The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[PinSeeker]

We have no idea of the position of Adam's body when God formed him, Earburner. I think of it as one sweeping act; God spoke him into existence, like very other element of His creation. It is obviously of great importance to know what God created all things, for sure, and that He created everything "good," as He says at various intervals in His creative act, and even "very good," as He says of everything collectively at the close of the sixth day (Genesis 1:31). But speculation on the precise sequence or timeline of events is beyond the point of Genesis 1 and 2.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

Disagree. Before the Fall, they only knew good. And the verb "knew" there should not be understood as mere cognitive knowledge, but a sort of intimacy with, or proneness to. Remember, God created everything good; He pronounced it all so, including man.. Adam, and then Eve.

To know what is good, one must also know what is evil. To know what is evil, one must know what is good. They had neither, therefore they were created with innocence.

God thought that His work was good, as one would step back taking pleasure in a work well done.

 

[Earburner]

We have no idea of the position of Adam's body when God formed him, Earburner. I think of it as one sweeping act; God spoke him into existence, like very other element of His creation.

I can accept that, but ideally before Adam had consciousness, he had to breathe the breath of life, which was oxygenated air.
Let's not forget that it was Moses who wrote the book of Genesis approx. 3400 years ago. What did Moses know of the gaseous elements and the atoms of Oxygen, Nitrogen, or Carbon Dioxide?
Absolutely nothing, except that to him, it was "the breath of life".

 

[PinSeeker]

I can accept that, but ideally before Adam had consciousness, he had to breathe the breath of life, which was oxygenated air.

Hm. Well, in 2 Timothy 3:16, Paul says that "(a)ll Scripture is breathed out by God," right? So does that have anything to do with oxygenated air? I say no. :) To expound a bit, Scripture was written by many men over many centuries, men inspired ~ which literally means "breathed into" by the Holy Spirit. What this really means is that experientially, each man wrote his own thoughts and words, but the Holy Spirit superintended the writing of the Scriptures by all these men; they were led by the Spirit to write what they wrote. With regard to Adam, there was most assuredly for him a first breath of oxygenated air (and a last, of course), as there is a first time for everything. But again, I would fall back on God's speaking him into existence and saying this "(breathing) into his nostrils the breath of life" was a part of that... and related to us in a poetic way.

Let's not forget that it was Moses who wrote the book of Genesis approx. 3400 years ago. What did Moses know of the gaseous elements and the atoms of Oxygen, Nitrogen, or Carbon Dioxide? Absolutely nothing, except that to him, it was "the breath of life".

See above. Let's not forget that all Scripture is God-breathed, even what Moses wrote approximately 3400 years ago. In a real sense, all Scripture was really written by God, in the Person of the Holy Spirit. God is the ultimate Author of His Word.

Good conversation! :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

Of the three verses below, which one is speaking about the breath of life as being an eternal soul?

Gen.2[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen.6[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen.7[15] And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Yes! The correct answer is. None of the verses are
Speaking about the breath of life as being an eternal soul.
However, what do they all have in common, should it be that they all be kept from breathing "the breath of life"?
They die. Drowning is a form of suffocation, the inability to breathe "the breath of life", which is oxygenated air.

 

[PinSeeker]

Of the three verses below, which one is speaking about the breath of life as being an eternal soul?

I'm... not sure why you're asking this question, Earburner.

The correct answer is. None of the verses are speaking about the breath of life as being an eternal soul.

I agree, but again, I'm not sure what connection you're trying to make. Seems like you're talking about two very disparate things.

However, what do they all have in common, should it be that they all be kept from breathing "the breath of life"? They die. Drowning is a form of suffocation, the inability to breathe "the breath of life", which is oxygenated air.

Well, people definitely have to breathe to stay alive, yes... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

See above. Let's not forget that all Scripture is God-breathed, even what Moses wrote approximately 3400 years ago. In a real sense, all Scripture was really written by God, in the Person of the Holy Spirit. God is the ultimate Author of His Word.

Aligning the scriptures with "the breath of life" is not a parallel to God inspiring His thoughts and ways through His use of the limited languages and words of men.

What man may mean by his own words, are not necessarily verbatim for what the inspired thoughts and ways of God truly is meaning.
Only by His Holy Spirit are we allowed/made able to glean the inspiration of His understanding of His own thoughts and ways. All of which is impressed upon us by the mind of the Holy Spirit through a dream or a vision. John 16:13.
Edited: In other words, His thoughts and ways are to be revealed to us by Him, meaning our unaided natural mind (man) cannot know Him, even though it may hear of His existence.

God the Father is a Spirit. Therefore, He does not have physical vocal cords,......but Jesus does, as Paul on the road to Damascus found out.
Therefore, as we agree, the literal words of the Bible are to be interpreted through God's Holy Spirit to us, and not by the shallow wisdom of man's meaning of those words (doctrines of men). 1 Corinthians 2:5.

 

[Earburner]

I agree, but again, I'm not sure what connection you're trying to make. Seems like you're talking about two very disparate things.

In Christianity, there are two prominent schools of thought about the breath of life. They are:
1. Man was given an eternal soul
2. Man became a mortal soul.
By those two schools of thought, which ever is to one's liking, they become the ultimate filter(s) of how each of us interpret the Bible, and the many topics and doctrines that are generated from it.
For example, people will be consciously alive forever in an eternal, forever burning hell , or hell is the pit, a grave where the unsaved dead return to dust, knowing nothing at all ever again.

 

[Earburner]

I'm... not sure why you're asking this question, Earburner.


I agree, but again, I'm not sure what connection you're trying to make. Seems like you're talking about two very disparate things.


Well, people definitely have to breathe to stay alive, yes... :)

Grace and peace to you.

And that's the answer! Adam's very first breath, the breath of life, was oxygenated air, nothing more and nothing less.
Why is it, for understanding of how we were created, must we put the "religious spin" on it???
It's really very simple, and most all people understand it,.....except those who want to view it through the religious doctrines of men.

 

[PinSeeker]

Aligning the scriptures with "the breath of life" is not a parallel to God inspiring His thoughts and ways through His use of the limited languages and words of men.

You missed the point entirely. Or avoided it, possibly. No matter, the result is the same.

In Christianity, there are two prominent schools of thought about the breath of life. They are:
1. Man was given an eternal soul
2. Man became a mortal soul.
By those two schools of thought, which ever is to one's liking, they become the ultimate filter(s) of how each of us interpret the Bible, and the many topics and doctrines that are generated from it.
For example, people will be consciously alive forever in an eternal, forever burning hell , or hell is the pit, a grave where the unsaved dead return to dust, knowing nothing at all ever again.

Well, that issue really boils down to what it really means that God created us in His image. Annihilationism, which you seem to be advocating here, is completely unbiblical. As Jesus said, "...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." I realize that was that was the original subject of this thread, but it's entirely apart from the immediate point here. As for here, though, again, you completely missed or avoided the point.

And that's the answer! Adam's very first breath, the breath of life, was oxygenated air, nothing more and nothing less.

Yeah... disagree. I mean, at it's base, yes, Adam's first breath was of oxygenated air, sure. You're really ~ inadvertently, not intentionally ~ making God out to be a part of His own creation, and that's just not the case.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

 

[bbyrd009]

However, not just that word appears.

eis aionas aionon, into the ages of the ages, that is, the "chunk of time" that encompasses the "chunks of time".

Much love!

maybe im missing your point; still not “forever” right

 

[marks]

maybe im missing your point; still not “forever” right

What "they" say is, this is the strongest Koine Greek expression of forever that they had.

And epoch, eon, age, however you want to say it, the ages of the ages is the all encompassing epoch that contains all the other epochs. The Time that contains all Times.

Everlasting.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

What "they" say is, this is the strongest Koine Greek expression of forever that they had

Strong's Greek: 126. ἀΐδιος (aidios) -- everlasting
and here’s a pretty decent imo discussion on the difference,
Does the Greek Word Aion Mean Eternity? | Tommy Redmon

And epoch, eon, age, however you want to say it, the ages of the ages is the all encompassing epoch that contains all the other epochs. The Time that contains all Times

yes, i would still use aion for that i guess, since it is not “forever” or “everlasting”

iow the smoke of their torment goes up for the time of times, even, sure, but not for aidios, “forever”

 

[Earburner]

Yeah... disagree. I mean, at it's base, yes, Adam's first breath was of oxygenated air, sure. You're really ~ inadvertently, not intentionally ~ making God out to be a part of His own creation, and that's just not the case.

Actually, for those who believe that God gave man an eternal soul, it is they who are making God out to be part of His own creation, by Him imparting to them eternal existence, which would be a divine attribute of Himself.

 

[PinSeeker]

Actually, for those who believe that God gave man an eternal soul, it is they who are making God out to be part of His own creation, by Him imparting to them eternal existence, which would be a divine attribute of Himself.

The "logic" in this statement is quite backwards, Earburner. But it's nothing new; many times, when folks decide to believe what they want to believe, they create their own support of it, and sometimes to the point of incredulity. No offense to you, but... it is what it is. No, He created man ~ all of us ~ in His image, and that means many things, including his existence into eternity future. Whether he is resurrected to eternal life or to judgment and ultimately eternal punishment is the only question as far as that goes.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

yes, i would still use aion for that i guess, since it is not “forever” or “everlasting”

iow the smoke of their torment goes up for the time of times, even, sure, but not for aidios, “forever”

Isn't smoke the results of "matter" burning?
And is not smoke that same "matter" that is burning, but now in a different form, being the atoms of Carbon?
It is scientifically proven that the atoms of Carbon/smoke can and do exist in the infinity of space, but they seek to disperse, and not for densification.
So in essence, the smoke (the results) of their torment (of their burning) can ascend forever and ever.

 

[Earburner]

The "logic" in this statement is quite backwards, Earburner. But it's nothing new; many times, when folks decide to believe what they want to believe, they create their own support of it, and sometimes to the point of incredulity. No offense to you, but... it is what it is. No, He created man ~ all of us ~ in His image, and that means many things, including his existence into eternity future. Whether he is resurrected to eternal life or to judgment and ultimately eternal punishment is the only question as far as that goes.

Grace and peace to you.

The ability for man to have eternal existence of any kind was never imparted or given to man upon creation. In fact, because A&E chose to partake of the wrong tree first, and not that of the Tree of Life, the opportunity for eternal life was separated from their grasp, when they were booted out of the Garden of Eden.
Edit:
However, now that God the Son has become the Lamb of God, God's sacrifice for sin, the opportunity
for the gift of eternal life has been restored, so that through faith, we may by our free will again, choose or not choose the Tree of Life, who is Jesus.

 

[Earburner]

Pinseeker wrote:
"No, He created man ~ all of us ~ in His image, and that means many things, including his existence into eternity future."

Earburner's reply:
> From the mind of God, His thoughts IMAG-ined us to be created in "resemblance" to His "likeness" (H6755, G1504), but not an exact copy of His own Self, who is spirit.

Therefore, through the combination of the physical "earthen" elements, and the physical "gaseous" elements of oxygenated air, man BECAME a living soul*, just as it is equally so for all air breathing souls* of "animal life", aka "nephesh", in the Hebrew.

Only Jesus IS THE EXPRESS** IMAGE of the Person of God the Father. Hebrews 1:3. Only He is a "quickening spirit".

** an exact copy. G5481

 

[face2face]

** an exact copy. G5481

Very true! Not the actual image being reflected.
No different to the saints when they are immortalized in Christ 1 john 3:2

 

[bbyrd009]

Isn't smoke the results of "matter" burning?
And is not smoke that same "matter" that is burning, but now in a different form, being the atoms of Carbon?
It is scientifically proven that the atoms of Carbon/smoke can and do exist in the infinity of space, but they seek to disperse, and not for densification.
So in essence, the smoke (the results) of their torment (of their burning) can ascend forever and ever.

then why not use aidios?