"The word was a god"?

[PinSeeker]

yada yada (again)...

Thank you for all your research. But for you, it's really all a self-fulfilled prophecy, so to speak. If you approach a thing with the preconceived notion of denying it, you're going to to end up doing so. It's a "Whether you think you're going to succeed or fail, you're probably right" sort of thing.

yada yada...

Uh... yeah. :)

yada yada (again)...

"Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, 'Do you believe in the Son of Man?' He (the man born blind but just made to see by Jesus) answered, 'And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?' Jesus said to him, 'You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.' He (the formerly blind man) said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped Him. Jesus said, 1For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind."
John 9:35-39]

"So the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.'”
[John 10:24-30]

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
[Matthew 7:21-23]

As for the latter...right back at you.

yada yada...

Yes, certainly, keep up the "good" JW "fight." :)

Hey, to all of you, by "yada, yada," I don't mean to offend but just to acknowledge that you said some things.

Okay, I'm just going to dismiss all of the... "stuff" :)... above for various reasons. On to the next clean page; a good breaking point I think. :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have an idea; let's talk about what we agree on ~ I think it would be quite a lot, even without really changing the subject ~ instead of what we disagree on, at least for a time.

Okay, so if you're game, let's start out with a simple question ~ actually compound, I guess... :) Any response one offers can be as long as desired, of course, but I think it needn't be long. So, the question(s):

Who in the Bible did God make covenants with, and what were they about?

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Pierac]

I do have a clue. I have quoted several clues from the Bible for you, but you seem to ignore them or totally fail to understand them. You don't believe what the Bible teaches about Jesus.

Really... you have quoted clues??? Then Let's... let the beginning of the Church at Pentecost .... tell us the truth...

What was the first message ever preached... after Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead???

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

OK keithr... Do you believe what Peter said in the Bible??? Jesus was a man used by God...?

Do you believe scripture when even our Lord and King tells you the truth???

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

So do you really believe scripture..... I think NOT!!!

To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated.

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one
God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

Hope this helps you believe scripture...
Paul

 

[Wrangler]

Thank you for all your research. But for you, it's really all a self-fulfilled prophecy, so to speak. If you approach a thing with the preconceived notion of denying it, you're going to to end up doing so. It's a "Whether you think you're going to succeed or fail, you're probably right" sort of thing.

Sure, if you are a simpleton. A more intellectually responsible and sophisticated way to look at it is:

Putting aside the debate of what doctrines the Bible 'supports,' my focus was on the mocking Spirit of the debator.

Given any controversial statement of significance, it deserves careful consideration. Be it that 9/11 Tower 7 was an inside job, there was no connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq or the 2020 Presidential election was stolen and so forth. Being an educated citizenry, we ought to expect one another and ourselves to dispassionately consider the arguments for and against the premise. Furthermore, we ought to be able to admit the relative strength and weakness of these arguments. Finally, we have to tolerate doubt!

That is to say, as sophisticated 21st century humans, we ought to be mature enough to recognize the need to come to a conclusion, while not needing to castigate all evidence in support of the alternative conclusion. It is OK to have a 60-40 split or even 80-20 split. Perhaps I should add a 3rd split. One for Pro. One for Con. Another for doubt, the flip side of faith.

For instance trinitarians can and do point to a couple of verses were God uses a plural pronoun. While, I agree this does not offset the 5,000 times God is referred to using a singular pronoun, it does not have to be castigated or explained. Again, I'm using this as an example. If pursued, it may be explainable but my point is effectively functioning in an environment of doubt is also OK. Indeed, most of the time, effectively functioning in an environment of doubt is part of the human condition. This doubt allows faith to flourish. We are called to have faith, not to be know-it-alls.

What I've seen in my life is the polarization of human judgment. This is happening on all topics. It shows the dumbing down of America. People are too confident in their conclusions. Too quick to dismiss those who weigh the available evidence differently. And ultimately, denigrate image bearers of God by resorting to mockery. Let's pray. And let's pray for our (intellectual, theological, political) enemies.

And I do truly want to know what you think about the trend of polarization of human judgment.

 

[Wrangler]

I have an idea; let's talk about what we agree on ~ I think it would be quite a lot, even without really changing the subject ~ instead of what we disagree on, at least for a time.

Isn't that what new threads are for?

Grace and peace to all.

You replaced the thoughtful replies of not 1 but 4 posters with 'Yada, yada' and have the chutzpah to end with 'grace and peace?' Sir. Your posts lack both and it seems your ego requires you to have the last word. So be it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Sure, if you are a simpleton. A more intellectually responsible and sophisticated way to look at it is...

Ah, "sophisticated," I see... :) Well, let's analyze it, mixed bag or hodgepodge (or both) that it is, a bit:

Actually, I think it was Aunty Jane who said this, despite your post quoting you, and you just agreed with it, right? Not that that's important, but just as a point of order.

* "my focus was on the mocking Spirit of the debator"

Were you looking in the mirror when she/you said this? ​

* "Given any controversial statement of significance, it deserves careful consideration. Be it that 9/11 Tower 7 was an inside job, there was no connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq or the 2020 Presidential election was stolen and so forth."

Ah, yes, let's try to make a direct correlation of (quoting Hillary Rodham Clinton) vast conspiracy theories of various kinds to the triune nature of God. Now that's sophistication for you... :) Whoops, mocking a bit. Apologies, but well, it is what it is. And it is in response to a mocking.​

* "Being an educated citizenry, we ought to expect one another and ourselves to dispassionately consider the arguments for and against the premise. Furthermore, we ought to be able to admit the relative strength and weakness of these arguments."

This I agree with. But it seems empty coming from her/you, because you do not do any such thing regarding your own arguments, and only attribute weakness (to put it very mildly) to mine. That's okay with me, I'm not bothered by it, but (again) it is what it is.​

* "Finally, we have to tolerate doubt! That is to say, as sophisticated 21st century humans, we ought to be mature enough to recognize the need to come to a conclusion, while not needing to castigate all evidence in support of the alternative conclusion."

Nobody's "castigating" any evidence. Such a supposition is ridiculous, and doesn't even make sense, as evidence cannot be castigated, as in reprimanded severely. It would make sense to say no person should be castigated for supporting some conclusion about this or that, and that no one should be judged in the sense of condemnation and/or damnation for such. None of us are able to actually do that anyway; only God, as the one righteous Judge, can do that, and for any one of us to presume to do so is egregious sin.​

* "It is OK to have a 60-40 split or even 80-20 split. Perhaps I should add a 3rd split. One for Pro. One for Con. Another for doubt, the flip side of faith."

Ugh. I mean it's okay to disagree. I have no idea how many times I've said, "okay, we'll agree to disagree," but it's been quite a lot.​

* "For instance trinitarians can and do point to a couple of verses were God uses a plural pronoun. While, I agree this does not offset the 5,000 times God is referred to using a singular pronoun, it does not have to be castigated or explained."

Again with the "castigation" thing; see above. "Explained"? Well... despite the ratio being way off :) ...when anyone agrees with two seemingly opposite things, as Aunty Jane and you do here (and I do, too, actually), then some explanation must be given, some resolution made, without dismissing or discrediting either one, else that one contradict herself/himself. This is what we all ought to recognize. But what I see that very thing happening over and over again ~ totally dismissing one in favor of the other ~ and it most assuredly is not me doing that.​

* Again, I'm using this as an example. If pursued, it may be explainable...

As if no one has done that? Really? As it is, any and all explanation has been rejected, several times over. Again, fine with me, but it is what it is.​

* ...but my point is effectively functioning in an environment of doubt is also OK. Indeed, most of the time, effectively functioning in an environment of doubt is part of the human condition. This doubt allows faith to flourish. We are called to have faith, not to be know-it-alls."

Faith is not blind. Else we would not be called to walk by it. :) Right? But yes, faith is a gift of God (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 2), and apportioned to each of those whom God calls according to His will (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12). If our faith grows, it is because it is God at work in us, increasing our faith, which is the God-given assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). As for "know-it-alls," there's plenty of that to go around, here, too. :) This is a debate forum, after all. :)​

* What I've seen in my life is the polarization of human judgment. This is happening on all topics. It shows the dumbing down of America. People are too confident in their conclusions. Too quick to dismiss those who weigh the available evidence differently. And ultimately, denigrate image bearers of God by resorting to mockery."

This is very much a mixed bag. I would agree with the polarization thing, as I said, but it's not new, really, just the awareness of it has increased over the years, especially recently ~ since the late 20th century especially. Dumbing down? I disagree with that. People too confident in their conclusions? Well, I think really the better way to say it is that so many different things have have become zero-sum games, and thus in many cases a militant refusal to discuss conclusions, and so because of that, yes, too quick to dismiss those who weigh the available evidence differently.​

* Let's pray. And let's pray for our (intellectual, theological, political) enemies.

Agreed.​

In conclusion... see what I did there? :)... not so sophisticated after all. Not to insult anyone's intelligence, because I would be very hesitant to call anyone here unintelligent to any degree, really. But what she/you said here, yes, a mixed bag, like I said, and now have shown.

And I do truly want to know what you think about the trend of polarization of human judgment.

Ah yes, I'm sure you truly want to know...

Eh... It's always been there. Like the writer of Ecclesiastes says regarding sin, there is nothing new under the sun. Is it becoming more and more evident to all, especially with mass communication and the internet? Sure. And I think there is very much a spiritual aspect to it; the Holy Spirit is assuredly making differences in human judgments/thinking/beliefs starker and starker as time goes by. So, sure. But I would disagree that the trend is only recent. :)

PinSeeker: I have an idea; let's talk about what we agree on ~ I think it would be quite a lot, even without really changing the subject ~ instead of what we disagree on, at least for a time.​

Isn't that what new threads are for?

Well, maybe in some cases, but you might note that in my statement here, I said "even without really changing the subject," so in this case, I think not. If you're not game, then so be it.

You replaced the thoughtful replies of not 1 but 4 posters with 'Yada, yada' and have the chutzpah to end with 'grace and peace?'

Sure; as I said in that post, "...by "yada, yada," I don't mean to offend but just to acknowledge that you said some things."

Sir. Your posts lack both...

I said I didn't mean to offend, hoping to head any sense of offense or belittlement off. But so be it. And you can rest assured that sentiment regarding my posts, while I think for the most part is unfounded, is very much mutual.

...and it seems your ego requires you to have the last word. So be it.

Ah, no passive aggressiveness there, right? :) Actually, I tried to renew the conversation and invited you to join. Yeah, so here, I'll do it again:

I have an idea; let's talk about what we agree on ~ I think it would be quite a lot, even without really changing the subject ~ instead of what we disagree on, at least for a time. Okay, so if you're game, let's start out with a simple question ~ actually compound, I guess... :) Any response one offers can be as long as desired, of course, but I think it needn't be long. So, the question(s):

Who in the Bible did God make covenants with, and what were they about?​

If you decline, then sure, like you say, so be it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not bothered by it

Then why are you posting in this thread?

 

[keithr]

Really... you have quoted clues??? Then Let's... let the beginning of the Church at Pentecost .... tell us the truth...

You're digressing again!

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

OK keithr... Do you believe what Peter said in the Bible??? Jesus was a man used by God...?

Yes, I believe what Peter said.

Do you believe scripture when even our Lord and King tells you the truth???

Yes, I do.

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

So do you really believe scripture..... I think NOT!!

You're wrong. I do believe what Jesus said. He was a man - he had been from his human birth right up until his death. Since his resurrection he has not been a man; he is now a spirit being having the same divine nature as God. What I started discussing (which you keep trying to move away from!) is "did Jesus exist before his human birth?"

Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus.

John Darby's Bible Notes says:

A particular interpretation has, by some, been given to the word "aion" translated "worlds;" but it is certain that the word is used by the LXX-Septuagint (that is, in Hellenistic or scriptural Greek) for the physical worlds.​

Either way, if God made the ages through Jesus then Jesus must have existed from the beginning, because ages includes all of the ages up until the present aswell as the ages to come. Young's Literal Translation says, "through whom also He did make the ages", which effectively means 'all that, in successive periods of time, has come to pass, has come to pass through him'.

 

[Wrangler]

Since his resurrection he has not been a man; he is now a spirit being

I thought Jesus was resurrected bodily. What Scripture verse says that Jesus - and us - will be resurrected into a spirit being?

 

[Pierac]

John Darby's Bible Notes says:

A particular interpretation has, by some, been given to the word "aion" translated "worlds;" but it is certain that the word is used by the LXX-Septuagint (that is, in Hellenistic or scriptural Greek) for the physical worlds.​

Either way, if God made the ages through Jesus then Jesus must have existed from the beginning, because ages includes all of the ages up until the present aswell as the ages to come. Young's Literal Translation says, "through whom also He did make the ages", which effectively means 'all that, in successive periods of time, has come to pass, has come to pass through him'.

You have much to learn!!!

“Let us look at how the word aion is used in a number of passages. About 37 times in the New Testament it is rendered "world," twice as "worlds," twice as "ages," and once as "course." Every place where the word "eternal" appears, with but one exception, it is a translation of this word AION or its adjective form AIONIOS. Twice it is rendered "evermore." Every place where the word "everlasting" appears, but one, it is this same word or its adjective form. With but thirteen exceptions, every place where the word "ever" appears it is the same word or its adjective form. And aside from all this confusion, the word also appears in the plural, and in a number of confusing combinations, such as "the aion of the aion," "the aion of the aions," and "the aions of the aions," etc.

Some of the passages where AION is found will give us added information concerning it.

In Eph. 2:7 we find, "in the ages (aions) to come."

In Col. 1:26 we find, "the mystery which has been hid from ages (aions). "

In Eph. 2:2 we find "you walked, according to the course aion of this world."

In Heb. 1:2 we find, "by whom also He made the worlds (aions)."

In Heb. 11:3 we find, "the worlds (aions) were formed by the Word of God."

In about fifteen instances, such as Mat. 12:32,1 Cor. 1:20, etc., we find it rendered "this world (aion)". Twice we find "this present world (aion). "

In Gal. 1:4 we find, "deliver us from this present evil world (aion)."

In Eph. 6:12 we find, "the rulers of the darkness of this world (aion)."

In 11 Cor. 4:4 we find, "the god of this world (aion)."

In I Cor. 2:6 we find, "the wisdom of this world (aion)."

In Lk. 16:8 we find, "the children of this world (aion)."

In Mk. 4:19 we find, "the cares of this world (aion)."

How much more understandable it would be if the translators had used the word age instead of world!

In Mk. 10:30 we find that there is not only this present aion, which is evil, but also "the world (aion) to come."

In Lk. 20:35 we find, "but they that shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage."

In Heb. 6:5 we find, "and have tasted the powers of the world (aion) to come."

And in Lk. 1:70, Jn. 9:32, etc., we find that the aion had a beginning: "since the world (aion) began."

And now in reviewing the Scriptures we have just quoted, we note that this aion is something which has a king; it has princes; it is in darkness; it had a beginning; it has an ending; it is evil; it has wisdom; it has children who marry; it has cares. The aions we find were made by Christ, simply through His spoken Word, and we also find in Col. 1:26 that the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory, has been hidden from these aions.

Now, if aion means eternal, consider how ridiculous the Word of God would be! The Holy Spirit would be found saying, "the mystery which has been hid from eternities;" "the mystery of Christ which in other eternities was not made known;" "in the eternities to come;" "You walked according to the eternity of this world;" "by whom also He made the eternities;" "the rulers of the darkness of this eternity;" "now once in the end of the eternities has He appeared;" "the harvest is the end of the eternity;" "since eternity began;" "in the eternities to come," etc. etc. Let the scholars whose business it is delve into the many intricacies of expression, and worry over the many grammatical combinations. Suffice it to say here that there have been "aions" in the past, there is this present "aion," and there are "aions" to come. And these all combined make up TIME, encompassing the whole of the progressive plan and program of God for the development of His creation.

Our King James version renders it, together with the adjective aionios as: "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture! “

Now.... You say.... (Jesus must have existed from the beginning)

Beginning of what? God has no beginning...yet Jesus does!!!


Paul

 

[Wrangler]

You have much to learn!!!

I wish the acrimony on this thread could be toned down. We are brothers in Christ, united by faith, not putting each other's knowledge down.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: I'm not bothered by it...​

Then why are you posting in this thread?

LOL! Ah, more passive aggressiveness... :) You're ticked off; I get it. Okay, again, sorry to have offended.

But to answer your question (though you won't or can't do the same; no problem, you're obviously not alone in that), probably for about the same reasons as you, Wrangler. And because I'm... not bothered... like I said... :)

I wish the acrimony on this thread could be toned down. We are brothers in Christ, united by faith, not putting each other's knowledge down.

That's an excellent thought, Wrangler. I agree; I've wished that in several threads, including this one. Maybe you can start with yourself.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Pierac]

I wish the acrimony on this thread could be toned down. We are brothers in Christ, united by faith, not putting each other's knowledge down.

Then your missing what Jesus did in spades!!! What was Jesus favorite word... in Matthew??? Yea.... Vipers...

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 12:34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

Mat 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Luk 3:7 So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

I agree Wrangler.... Jesus could toned down all that the acrimony in Matthew and Luke but He did not do that!

YET... Jesus lived among... An Energetic People, a Descriptive Language
In Hebrew grammar, the position of emphasis is usually the beginning of the clause. Unfortunately, our English translation of the Hebrew text does not always reveal this emphasis. So it should not be forgotten that Hebrew-unlike English-usually confronts the listener or reader immediately with a verbal form (often a transitive verb, but sometimes an intransitive or “stative” form) even before the subject itself is designated.

Laziness, inertia, or passivity were hardly marks of the Hebrews’ lifestyle. Rather, the Hebrews were mainly a doing and feeling people. Thus their language has few abstract terms. Rather, "Hebrew may be called primarily a language of the senses. The words originally express concrete or material things and movements or actions which struck the senses or started the emotions. Only secondary and in metaphor could they be used to denote abstract or metaphysical ideas." The Bible contains many Hebraisms in which abstract thoughts or immaterial conceptions are conveyed through material or physical terminology. We shall give number of examples to illustrate this point: "look" is "lift up the eyes" (Gen. 22:4); "be angry" is "burned in one's nostrils" (Exod.4:14); "disclose something to another" or "reveal" is "unstopped someone's ears" (Ruth 4:4); "have no compassion" is "hard-heartedness" (1Sam.6:6); "stubborn" is "stiff-necked"
(2 Chr.30:8;cf.Acts 7:51). In addition, the Hebrews often referred to God by use of anthropomorphisms (i.e., representation of God with human attributes). The "living" and "active" God of the Hebrews is thus never reduced to mere impersonal abstraction. For instance, the 10 Commandments are said to be "inscribed by the finger of God" (Exo.31:18). The prophet Isaiah states, "surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save, nor his ear to dull to hear" (Isa. 59:1).

Again, a well-known proverb states, "the eyes of the Lord are everywhere" (Prov.15:3). In the same vein, today's Church must not forget that the earliest theology in the New Testament is relational or existential rather than propositional or creedal.

The New Testament reflects this same visceral Hebraic perspective on human nature. A person may be lead with his heart (Rom. 10:10). One may refresh spiritually the bowels [heart]of other believers (Phlm. 7, 20). A person may come under the judgment of God when the Lord searches his kidneys [mind](Rev. 2:23). (Used e-Sword to review strong numbers in these verses.) Very suprising. These texts illustrate that for the New Testament authors passion was tied to their belief that human beings were "whole"; that is they considered one's physical, psychological, and spiritual functions to be one indivisible entity. Both Testaments affirm this perspective, as seen in the above passages. They describe a person's various mental, spiritual, and emotional reactions to stress by locating these reactions in the organs of the body were a person actually feels the effects of that stress. The Hebrews-both men and women-were able to affirm their full humanity. They gave vent unashamedly to their feelings, for each emotion had "a time" appropriate for its expression: being angry, crying, laughing, singing, feasting, dancing, handclapping, shouting, embracing, and loving (see Eccl. 3:1- 8).

The nature of Hebrew is to paint verbal pictures with broad strokes of the brush. Theirs was primarily a descriptive of what the eyes see rather than what the mind speculates. Let us consider several examples of this earthiness. The prophecy of Isaiah describes graphically the intended fate of the people of Jerusalem. Trapped in the year 701 B.C. by the powerful Assyrian army of Sennacherib, they are described as those who have to "eat their own filth and drink their own urine"

(Isaiah 36:12). Though Jerusalem was miraculously spared this Assyrian attack (Isaiah 37;cf.2 Kgs. 19), more than a century later (586 B.C.) Babylon destroyed Jerusalem. Jeremiah was one of the leading prophets of the Southern Kingdom at the time. With the same candor as Isaiah, Jeremiah depicts sorrowfully the acts of cannibalism performed by his own people as Jerusalem was brought to the very brink of starvation: "with their own hands and passionate women have cooked their own children, who became their food when my people were destroyed"
(Lam. 4:10; cf. Deut 28: 53-57). Against the background of their Babylonian exile God's people are described as sinful and unclean, who is "righteous acts are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6).

However, the Hebrew for "filthy rags" is far more explicit, reflecting the Hebrews vivid, earthly style of expression. It is beged iddim, literally "garment of menstruation." In similarity graphic words, Jeremiah likens Israel's sexual excesses as Canaanite shrines to that of a female wild
donkey in heat: "[You are] a wild donkey accustomed to the desert, sniffing the wind in her craving-in her heat who can restrain her? Any males that pursue her need not to tire themselves; at mating time they will find her" (Jer. 2:24).

Such vivid biblical imagery reminds us that the Hebrew people live close to nature; they were not afraid to face head on those areas of life that people in the West world would normally either euphemistically or avoid discussing altogether.
Glad to help...Paul

 

[Wrangler]

Then your missing

Because your yelling, I cannot hear you.

Make a Blessed Day!

 

[Pierac]

Because your yelling, I cannot hear you.

Make a Blessed Day!

Yelling you have no idea...Get ready for the yell of your life.... I told you so!!!

Still can't hear can you...

Paul

 

[keithr]

I thought Jesus was resurrected bodily. What Scripture verse says that Jesus - and us - will be resurrected into a spirit being?

In return I will ask, what verse says that Jesus was resurrected as a human?

Jesus is in heaven, sat at the right hand of God, and no human can exist in heaven. As the apostle Paul said, in 1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

In order to get into heaven we must be changed, and will no longer have a human flesh and blood body, we will have a spirit being body. We have no idea what that will be like (it probably involves existing in more dimensions than we have access to in the physical universe in which we currently live). But as 1 John 3:2 (WEB) says:

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

We will be like Jesus - no longer having a human body. 2 Peter 1:4 (WEB):

(4) by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.​

Jesus now has the divine nature, similar to God.

 

[keithr]

That's an excellent thought, Wrangler. I agree; I've wished that in several threads, including this one.

The following post was posted before I started posting on Christianity Board, but many current posters would benefit from reading it - A Call for Calm.

 

[keithr]

How much more understandable it would be if the translators had used the word age instead of world!

From the Online Bible Greek Lexicon, aion "is usually better expressed by age, it is the world at a given time, a particular period in the world’s history".

Now.... You say.... (Jesus must have existed from the beginning)

Beginning of what? God has no beginning...yet Jesus does!!!

From the beginning of the ages/worlds, or the beginning of God's creation.

 

[keithr]

Wrangler said:

I wish the acrimony on this thread could be toned down. We are brothers in Christ, united by faith, not putting each other's knowledge down.​

Then your missing what Jesus did in spades!!! What was Jesus favorite word... in Matthew??? Yea.... Vipers...

From the Cambridge Bible Notes for Luke 3:7 -

broods of vipers "described the venomous hypocrisy which turned religion itself into a vice, and hid a deadly malice under the glittering semblance of a zeal for orthodoxy. But let it be borne in mind that only teachers of transcendent holiness, and immediately inspired by God with fervency and insight, may dare to use such language."​

Matthew 11:29 (WEB):

(29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle [meek] and humble in heart; and you will find rest for your souls.​

1 Peter 3: (WEB):

(3) Let your beauty be not just the outward adorning of braiding the hair, and of wearing jewels of gold, or of putting on fine clothing;
(4) but in the hidden person of the heart, in the incorruptible adornment of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God very precious.​

Titus 3:2 (WEB):

(2) to speak evil of no one, not to be contentious, to be gentle, showing all humility toward all men.​

2 Timothy 2:24-26 (WEB):

(24) The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient,
(25) in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth,
(26) and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.​

 

[PinSeeker]

In return I will ask, what verse says that Jesus was resurrected as a human?

I know this question was directed to another poster, but no verse says precisely and woodenly, "Jesus was resurrected as a human," but there are several times in the Gospels after His resurrection when He appeared, obviously in human form ~ tangible flesh and blood ~ to many eye-witnesses, as documented by all four of the gospel writers:

• to his mother Mary and Mary Magalene and to His disciples in Matthew 28
• to Mary Magdalene in Mark 16
• to the two men on the road to Emmaus and then to His disciples in Luke 24
• to Mary Magdalene and then to His disciples ~ especially Thomas, who He had touch His wounds, and even cooking and eating bread and fish with all His disciples ~ in John 20 and 21
• to His disciples in Acts 1, where Luke actually says, "He presented Himself alive to them after His suffering by many proofs"

So, was Jesus resurrected as a human? Well, not resurrected as a mere human being (not deific) but yes. It is just astounding to me that some see it as not possible ~ even in view their belief in the virgin birth and that Mary became pregnant because the Holy Spirit came upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadowed her, as the angel Gabriel said to her (Luke 1:35) ~ to see Jesus for what he was during His earthly life and after: of man and of God... even the Son of Man and the Son of God... so both human and divine. As the writer of Hebrews says, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God...

Absolutely. Seated "at God's right hand," which means seated in (possessing in full) the power of God.

As the apostle Paul said, in 1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

​

What Paul is saying is that sinful men (and women of course) cannot inherit God's Kingdom. So we will all be changed, in a moment changed, as Paul says, into people wholly free from sin. At the resurrection we ~ our spirits, our true selves in heaven with Jesus until that time ~ will be reunited with our resurrected bodies, our bodies no longer perishable but immortal.

In order to get into heaven we must be changed...

Sure. See above.

...will no longer have a human flesh and blood body...

Ohhhh... yes we will... :) See above.

...we will have a spirit being body...

Well... <chuckle> ...we will be perfectly spiritual, of God, Who is spirit (John 4:24)

We have no idea what that will be like...

Um, well, yes and no... We can have some idea, because we can conceive of it, but it will be surely beyond what we can think or even imagine right now, certainly. So, yes, "...we are God’s children now..." but "what we will be has not yet appeared"... but for now, "...we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

Peter, in 2 Peter 1:4, is talking about our present state. As Christians, we have been "born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), (and so) by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5). So in 2 Peter 1:4, Peter is saying that Christ Jesus "has, by His divine power, granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him Who called us to His own glory and excellence, by which He has granted to us His precious and very great promises, so that through them (we) may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire." So, these promises are not yet fulfilled, and we do not yet physically have this divine nature, but we most certainly will, when Jesus returns and we are resurrected to eternal life... we will "come out... to the resurrection of life," as opposed to the others who will "come out... to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29).

Jesus now has the divine nature, similar to God.

Yes, and He always did, and always will ~ just as the Father always did and always will. Again, Jesus is unchanging. He is eternal, of eternity past and eternity future, just as the Father.

Grace and peace to you, Keith.

 

[Wrangler]

In return I will ask, what verse says that Jesus was resurrected as a human?

You are changing the frame of reference, which is being resurrected as a spirit or in a body.