The Problem with Salvation

[APAK]

I can see your point of view.



Does this mean what it sounds like? It sounds to me like you agree with my OP. If I misunderstand you then let me know so I may edit this post accordingly.

I somewhat agree with your Post, especially if you made some other assertions, and included more examples, and not with insertions of a phrase like 'by definition' of a Christian, or the 'ultimate' in egotism. Absolute type statement like this can get anyone in trouble and they really have to defend it with an airtight alibi. In other words you have to be right, and get ready for incoming fire anyway.

I was not trying to be harsh on you personally. I understood what you really meant especially when I read further into your thread with more of your comments. All good there.

I just think on a public forum as this, for new folks in Christ and the 'old ones' and non believers be very careful being even a little loose and fancy free with words when speaking of salvation judgment and in association with the world. It can send the wrong signals out. And yes, I do believe there are some believer, both the young and old in Christ who may have an air of snobbery in this world...not good at all.

And then there are actual churches/ assemblies who do the same, and compete for dominance in snobbery and pride...not good either.

Thanks for understanding my view, and yes a strong one, and its only one of many views that at least have been registered in the minds of your readers.

I am just as you, in Christ, maturing, being set apart, being saved and 'working out' my salvation to the end of this life and and then beyond it. Amen

Thanks for answering me. Bless you and I hope you did not feel any threat from me. :)

 

[Pearl]

"If you hang around with losers you become a loser"- Donald Trump

Jesus didn't become a loser and he called nobody a loser.

 

[Enoch111]

So much talk about salvation as a reward when we die and so little talk about living a Godly life today.

1. Salvation is NOT a reward for when we die but a gift of God while we are living on earth. This is called justification by God's grace.

2. Living a godly life is definitely that which follows salvation. This is called sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So why would you say that there is so little talk about this? Are you telling us that Christians are being encouraged to go in the opposite direction?

 

[LearningToLetGo]

1. Salvation is NOT a reward for when we die but a gift of God while we are living on earth. This is called justification by God's grace.

2. Living a godly life is definitely that which follows salvation. This is called sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So why would you say that there is so little talk about this? Are you telling us that Christians are being encouraged to go in the opposite direction?

I wouldn't say opposite direction, but I do see a lack of clarity. For example, ask the following question: What is the purpose in believing in Christ?

If we ask this question to a handful of Christians and non-Christians what will the likely answer be? I suspect that most will say, "to get to Heaven" or something along those lines. (Full disclosure: I have not surveyed this question and am admittedly making a broad assumption. Take that as you will.) There's nothing wrong with this answer but it does show that reward/punishment remains the main driver of faith, which I feel is unfortunate. A much preferable answer would be something like, "to love God and man as Jesus does". This takes the focus of faith away from fear of damnation and towards love of God. It transforms Christianity (or at least the popular perception of Christianity among non-Christians) from a fear-based religion to a love-based one.

I hope this answer suffices. I'm still working out the words to express myself.

 

[Dropship]

"If you hang around with losers you become a loser"- Donald Trump

Jesus didn't become a loser and he called nobody a loser.

Yes, Jesus and all Christians are WINNERS..:)
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize." (1 Corinthians 9:24)



PS- The LOSERS are the ones who hear the words of Jesus yet STILL reject him, he called them- "dogs, pigs.." (Matthew 7:6) and "weeds" (Matthew 13:38)
And elsewhere in the Bible they're known as-
"brute beasts," (2 Peter 2:12)
"fools" (Psalms 94:8)
"liars" (1 John 2:22-23)
"defiled" (Titus 1:15)
"filthy" (Revelation 22:11)

 

[Bob Estey]

Christians get a bad rep as being judgemental and the truth is we are, or at least that's how we are seen.

I think it's because of the saved/not saved issue. By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

This is the ultimate in egoism. It must be a sin. How does one resolve this issue?

Maybe some Christians are judgmental. But when we do things God's way, we find life improves, but when we try to share this with the world, we are accused of being judgmental.

 

[Pearl]

The LOSERS are the ones who hear the words of Jesus yet STILL reject him,

Yes, and sadly there are many who have hear but will not listen.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Maybe some Christians are judgmental. But when we do things God's way, we find life improves, but when we try to share this with the world, we are accused of being judgmental.

It's all about the messaging. Evangelizing is sales. We're trying to sell people Christ.

As with all sales we first must establish a need in the heart and mind of the other person. How to do this? We can strike fear into their hearts by talking about the end of days, then give them hope in God's free gift of saving grace in Jesus. That's a common tactic in my observation, but as I said before I don't like it since it sets the entire conversation around fear, and I really don't think that's the correct message.

A much better message is love -- love of God and love of our fellow man. This message sets the stage right, so to speak. It puts Christianity in a proper light and I think unbelievers will be much more receptive to it since it can and will effect immediate changes in their lives. Love heals bad relationships. Love gives hope for the future. Love displaces worry and fear in our hearts. And love does not come across as judgmental since there is no implication of damnation in it.

 

[Enoch111]

That's a common tactic in my observation, but as I said before I don't like it since it sets the entire conversation around fear, and I really don't think that's the correct message.

There's nothing wrong with a healthy fear. Every unsaved person should hear about eternal Hell and fear the Lake of Fire. How did Paul begin the Gospel to the Romans? For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness... (Rom 1:18) Even when Paul preached in Athens, he warned the Greeks about impending judgment. And had Nineveh not been warned about impending judgment, no one would have been saved. Study the book of Jonah and abandon your unbiblical ideas.

Even the word "perish" in John 3:16 literally means "go to Hell".

 

[Lambano]

Even the word "perish" in John 3:16 literally means "go to Hell".

Mmm, they're cognate noun and verb forms, but I would not say it literally means that.

ἀπόλλυμι, "Apollumi", verb, to destroy, to perish, to lose. In John 3:16, used in the 2nd Aorist, Subjunctive mood, "might not perish, might not be destroyed".

ἀπώλεια, "Apoleia", noun, destruction. In the Septuagint, this word is used to translate the Hebrew "Abaddon" the place of Destruction, which is typically paired with death, the grave, or Sheol. See Job 26:6, Job 28:22, Psalms 88:11, Proverbs 27:20 LXX; Compare with Acts of the Apostles 8:20, literally, "May you and your silver into Destruction together!" See also Revelation 9:11.

 

[mailmandan]

There's nothing wrong with a healthy fear...

So true. Fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for God (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) certainly is healthy fear. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and I had absolutely no assurance of salvation whatsoever. Now that is an unhealthy fear!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and I had absolutely no assurance of salvation whatsoever. Now that is an unhealthy fear!

If I may ask, what changed?

 

[Alfredthefifth]

Are Christians judgemental?

An aids hospice was built across the street from a Church. A Sunday school teacher can be numbered among the many that stated "if one of those come to MY church what are people going to think of us!" Meaning that will hurt our appearance. Judgemental or not?

Same national congress
A pastor is out of the ministry because he welcomed a convicted felon that had served his time into church.
A pastor is out of the ministry because after ten years in a mission field he couldn't show one self supporting church.
His church congress had turned back a 330 million dollar donation because of a stipulation that the money only be used for overseas missions.
A mission pastor came close to get kicked out of the same church congress because a letter to the congresses president questioning the motives of a committee that played a large part in all these things was intercepted. The reason the pastor was targeted? "Because no ignorant indian is capable of writing a letter that eloquent!"

One has to knowingly turn a blind eye to history to state, claim or maintain a position that Christians are not judgemental!

All are welcome?

3 out of 15 churches in my experience prove this by their actions, ALL ARE WELCOME here.

The other twelve are conditionally welcoming. We will tolerate you until you are judged worthy.

Judgemental churchs, the judgment is so insidiously in your face but the members just take it as being better Christians. And claim there is no judgment at all.

Maybe it was having my eyes opened by the Holy Spirit.
Maybe it was being in a state of incredible grace when I church hoping because the church congress of my youth was shown by the spirit to be ............
I find it actually rare that a church isn't judgemental.

Denying that churches are mostly judgemental give the unchurched or unbelievers a just opinion that all churches are judgemental.
Remove the log from your eye before you remove the speck from your neighbors eye.

Al

 

[Keiw]

Christians get a bad rep as being judgemental and the truth is we are, or at least that's how we are seen.

I think it's because of the saved/not saved issue. By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

This is the ultimate in egoism. It must be a sin. How does one resolve this issue?

Any teacher telling another, you are saved is a blind guide. He does not know. He cannot read anothers true heart. He has no clue who can endure until their end to be saved. He has never seen a single name written in Gods book of life. I say --RUN FROM THEM. They are these-2Cor11:12-15 teachers.

The only ones who will be saved are these-Matthew 7:21--Those living now( in this satan ruled system) doing Jesus' Fathers will get to enter his kingdom( be saved) and they must do it until their end to be saved-Matthew 24:13--The bottom line of Jesus' Fathers will, Jesus summed up in a single teaching---Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance from God= OT-NT careful study of all God said. Few bother, probably why Jesus teaches-FEW will find the road to Life( be saved)--because they believed a blind guide who assured them-you are saved.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

He has no clue who can endure until their end to be saved.



I Hate to “ bust your bubble” , Mr.Grace Rejector, But I can tell you “ EXACTLY” who will Endure until the End—— it’s ANYBODY who Believes that Jesus is the Son of God.......

“ Who is he that Endures? It is he that BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son Of God” ......1 John 5:5...