The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's not the rapture of the church.

Much love!

How are you coming to this conclusion? Can you please tell me exactly how you interpret the following passage:

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[marks]

Complete Disregard Again, As If My Claim Doesn't Exist

You made a claim, I made a counter claim. Your's is OK, and mine isn't? Sure thing! Nice to have a level playing field!

Much love!

 

[Taken]

I'm pretty sure all of us here believe that.

Who do you think God gives the accurate interpretation of scripture to?

Those who do His works....which is believe in God and Christ Jesus.
AND
Those who do His reasonable Service...which is Heartfully Confess their Belief.
AND
Those who read, learn, give effort to know His Words and ask.

 

[marks]

How are you coming to this conclusion? Can you please tell me exactly how you interpret the following passage:

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Why would they be troubled by someone saying the day of the rapture has come?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 YLT
1) And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,
2) that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Don’t know Scofield either. Do you own and have read a Scofield Bible?

Your actively participating in a Pre-Trib Raptyre thread, and you don't know who Adulterer C.I. Scofield is "Really"

His 1909 reference Bible that contained Darby's teachings in the margins, is the greatest world influence planting dispensationalism into the hearts and minds of the unaware

C.I Scofield is a major foundation in dispensationalism's world headquarters at Dallas Theological Cemetary, founded in C.I. Scofield's Dallas Chyrcg as a Bible course, led by his disciple and prodigy in Lewis S. Chafer

 

[marks]

Complete Disregard Again, As If My Claim Doesn't Exist

The scripture below clearly teaches the church will be present on earth to witness the antichrist revealed, you give complete disregard to this fact, because it opposes your Darbyism pre-trib rapture, it's that simple

You believe and teach the church "Won't" be on earth to see the antichrist revealed, the scripture below teaches otherwise

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The day of Christ is not the rapture.

Why would they be troubled by someone saying the day of the rapture has come?

Oh No!!! We go to be with Jesus today! Horrors!!!!!

Much love!

 

[Taken]

Your actively participating in a Pre-Trib Raptyre thread, and you don't know who Adulterer C.I. Scofield is "Really"

His 1909 reference Bible that contained Darby's teachings in the margins, is the greatest world influence planting dispensationalism into the hearts and minds of the unaware

C.I Scofield is a major foundation in dispensationalism's world headquarters at Dallas Theological Cemetary, founded in C.I. Scofield's Dallas Chyrcg as a Bible course, led by his disciple and prodigy in Lewis S. Chafer

Heard his name mentioned on this forum.

You didn’t answer, Do you own or have you read his Bible?

 

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Apostasia, a compound word from "apo", a preposition meaning "away from", indicating movement, and "stao" I stand. In combination, "away from standing", that is, to depart.

The word is used one other place in the New Testament,

Acts 21:21 YLT
and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostasy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying—Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;

Their complaint was that Paul was teaching them to depart from Moses' commands to circumcise.

The verb form is used several times,

Luke 2:37 KJV
37) And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Luke 4:13 KJV
13) And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Hebrews 3:12 KJV
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Just a sampling, not every place it's used.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 KJV
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (the departure, literally) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those who do His works....which is believe in God and Christ Jesus.
AND
Those who do His reasonable Service...which is Heartfully Confess their Belief.
AND
Those who read, learn, give effort to know His Words and ask.

So, do you think only those who believe in a pre-trib rapture do those things?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would they be troubled by someone saying the day of the rapture has come?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 YLT
1) And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,
2) that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

Because if it had already come then that would mean they somehow missed being caught up to Christ which would mean they were not Christians like they thought they were. You can't see how that would be troubling?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apostasia, a compound word from "apo", a preposition meaning "away from", indicating movement, and "stao" I stand. In combination, "away from standing", that is, to depart.

The word is used one other place in the New Testament,

Acts 21:21 YLT
and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostasy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying—Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;

Their complaint was that Paul was teaching them to depart from Moses' commands to circumcise.

The verb form is used several times,

Luke 2:37 KJV
37) And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Luke 4:13 KJV
13) And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Hebrews 3:12 KJV
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Just a sampling, not every place it's used.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 KJV
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (the departure, literally) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul was talking about something that had to occur before "our being gathered to Him". He obviously wouldn't say that our departing and being gathered to Him had to take place first before our departing and being gathered to Him. So, there is no basis whatsoever for seeing the "falling away" as anything but a falling away from the faith.

He was talking about the same thing that he wrote about here:

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Obviously, it's always been the case that some have done what is described here, so Paul was clearly not speaking generally here since that wouldn't make sense. Instead, he was talking about a time when many would turn away from the faith.

 

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Because if it had already come then that would mean they somehow missed being caught up to Christ which would mean they were not Christians like they thought they were. You can't see how that would be troubling?

You mean that they were being told the day had come and gone?



This isn't about a day that comes and goes, like yesterday. This day arrives and is here. This is a now thing. It's not the tense of an occurance, its the tense of a state.

"The deadline has come", that's like an event. "Tax Season is Here", that's the kind of "here" that this is talking about. Is present, perfect tense. An occurance happens and is over, this is an ongoing "day".

Not something past. Something here.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So, there is no basis whatsoever for seeing the "falling away" as anything but a falling away from the faith.

Don't you remember how I told you these things? Paul asked them. What record of Paul's teaching prior to this letter do we have? And in that record, do we find him teaching a departure from the faith? Or another kind of departure?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Obviously, it's always been the case that some have done what is described here, so Paul was clearly not speaking generally here since that wouldn't make sense. Instead, he was talking about a time when many would turn away from the faith.

Yes, that's right, there has been tons of apostacy throughout the centuries. IF Paul were saying, "that day won't come but the departure (from sound faith) come first",

IF Paul were saying as some suppose, that apostacy (in the American English sense) come first, then, how valuable a sign is that? Considering this kind of apostacy has happened throughout Christian history? This is a certain departure, which is it? How would you know?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean that they were being told the day had come and gone?

Yes. It is the day Christ returns and we're caught up to Him, as Paul mentioned in 2 Thess 2:1. He was saying that they shouldn't believe anyone who says that day had already come which would mean they had missed being gathered to Christ at His coming.

This isn't about a day that comes and goes, like yesterday. This day arrives and is here. This is a now thing. It's not the tense of an occurance, its the tense of a state.

"The deadline has come", that's like an event. "Tax Season is Here", that's the kind of "here" that this is talking about. Is present, perfect tense. An occurance happens and is over, this is an ongoing "day".

Not something past. Something here.

I don't know what you're talking about. The day Christ returns and we're gathered to Him is not an ongoing day. Where are you getting that idea from? What will happen on that day, according to scripture like 1 Thess 4:13-5:11, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 is that Jesus will descend from heaven, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and caught up to Christ along with those who are alive and remain, and then Jesus will take vengeance on His enemies. How is that an ongoing day rather than a coming 24 hour day that will arrive with the things I described happening on that day?

 

[Truth7t7]

I see no mention of the Church. Why do you find it necessary to add things that are not there?

Big Smiles!

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 was written to the Church at Thessalonika, which is now the largest city in Greece

2 Thessalonians 1:1KJV
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[marks]

How is that an ongoing day rather than a coming 24 hour day that will arrive with the things I described happening on that day?

It's the syntax of the passage. I'm not sure how to explain other than what I did. You can see the interlinear translation with grammatical forms.

The Aorist tense is the simple past tense, "the rapture came." The Perfect tense is a completed act who's result remains, the Day has come and is here now. This uses the perfect tense for the Day of Christ has come. It's not like, "the rapture happened". More like, the Day of Christ has arrived (and is here). If the Day of Christ is when they are raptured, they haven't missed it, it's there still.

The grammar doesn't support your view.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

The day of Christ is not the rapture.

Why would they be troubled by someone saying the day of the rapture has come?

Oh No!!! We go to be with Jesus today! Horrors!!!!!

Much love!

You intentionally divert in distraction

Does the scripture state the church will be on earth to see the (Man Of Sin) revealed?

100% Yes, and you distract this fact with claims of a rapture or second coming

You don't believe the church will be on earth to see the (Man Of Sin) you believe and teach they will be gone in a pre-trib rapture before this, scripture teaches otherwise

Will you continue to divert and distract?

Jesus Love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, that's right, there has been tons of apostacy throughout the centuries. IF Paul were saying, "that day won't come but the departure (from sound faith) come first",

IF Paul were saying as some suppose, that apostacy (in the American English sense) come first, then, how valuable a sign is that? Considering this kind of apostacy has happened throughout Christian history? This is a certain departure, which is it? How would you know?

You completely missed the point. He was not talking about apostasy in general, he was talking about mass apostasy. Did you read the passage I showed you?

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Notice that Paul said a time will come when what he wrote about here will happen despite the fact that it was already happening to some extent back then. So, he had in mind a future time when things would be significantly worse with many more people turning "away their ears from the truth" than normally do.

He also implied an increase in wickedness at that point because he indicated in 2 Thess 2:7 that while the mystery of iniquity was already at work back then it was still being restrained to an extent. Jesus referenced this as well:

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Paul talked about the falling away as a future event, not as something that was happening back then already, so arguing that apostasy has always been happening to some extent is not an argument against the belief that he was talking about a MASS falling away from the faith.

You asked "how would you know" this is happening. There isn't any one thing that will happen that tells us this. It has to be spiritually discerned. What do you see in the world today? To me, it seems to resemble what Paul was talking about. It does seem like wickedness is increasing and that more and more people are turning away from Christianity.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's the syntax of the passage. I'm not sure how to explain other than what I did. You can see the interlinear translation with grammatical forms.

The Aorist tense is the simple past tense, "the rapture came." The Perfect tense is a completed act who's result remains, the Day has come and is here now. This uses the perfect tense for the Day of Christ has come. It's not like, "the rapture happened". More like, the Day of Christ has arrived (and is here). If the Day of Christ is when they are raptured, they haven't missed it, it's there still.

But, they would have thought they had missed it if His coming and our being gathered to Him already occurred. That's the point.

The grammar doesn't support your view.

I disagree. I don't think you are the Greek grammar expert that you think you are. So, tell me what exactly do you think would have troubled them if the day of Christ had already come back then without them being gathered to Christ?