"The word was a god"?
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Did you catch the word, ‘may’ as opposed to ‘shall?’ Also, not equal in one way makes them not equal. Everything is equal in some way; doesn’t make them equal.
Jesus died. God did not. Jesus was raised from the dead by God. God was not raised from the dead by Jesus. Inequality.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
The Greek "τιμῶσιν", used here is in the subjunctive mood, which is "should", not because there is any "doubt" about Jesus Christ being "Honoured", but, the fact that there are those whom will not "Honour" either Jersus or the Father. This can be seen from what Jesus says, If He is not "Honored" in the same way that the Father is, then the Father is not "Honoured". It is like faith and love, God does not "force" anyone to have faith, or to love Him, it is "conditioned" on the person. Jesus' point in John 5:23 is, those who "Honour" the Father, must also "Honour" Him in the same way; not that all will.
Versions like the NASB, HCSB, GNT, NET, etc, read, "will honor". The actual sense of what is said is not changed.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Johann wrote #515:
"You are no scholar, so leave John 1:1 and lean not unto your own understanding.
I know the urge to sound to sound [sic] sophomoric and highly intellectual and to know all the answers in the scriptures is fleshly driven, mere intellectual, stoical knowledge, acquired gnosis, so please, down with th [sic] pride and just believe what you read, and Christ Jesus IS Theos, Theos pros ho Theos.."
............................................
Why would anyone want to sound "sophomoric"?
Do you mean that I must follow the teachings of trinitarian scholars and overlook any errors they make?
I have quoted/cited a number of recognized trinitarian scholars in my study of John 1:1. If you are as educated in NT Greek as you claim, you should be able to do a scholarly examination (not just personal attack) of every aspect of my study. I expect that, instead, you will refuse with the usual excuses.
Examining the Trinity OR Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity.
Please point out the errors one by one and explain why they are wrong.
"You are no scholar, so leave John 1:1 and lean not unto your own understanding.
I know the urge to sound to sound [sic] sophomoric and highly intellectual and to know all the answers in the scriptures is fleshly driven, mere intellectual, stoical knowledge, acquired gnosis, so please, down with th [sic] pride and just believe what you read, and Christ Jesus IS Theos, Theos pros ho Theos.."
............................................
Why would anyone want to sound "sophomoric"?
Do you mean that I must follow the teachings of trinitarian scholars and overlook any errors they make?
I have quoted/cited a number of recognized trinitarian scholars in my study of John 1:1. If you are as educated in NT Greek as you claim, you should be able to do a scholarly examination (not just personal attack) of every aspect of my study. I expect that, instead, you will refuse with the usual excuses.
Examining the Trinity OR Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity.
Please point out the errors one by one and explain why they are wrong.
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tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You know what’s funny (not laughing) but strange that what Paul described, was beginning not long after Jesus sacrificed his life. The “apostasy” that Jesus and the apostles foretold, was already surfacing at the time of Paul’s writing, in the first century. (2 Thessalonians 2:3) But there was something “restraining” it from overtaking the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7)......that was because the apostle John had not finished writing the the final part of what would become the final books of the Christian scriptures.....most especially his Revelation, the various facets of which we are experiencing right now. After the end of the first century, the rot set in and has continued to this day. It was all foretold.
What you believe is a recent event, is in fact an an ancient one.....it was foretold by Daniel that “the time of the end” (which we are experiencing now) would be the time for God to “clean” up his worship....to “purify” it and “refine” it of all the impurities that centuries of gradually added spiritual “filth” had allowed God’s worship to become in Christendom. (Daniel 12:9-10)
Remember the parable of the “wheat and the weeds”? Who sowed the weeds?...and when did he sow them? Where did he sow them? And what would happen as a result of God allowing them both to “grow together” in the same “field” until it was time for the “harvest”?
By the time of the harvest, the “reapers” would already have identified the weeds in order to separate the “wheat from the weeds”.....this is a separation of the true Christians from the false ones.
How many would the appointed judge of all of us find, “doing the will” of his Father? (Matthew 7:21-23) Will it be the majority who hold onto to the false beliefs, and who have rejected the truth because it doesn’t fit what they want to believe? Not according to Jesus (Matthew 7:13-14).....it would be the “few” who recognised the truth when they heard it, and were prepared to adjust their thinking, just like the Jewish Christians had done when Jesus came to preach something that appeared to be new, but was actually a return to the true worship that they had lost.
History is clearly repeating but very few seem to recognise it. The true Christian “wheat” have separated themselves from the “weeds” by rejecting the false doctrines that were introduce centuries ago. Only at the time of the end would God reveal the truth by providing an abundance of knowledge at this time. (Daniel 12:4) This is what makes every one of us accountable....ignorance is no longer an excuse. The truth is out there, like it or not....but the majority were going to reject it, not wanting to appear to be going against what their denomination taught, making them targets of abuse....but what did Jesus say.....? He told his disciples to expect this. (John 15:18-21)
By our response to the message of truth that was to be “preached in all the inhabited earth” y an unpopular minority, (Matthew 24:14) we are showing God how much the truth is touching our heart. Those who accept it will alter their attitude and accept what is unpopular, rather than sticking with a majority who believe the lies that the devil sowed so long ago. Mob mentality is powerful.
You either see this clearly...or you have an induced “blindness” that will lead to devastating consequences. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
Confidence is no indicator of whether one has the truth....the Jews were confident enough (due to the prompting of their religious leaders) to put the Son of God to death, even cursing themselves and their children with his blood. (Matthew 27:25)
Can we learn the lessons from the past....? For the majority, apparently not.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, Star Wars actor Ewan McGregor once took a motorbike trip through Africa with a friend and at one point they stopped in Tunisia at one of the locations where a SW film was made some years previously.
As they walked around the place (below) none of the other tourists recognised him even though his picture was on the wall and his name was on his shirt. He said afterwards "I thought I'd be mobbed".
There's a similarity here with Jesus, because many people didn't realise he was the Son of God..:)
OzSpen
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Dropship,
That's your invention and it's not based on an exegesis of John 1:1. I've provided that exegesis for you and you've rejected it.
Oz
OzSpen
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Wrangler,
To the contrary, this thread is about the doctrine of the Trinity.
I have searched the Scriptures to determine the number of Persons in the Godhead. See: How to understand three persons in the Trinity
Oz
Well, I agree and disagree at the same time, which, you'll think is ludicrous, but it is what it is. You tell me this, Pierac (and I'm... quite sure... you'll have an "answer"...): Who is "sitting on the throne" ~ in quotes for a reason; that phrase gets terribly misrepresented in all these conversations, as if God is literally and bodily sitting on a big gold chair; more on that in a moment ~ in Revelation 3:21, Jesus, "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14), is speaking to the church at Laodicaea, and says, "The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also conquered and sat down with My Father on His throne." Now, how many thrones are in view, here, Pierac? And Who is sitting on... well, it or them, depending on your answer to the first question, I guess... :) Again, certainly not to presume to take the place of God, but to question you sort of in the same manner He questioned Job, tell me, if you know. :)
You know, regarding the "sitting on the throne" thing... :) I said I'd get back that in a moment, so here we are, but I guess I sort of gave away what I was going to say even then. But I'll be happy to elaborate... :) The idea of sitting on the throne, Pierac ~ in Scripture ~ is to be in power over everything, to be preeminent and sovereign over (fill in the blank). David sat on the throne of Israel in the Old Testament, but that he literally sat on a "big awesome chair" in a palace ~ or the temple (because the temple was built by son Solomon after David's passing, as I'm sure you well remember), or a tent (because the tabernacle was in the desert during the Exodus, when David was not yet born). He was in power as King over physical Israel and therefore "sitting on the throne." Likewise, but much higher of course, God the Father "sits on the throne" now (and in Revelation 5, certainly), but God is spirit, as we see in John 4:24, so He does not have a body of flesh and bone like you and me, as I hope you would acknowledge. So again, there is no "big gold chair" in heaven; God is completely sovereign over and in complete power over and control of His creation. In this way He is "sitting on the throne of grace." And this is what it means for Jesus to have ascended to His rightful place "at the right hand of God," which means "in His power," and in this sense, they are both ~ with the Holy Spirit, Who, like the wind (the Holy Spirit is not literally the wind... :)) comes and goes as He wishes, and we "do not know where (the wind) comes from or where (the wind) goes"... as it is "with everyone who is born of the Spirit" ~ "sitting on the throne."
Ah yes, "news." LOL!
See, I see that shoe ~ the ingorance one... :) ~ firmly and securely on your foot, Pierac. Well... those shoes, on both your feet. And those feet are both... well, where they're not where they usually are on people...
I agree with this. :) Yes, yes, I know, you think I'm contradicting myself... LOL!
Oh, most certainly, I do. :) I would bounce that right back at you, the "believe Jesus" part... :)
He certainly did. That, and even more momentous, really, the Son of Man.
Ah yes, John 8:40, just before He assigned the Name of God to Himself. Yes, I know the passage well, and fully acknowledge all of it for what it is.
What was it I said about shoes? :) And... you're not alone. :)
Yes, praise Jehovah indeed. To Him be the glory forever and ever. All three Persons of Him. :)
Grace and peace to all.
I accept you apology and admitting your were wrong.... Your welcome!!!
Paul
Yea.... we will! Listen to Jesus my friend.... I'm trying to help you!!!
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
And
AND, conj.
And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.
Your on the wrong team... Mr Venture!
Paul
Dropship
Well-Known Member
Let me cut to the chase and throw this question into the playpen-
Will me and others who DON'T believe Jesus was God be going to hell?..:)
Will me and others who DON'T believe Jesus was God be going to hell?..:)
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Dropship
Well-Known Member
You don't know IF you are born from above?
You don't know IF you are sealed with the Holy Spirit?
Keep on playing Star Wars.
J.
Dropship
Well-Known Member
How can anybody know for sure if they're saved? As for me, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed..:)
No doubt many like to THINK they're saved but whether they'll get past the bouncer at the pearlies remains to be seen-
Jesus said:-"Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matthew 7:21-23)
"On yer bikes you lot!"
Dropship
Well-Known Member
"O God please make me funny"..
Jesus said to lighten up..:)
"..be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" (John 16:33)
or should Christians go around looking glum?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Oops! I was going back and forth between threads. Thanks for that.
There is no ‘Godhead’ in Scripture. A bad trinitarian translation imposed its doctrine unto unitarian text.
The Gospel of John is the most anti-trinitarian book of the Bible. 17:3 Jesus explicitly says the Father is the one, true God. What do you make of this verse?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Faith isn’t about knowledge. To claim knowledge on this is a lack of humility, it seems.
My pastor said what separates belief from faith is action. I’m not saying we are saved by our own action. Rather, action is the manifestation of true faith.
Hope this helps.
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