Non-Trinitarians, Please Answer This

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the blessing, and ALL the honour, and ALL the glory, and ALL the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (Revelation 5:13-15; so emphasized in the Greek)

Note the words, “τω καθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω”, “to Him Who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb”, where the Greek conjunction, “και”, is used for “sameness”, with absolute equality. Thus, we read in chapter 22, verse 1: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb”. The Greek here is very important, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, where “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. God and the Lamb, as “distinct” Persons, are united in Their Rule. This absolute unity, can also be seen in chapter 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”. Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer to “His Christ”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ”, the latter no doubt being the correct meaning, as seen from the main passage from chapter 5, and 22. Let no one suppose that there is some “subordination” with Jesus Christ to the Father, post-Incarnation, as this is proven as completely wrong from these passages in Revelation.

These passages are some of the strongest and clearest in the Holy Bible, that speak of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two DISTINCT Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).

Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. So, let us be clear here what is being taught; that, ALL, "THE blessing, and ALL THE honour, and ALL THE glory, and ALL THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation?
 
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FHII

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Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne?
I am a nontrinitarian, and my answer is this: Jesus IS God. He is fully God. He is fully the lamb; it was just a different manifestation of the one SINGLE God. It is not a different person sitting on the same throne with another person (is the throne of God actually a love seat? Big enough for two persons? And I thought Jesus was either sitting on God's right hand or standing on it...)

Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?
Well does God the Father get off of it every once in a while to let Jesus sit down on it? Or again is it a love seat? And where does the Holy Ghostget to sit?

It can't be a throne then... Nor a love seat... Must be a sofa! 3 persons can sit on a sofa! Now Jesus is on the right hand so the HS must be on the left with the goats or maybe Jesus is in the middle and the HS is on his right hand.

But it isn't a sofa or a love seat. It is a throne, which has an occupancy of one. So whose on there? The Lamb or God? Do they take shifts?

Now, I have answered your question. Let me ask just one! Who is Jesus's daddy? The Father or the Holy Ghost? Me and Maury Pavich want to know!

Ok. Enough kidding around. Thank you for letting me having my fun but there is a point to it. I am not a trinitarian. I have absolutely no problem with saying Jesus is God. The Father is God and the Holy Ghost is God. They are not separate persons, but merely manifestations of the one God who said there is none beside me.

I won't give verses unless requested, but I have verses that say:

1. Jesus is the ever lasting Father.
2. The Father is Holy, and a Spirit.
3. Jesus is the Truth, and the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Truth
4. When you see Jesus, you see the Father.
5. God was MANIFEST in the flesh...

I can go on. But my problem with the Trinity theory is the act of separating them into three DISTINCT persons and then trying to deny they are separate, while claiming they are distinct. Then just saying that no one can understand the mystery of the trinity.

RIGHT! I don't understand it, Trinitarians don't understand it and God doesn't understand it either.

It's confusion. Even Satan doesn't understand it. He knows there Is one God, and trembles.
 

Hidden In Him

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I am a nontrinitarian, and my answer is this: Jesus IS God. He is fully God. He is fully the lamb; it was just a different manifestation of the one SINGLE God. It is not a different person sitting on the same throne with another person (is the throne of God actually a love seat? Big enough for two persons? And I thought Jesus was either sitting on God's right hand or standing on it...)

Well does God the Father get off of it every once in a while to let Jesus sit down on it? Or again is it a love seat? And where does the Holy Ghostget to sit?

It can't be a throne then... Nor a love seat... Must be a sofa! 3 persons can sit on a sofa! Now Jesus is on the right hand so the HS must be on the left with the goats or maybe Jesus is in the middle and the HS is on his right hand.

But it isn't a sofa or a love seat. It is a throne, which has an occupancy of one. So whose on there? The Lamb or God? Do they take shifts?

Now, I have answered your question. Let me ask just one! Who is Jesus's daddy? The Father or the Holy Ghost? Me and Maury Pavich want to know!

Ok. Enough kidding around. Thank you for letting me having my fun but there is a point to it. I am not a trinitarian. I have absolutely no problem with saying Jesus is God. The Father is God and the Holy Ghost is God. They are not separate persons, but merely manifestations of the one God who said there is none beside me.

I won't give verses unless requested, but I have verses that say:

1. Jesus is the ever lasting Father.
2. The Father is Holy, and a Spirit.
3. Jesus is the Truth, and the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Truth
4. When you see Jesus, you see the Father.
5. God was MANIFEST in the flesh...

I can go on. But my problem with the Trinity theory is the act of separating them into three DISTINCT persons and then trying to deny they are separate, while claiming they are distinct. Then just saying that no one can understand the mystery of the trinity.

RIGHT! I don't understand it, Trinitarians don't understand it and God doesn't understand it either.

It's confusion. Even Satan doesn't understand it. He knows there Is one God, and trembles.

Thanks for the humor, LoL. And despite the joking around, this is actually a stronger argument than I typically hear from most non-Trinitarians. The problem with it is that it turns Jesus into a bit of a schizophrenic when He makes statements to the effect of, "What I hear my Father saying, that I speak also."

As to the "love seat" and the couch (very clever, btw), I believe it to be a single throne upon which the Father ever sits, but that the Lord Jesus Christ can enter into the very Power and Presence of the Father in the midst of His throne unlike other inhabitants of Heaven, who are unable to, being unable to withstand dwelling within the full Power of the Creator of the Universe. This is the meaning of the phrase, "at His right hand," a rather crude analogy for being able to stand within the very Presence of God Himself without being consumed by it.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Yes, I think their eyes were opened to see in the Spirit. You appear to spiritualizing not just one text but many of them, which I think is a mistake. Those who continue on that path can take it so far as to say that most of what is said in the Bible is merely a metaphor for various spiritual realities, and can thereby conform God-breathed scripture over into any religion they choose.
Well, I acknowledge that this is a possibility. I might be spiritualizing a text that was intended to be taken literally. But then again, you might be taking something literally that is intended to be understood as a figure of speech. Where does that leave us?
 

Hidden In Him

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Well, I acknowledge that this is a possibility. I might be spiritualizing a text that was intended to be taken literally. But then again, you might be taking something literally that is intended to be understood as a figure of speech. Where does that leave us?

Waiting for the Lord to confirm truth from falsehood, which I'm perfectly comfortable with, LoL.

God bless, and hope you have a great Sunday!
 
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CadyandZoe

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But let me ask you this while we are discussing it:

Jesus prophesied the following before His death and resurrection, saying, "You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62).

If these words are to be spiritualized to mean, "You will see me in a position of authority," then what are we to make of the rest of the sentence? Should it be spiritualized as well, or should it be interpreted as that those alive on earth when He comes will literally see Him coming on the clouds?
I take issue with your premise that my interpretation "spiritualizes" the text. If you are going to take Jesus literally, then I must ask you when this event took place? When did the accusers of Jesus witness this event?
 

keithr

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Here is Jesus' prayer which defines the Oneness that I was referring to, that you apparently do not consider the kind of oneness that makes Jesus God:
Correct, I don't consider that if you are in unity and accord with God, that means that you are God.

He does not say "one with God", but rather that they (and we) "are one" and "perfect", just as [only] God is perfect. As He also said, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

Only God is "perfect."
Yes, God is perfect, but the Scriptues do not say that only God is perfect. God wants all of His creatures to be perfect. Us being told to be perfect does not mean that if we become perfect, and are in perfect agreement and harmony with God, that we then become or are God. That's an absurd idea. And just because Jesus is perfect, and is one in agreement with God, that does not mean that Jesus is God.
 

Dropship

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Here's an eyewitness account indicating God and Jesus are two separate entities-
"Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)
 

Grailhunter

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I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask the non-Trinitarians on this forum (I know we have a bunch here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.

Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him

non-Trinitarian?
What is a non-Trinitarian?
How many formulas for the Trinity are there?
Can we comprehend the construct of the Trinity?
Is there a difference between what people say they believe and how they actually apply it in motion?

How many formulas for the Trinity are there?
1. The one God formula with Christ being the Supreme God---the Creator God.
2. The one God formula with Yahweh being the Supreme God---the Creator God.
3. The one God formula with all three being equal and one and all actions through them. Nothing can be contributed to any one of them.
4. The one God formula, but the Holy Spirit is not exactly the same...How many hymns written to the Holy Spirit?....How many people believe the Holy Spirit is not an entity per say....but a projection of Yahweh's Spirit or Yeshua's Spirit?
Can any one of these or all be considered a Trinitarian belief?

What is a non-Trinitarian? Well the best examples are the Jews and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Can we comprehend the construct of the Trinity? Is there a Biblical detailed discussion about the Trinity? No, not per say because as most know, the word Trinity is not in the Bible. Is there a discussion that outlines the general concept? Yes, and it is from Christ Himself

Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of the concept of one. Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:21 “And the glory which to them; that they may be one just as We are one.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the member of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

Here it is explained that the concept of one, is not a number but more of a union, unity, alliance, solidarity.

In Grailhunter's Corner I list about 200 scriptural reasons why the one God formula is wrong.

Grailhunter’s Corner

Then you have The Comma Johanneum Addition, as it is referred to, originated as a common literary explanation or formula for the Trinity. It first appeared in the 3rd century in some of the literature which debated the oneness concepts of the Trinity. Even though this formula would become very popular, at the time, very few Church Fathers agreed with it.

At some point this short summary of the Trinity made its way into the margin notes of some of the Bibles that were written after the 5th century. Unlike other examples of popular margin notes that made their way into the scriptures, the Comma Johanneum found its way into the verses of the Bible by way of another avenue. After the 6th century, the Byzantines began to recopy and retranslate the available Greek texts of the New Testament. At this point some of these copies became known as the “Textus Receptus.” It was in some of these that the formula was added and then later included in some of the Bibles. Most notably the King James Version, which relied heavily on these texts. As it happened the Comma Johanneum Addition was much more than a retranslation, or an addition, but rather a replacement of the original scriptures with a popular theological statement. They kept the verse numbers in sequence so that it would not be as noticeable.

The scriptures involved are 1st John 5:7&8. The original scriptures read as follows... (Quoting 6 through 8, so it can be read in context)

“6. This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 7. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8. And it is the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

This was replaced with what came to be called the Comma Johanneum Addition. Verses 7 and 8 are the added lines.

6: This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7: For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8: And there are three that bear witness in Earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

As one can see there is no chance that these are simply a different translation, but rather a removal of the scriptures and an insertion of a theological statement for an intended purpose.

If you are the sort that you would base your entire belief on one set of scriptures that stand in disagreement with the rest of the New Testament...this is the one for you.

Christ explained what the "oneness" concept is about...and in the Gospels we see how Christ interacted with His Father....referring to His Father as His God and that the Father was greater than He and that He did not His own will but the will of the father....that the Father knew when the end would come, not Him...and then John and James mother's request for her sons to sit on either side of Him...Christ explained Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

And then there is about 200 scriptures that indicate that the one God formula is incorrect. Different authority, by rule and position, different minds, different wills and Christ's prayers to the Father. Did they crucify the Father on the cross and was Christ crying out to Himself when He said with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LEMA SABAKTANEI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

Still if a person believes in Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit, whether it is the oneness thing or as a Godhead, are they not Trinitarians? The oneness between husband and wife is one thing. Then again how "connected" are the three Gods. Is this connection a form of oneness? Also if God came down and stood face to face with one of us and explained the Trinity....could we understand?

There are other controversies in what people believe and what scriptures they embrace.
Some believe that Yeshua is the Creator God and is the Supreme God....not all believe that.
Some believe in the Rapture and some do not or ignore it.
Some believe that the Bread and Wine ritual is essential to salvation...some do not or ignore it.
 
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ScottA

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Correct, I don't consider that if you are in unity and accord with God, that means that you are God.


Yes, God is perfect, but the Scriptues do not say that only God is perfect. God wants all of His creatures to be perfect. Us being told to be perfect does not mean that if we become perfect, and are in perfect agreement and harmony with God, that we then become or are God. That's an absurd idea. And just because Jesus is perfect, and is one in agreement with God, that does not mean that Jesus is God.
No...Jesus said, "you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." And He prayed that we would be "one" as they "are one", meaning, "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one." That "one" being God.
 

FHII

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The problem with it is that it turns Jesus into a bit of a schizophrenic when He makes statements to the effect of, "What I hear my Father saying, that I speak also."
I am thankful that you appreciate the humor, and that you see my point.

The notion that Jesus looks schizophrenic doesn't deter my position. Yes, it does make him look that way to a non believer, and he was treated as such. This guy not only claimed he knew the way and knew the truth. That is pretty audacious in itself. But he didn't stop there. He not only claimed he knew the way and the truth; he claimed he was the way and he was truth! He didn't claim he had the bread of life; he claimed he was the bread! And there are many more things he said which are just as audacious and seemingly making him schizophrenic.

And, how did the people take it? Few believed, many left him and some never liked him And eventually he was killed because he claimed what he was.

But he got up!

I haven't read the quote directly, but CS Lewis reportedly said that Jesus is either who he said he was or has the mentality of a poached egg. I agree. But he is who he says he was.

As to the "love seat" and the couch (very clever, btw), I believe it to be a single throne upon which the Father ever sits....

Again, I am thankful you appreciated my humor. Hidden, despite my humor about the couch and sofa... this is more than likely spiritual. I seriously doubt there is a physical throne. God is a spirit, the HG is a spirit, and Jesus went back to being the Word. Why would they sit on a physical throne?
 

Hidden In Him

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Hidden, despite my humor about the couch and sofa... this is more than likely spiritual. I seriously doubt there is a physical throne. God is a spirit, the HG is a spirit, and Jesus went back to being the Word. Why would they sit on a physical throne?

This is an interesting question, but I have heard it said by those who have been taken in Spirit to Heaven that whereas someone who is in the spirit on earth is intangible to the tangible world, up there you are substantive because everything there is of the same substance; everything exists in a spiritual body, that is.

This would seem to make sense scripturally because there are mentions in scripture of angels, who exist as spirit beings, fighting; the prince of Israel had to fight with the prince of Persia before Gabriel could break through to Daniel. Michael and his angels will one day fight with Satan and his, and cast them down to the earth where their time will then be short. If angels were not substantive in relation to one another then making contact with one another wouldn't result in anything, and there could be no fight. In the same way, I think both the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father are Substantive, but in this world the Lord can take forms where He is not, and walk through walls rather than through a door when He wants to.
 

quietthinker

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I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask the non-Trinitarians on this forum (I know we have a bunch here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.

Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him
I see categorisation is a priority HIM!
 

keithr

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I seriously doubt there is a physical throne. God is a spirit, the HG is a spirit, and Jesus went back to being the Word. Why would they sit on a physical throne?
The Ark of the Covenant was/is God's physical throne on the earth. In the visions given to John he saw the Ark in heaven, perhaps symbolic of the spiritual equivalent in heaven - God's throne and authority based on His laws which were/are in the Ark. Revelation 11:19 (WEB):

(19) God’s temple that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of the Lord’s covenant was seen in his temple. Lightnings, sounds, thunders, an earthquake, and great hail followed.​
 

keithr

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No...Jesus said, "you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." And He prayed that we would be "one" as they "are one", meaning, "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one." That "one" being God.
Taking the verse in isolation, it could be looking forward and implying that one day we will be perfect, but in the context of the passage it makes more sense as it is translated in the KJV and other translations, as a command - Matthew 5:48 (MKJV):

(48) Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.​

Regarding Jesus prayer to God (therefore Jesus is not God!), note that after Jesus said, John 14:20 (WEB):

(20) In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.​

he then said, John 14:28 (WEB):

(28) You heard how I told you, ‘I go away, and I come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said ‘I am going to my Father;’ for the Father is greater than I.​

So clearly Jesus is not God!

In his prayer in John 17, Jesus said:

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

Jesus said, John 17:23 (WEB):

(23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.​

He also said, John 14:23 (WEB):

(23) Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.​

"We will make our home with him" does not mean that by living together they all become one person, or all become God. God will be with us, and Jesus will be with us, but that does not mean that Jesus is God, no more than your son being with you means that your son is you.
 

ScottA

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Taking the verse in isolation, it could be looking forward and implying that one day we will be perfect, but in the context of the passage it makes more sense as it is translated in the KJV and other translations, as a command - Matthew 5:48 (MKJV):

(48) Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.​

Regarding Jesus prayer to God (therefore Jesus is not God!), note that after Jesus said, John 14:20 (WEB):

(20) In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.​

he then said, John 14:28 (WEB):

(28) You heard how I told you, ‘I go away, and I come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said ‘I am going to my Father;’ for the Father is greater than I.​

So clearly Jesus is not God!

In his prayer in John 17, Jesus said:

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

Jesus said, John 17:23 (WEB):

(23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.​

He also said, John 14:23 (WEB):

(23) Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.​

"We will make our home with him" does not mean that by living together they all become one person, or all become God. God will be with us, and Jesus will be with us, but that does not mean that Jesus is God, no more than your son being with you means that your son is you.
I do understand your logic, but it is the thinking and rationale of men. Such thinking would also deny that "two [actually] become one flesh", which among men never is the case, but only points to God in whom all things are real, just as they are written.

Therefore, when the scriptures point to the Oneness of God in whom we become one with--including Jesus "who was and is" already...it is not within the context of those things and persons that only point to what is real that the oneness of the scriptures exists, but rather only in God. Is man God, because he is made in His image, even Christ? Certainly not--that is foolishness. But that is what you are looking at, and for this reason you are not wrong to consider anything in the world to actually be God. But that is not what the things of this world point to. Thus, you can certainly make a case for what would seem obvious among men, and have the confidence of many in their own understanding, to agree. But that is not what the holy word of God points to nor reveals to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

So...remain, or press on, as those have always been the choices. Either way, in the end we do not awaken to those things which only pointed to what is real in God, but rather to what they have always pointed to. Your choice.

He who has an ear, let him hear.
 
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keithr

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Such thinking would also deny that "two [actually] become one flesh", which among men never is the case, but only points to God in whom all things are real, just as they are written.
Of course, it is obvious that a husband and wife do not become a single flesh being. Matthew 19:5 (WEB) says:

(5) and said, ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh?’​

where the Greek word that is translated as 'joined' is proskollao, which means 'to glue to'. They don't actually become glued together, it's a metaphor for intimating that they become so closely united that nothing but death can seperate them. They don't actually become one flesh. Likewise Jesus is closely united to God, and we will be too, but Jesus will never be God YHWH; and we will be closely united with Jesus, but we will never be Jesus. Metaphors are not meant to be interpreted literally!

1 Corinthians 6:17 (TLV):

(17) But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.​
 
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ScottA

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Of course, it is obvious that a husband and wife do not become a single flesh being. Matthew 19:5 (WEB) says:

(5) and said, ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh?’​

where the Greek word that is translated as 'joined' is proskollao, which means 'to glue to'. They don't actually become glued together, it's a metaphor for intimating that they become so closely united that nothing but death can seperate them. They don't actually become one flesh. Likewise Jesus is closely united to God, and we will be too, but Jesus will never be God YHWH; and we will be closely united with Jesus, but we will never be Jesus. Metaphors are not meant to be interpreted literally!

1 Corinthians 6:17 (TLV):

(17) But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.​
And so you have made your choice. So be it.
 

Matthias

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Here's an eyewitness account indicating God and Jesus are two separate entities-
"Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

So who is God (doesn’t sound like God is the Trinity) and, if Jesus is a separate entity, who and what is Jesus?

Sideshow. Who or what is the Holy Spirit Stephen was full of?

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
 

Dropship

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So who is God (doesn’t sound like God is the Trinity) and, if Jesus is a separate entity, who and what is Jesus?
Sideshow. Who or what is the Holy Spirit Stephen was full of?
God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

1- Jesus was the Son of God, imbued with the full power of God's holy spirit.
2- Stephen had it too, so did Paul, and all Christians have it too in varying degrees..:)
Jesus said "..I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)
 
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