
Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the malefactors, one on the right
hand, and the other on the left. Then Said Jesus, Father, Forgive them;
for they know not what they do. And they parted His raiment, and cast lots."​

"...In Luke_23:33 we read the stark reality of what the world, both Jews and
Gentiles, did to The LORD Jesus Christ, very God from eternity past to eternity
future. They took the sinless Son of God and crucified Him on a Roman cross
of execution!

Israel had looked for a “Moses” leader (Deut. 18:15-19) who would wield His
shepherd’s staff and get Israel released from Gentile bondage and servitude.
Moses told Pharaoh “let my people go!” And even though Pharaoh hesitated
and later regretted the act, Pharaoh let the nation of Israel go. We read about
this in the Old Testament, and how Israel looked for another who would be like
Moses and tell the Gentiles (Romans) let my people go!...
"
(J Harley)

FULL study:
Father Forgive them

View attachment 25078

GRACE And Peace...

We certainly desire that Grace, Jesus added that they knew not what they do. If a person truly acts in ignorance, we pray for God's mercy to extend to them, but know this His mercy and patience is limited Jn 16:2