The Sabbath Day

[BarneyFife]

I'll be really young then. I'll be in heaven. Jesus is coming way before then.

No, you'll be old. But all of us old people will look great, even when we're in our 9900's. We'll hardly have changed at all! (Actually, I think we'll be a little taller)

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to be our guide, not the written law. If you put yourself back under the written law you are denying Christ.

BASIC! Jesus AND THE HOLY SPIRIT gave us the Holy SCRIPTURES 'to be our guide', not <the holy spirit> IN US, but the Holy Spirit through the Written Word of GOD-, GOD IN CHRIST ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES true believers' all exclusive only LAW. Like you say: <If you put yourself back under the written law you are denying Christ> exactly like the unbelieving Jews.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

(Actually, I think we'll be a little taller)

How tall or small are you?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

hope that we have to save society.

You have a hope - of an ice cube in hell.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus was one of the great liberals! He stood up to the conservative Pharisees and Sadducees, showing them that their legalism and self-righteousness were contrary to God's will.

Jesus was the only conservative who stood up to the liberalism and self-esteem of the Pharisees and Sadducees, showing them that their traditions of men and superstition were contrary to God's Will, Law and Righteousness.

You've got things skewed in your mind, mate.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I hesitate no second to affirm that Sunday sacredness and keeping is from the devil - only.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I have maintained that the righteous will fill the nations of them who are saved. AND the saints will rule over them from the holy city.
The issue is not only what makes a saint...but also what makes one righteous before God.

To be righteous means one is humble and fears the Lord. NO doctrinal understanding is required at this level since righteous is as righteous DOES. We will all be judged according to our own righteousness (Works)...or what we have done with what we have been given.

Now usually people get into a snit when they hear this very biblical approach. Why? They have been taught that only THEY are righteous because of certain beliefs about God and such.

The saint is one that walks in resurrection life and power. The saint is learning to BE as Christ in this world by abiding in Him and allowing His character to be formed to the full stature of Christ.

Getting these mixed up and transgressing these standards will disqualify many on that day from being either a saint OR righteous.

That is so true Forrest, what one does is what makes one righteous. Therefore Biblical doctrine must be understood as we have to worship God with spirit, and truth. It cannot be our truths, rather God's truths.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Mmmm. So despite the fact that the Sabbath is a holy day, still, there being no declaration from God otherwise, Christians are now free to profane that which is holy? When pray tell, did this abomination of spiritual rebellion enter the church?

The new covenant went into force on Pentecost of 33 CE Brake.

 

[Robert Gwin]

All of them. Numerous times over. But what has that got to do with the topic at hand? Because we have sinned yesterday, does that excuse us from doing right tomorrow?

It is kind of shocking isn't it Brake, until you asked me and I thought about it, I didn't realize that I had violated so many of them. Of course it has been years, but I was really stunned when I thought back. Thanks for your honesty sir, not many admit to that.

You are very correct today is the first day of the rest of your life, what you did yesterday cannot be changed, what you do now certainly can be. All Christians are a work in progress, and it is a growth process. We are still quite a ways off for perfection, but it is coming.

 

[Episkopos]

That is so true Forrest, what one does is what makes one righteous. Therefore Biblical doctrine must be understood as we have to worship God with spirit, and truth. It cannot be our truths, rather God's truths.

Who's Forrest? As in Forrest Gump?

Righteousness comes either by works or by faith. But then faith without works is dead. However, God will justify by faith because He knows in advance what we will do. Otherwise a dying person would never have the time to prove his/her faith. So then believing is an act of faith that justifies a person if God sees it as such. No one can ever justify themselves for their own beliefs or works. Only God justifies.

At the higher level, we are not justified in Christ by receiving truths (plural) but the truth. Truths are accepted by the mind. God has no covenant with the mind. God only establishes covenant with the heart. There is a world of difference in this....

 

[Robert Gwin]

It sounds good, Bob (Barn's still good, btw), and your kindness in the matter certainly is refreshing and really convicts me about the way I've addressed some people in the past, even yourself.

But it seems to me that the term "law of Christ" is so vague and the evidence for Sabbath abrogation so weak that I don't see how anyone can conclude that God changed His moral code for human beings. I know we don't agree on the substantive relationship between Christ and Jehovah but, after all, Jesus did say "I and my Father are one" and if by that He didn't mean that they were one in purpose and principle, what did He mean?

There had to have been a time in Witness history that the Sabbath was considered compulsory for believers, no? I've actually been thinking of trying to hunt down some old Witness teaching material to see if that is the case.

I have yet to have anyone tell me that this Sabbath abrogation thing was going on in the mid-to-late-20th century.

And I can't see how folks can believe that the Christian church was out of the loop for almost 2000 years on their duty to God as regards the 4th commandment. Aren't the main Kingdom Hall worship services held every Sunday?

Aren't these questions worth asking, Bob? :)

Well, hi Barney, you had a handle change sir, I didn't pick up on that. Barn it is, I will make a note.

It sounds good, Bob (Barn's still good, btw), and your kindness in the matter certainly is refreshing and really convicts me about the way I've addressed some people in the past, even yourself.
I believe you have always treated me kindly and with respect Barn, and I truly appreciate that. If you ever treated me rudely or unprofessionally I certainly don't remember, so no problem sir.

But it seems to me that the term "law of Christ" is so vague and the evidence for Sabbath abrogation so weak that I don't see how anyone can conclude that God changed His moral code for human beings. I know we don't agree on the substantive relationship between Christ and Jehovah but, after all, Jesus did say "I and my Father are one" and if by that He didn't mean that they were one in purpose and principle, what did He mean?

It is very vague, and only occurs that one time. But even though we call it that based on that Scripture, commandments are still commandments and violating them is sin. Christians are under different laws that our pre-Christian brothers and sisters were. Paul said not to judge anyone over a Sabbath, although I don't keep it, I don't frown on anyone who does, however I do find disdain for hypocrisy as you may yourself, I believe that is someone teaches you should keep the Sabbath, then they should be a prime example of observing it, correct? Under the law covenant, a violation of the Sabbath, was to result in the death of the violator, by his brothers and sisters. You, me,, and everyone you know (I bet) has violated it, I would have been gone years ago. In this time period there would be all kinds of consequences of a faith killing Sabbath violators, so I am very thankful that Paul under inspiration penned those words of Jehovah.

You are exactly correct how you interpreted I and my Father are one! Many people use that verse to mean that Jesus is Jehovah in the flesh, but Jesus clearly explained it in his famous prayer recorded for us at Jn 17. Any sinless individual is one with Jehovah. We of course cannot say that as we all have sinned.

There had to have been a time in Witness history that the Sabbath was considered compulsory for believers, no? I've actually been thinking of trying to hunt down some old Witness teaching material to see if that is the case.
Yes sir, from 1513 BCE till 33/36 CE, I put in 36 because the Law covenant was kept in force till the end of the week Barn Dan. (Daniel 9:27) 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.. . .

I have yet to have anyone tell me that this Sabbath abrogation thing was going on in the mid-to-late-20th century.

And I can't see how folks can believe that the Christian church was out of the loop for almost 2000 years on their duty to God as regards the 4th commandment. Aren't the main Kingdom Hall worship services held every Sunday?
Lengthy subject Barn, in a nut shell, there would be a period of apostasy until the end of the appointed times of the nations at which point Jesus would sit on God's throne. 2 Thes 2:3. By the end of the apostles life, that apostasy was already well established and John penned about the many antichrists that had came on the scene. It was prophesied that when Jesus took the crown, and we entered into the last days God's people who were growing among the weeds would be brought together again. Isa 2:2,3 repeated at Micah 4:1,2. We believe that we have been in this period for over 100 yrs now, so one should be able to identify those people by Scripture.


Aren't these questions worth asking, Bob? :)[/QUOTE]

Amen Barn, when everlasting life is on the line, there are no stupid questions sir. In fact I truly appreciate your asking me, and allowing me to bear testimony for my God on those concerns.

 

[Brakelite]

Well, hi Barney, you had a handle change sir, I didn't pick up on that. Barn it is, I will make a note.

It sounds good, Bob (Barn's still good, btw), and your kindness in the matter certainly is refreshing and really convicts me about the way I've addressed some people in the past, even yourself.
I believe you have always treated me kindly and with respect Barn, and I truly appreciate that. If you ever treated me rudely or unprofessionally I certainly don't remember, so no problem sir.

But it seems to me that the term "law of Christ" is so vague and the evidence for Sabbath abrogation so weak that I don't see how anyone can conclude that God changed His moral code for human beings. I know we don't agree on the substantive relationship between Christ and Jehovah but, after all, Jesus did say "I and my Father are one" and if by that He didn't mean that they were one in purpose and principle, what did He mean?

It is very vague, and only occurs that one time. But even though we call it that based on that Scripture, commandments are still commandments and violating them is sin. Christians are under different laws that our pre-Christian brothers and sisters were. Paul said not to judge anyone over a Sabbath, although I don't keep it, I don't frown on anyone who does, however I do find disdain for hypocrisy as you may yourself, I believe that is someone teaches you should keep the Sabbath, then they should be a prime example of observing it, correct? Under the law covenant, a violation of the Sabbath, was to result in the death of the violator, by his brothers and sisters. You, me,, and everyone you know (I bet) has violated it, I would have been gone years ago. In this time period there would be all kinds of consequences of a faith killing Sabbath violators, so I am very thankful that Paul under inspiration penned those words of Jehovah.

You are exactly correct how you interpreted I and my Father are one! Many people use that verse to mean that Jesus is Jehovah in the flesh, but Jesus clearly explained it in his famous prayer recorded for us at Jn 17. Any sinless individual is one with Jehovah. We of course cannot say that as we all have sinned.

There had to have been a time in Witness history that the Sabbath was considered compulsory for believers, no? I've actually been thinking of trying to hunt down some old Witness teaching material to see if that is the case.
Yes sir, from 1513 BCE till 33/36 CE, I put in 36 because the Law covenant was kept in force till the end of the week Barn Dan. (Daniel 9:27) 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.. . .

I have yet to have anyone tell me that this Sabbath abrogation thing was going on in the mid-to-late-20th century.

And I can't see how folks can believe that the Christian church was out of the loop for almost 2000 years on their duty to God as regards the 4th commandment. Aren't the main Kingdom Hall worship services held every Sunday?
Lengthy subject Barn, in a nut shell, there would be a period of apostasy until the end of the appointed times of the nations at which point Jesus would sit on God's throne. 2 Thes 2:3. By the end of the apostles life, that apostasy was already well established and John penned about the many antichrists that had came on the scene. It was prophesied that when Jesus took the crown, and we entered into the last days God's people who were growing among the weeds would be brought together again. Isa 2:2,3 repeated at Micah 4:1,2. We believe that we have been in this period for over 100 yrs now, so one should be able to identify those people by Scripture.


Aren't these questions worth asking, Bob? :)

Amen Barn, when everlasting life is on the line, there are no stupid questions sir. In fact I truly appreciate your asking me, and allowing me to bear testimony for my God on those concerns.[/QUOTE]
I may not agree with everything you offer, but I like your attitude.

 

[BarneyFife]

I may not agree with everything you offer, but I like your attitude.

I think if we had a "nicest guy" contest he'd definitely have no worries.

 

[BarneyFife]

Jesus was the only conservative who stood up to the liberalism and self-esteem of the Pharisees and Sadducees, showing them that their traditions of men and superstition were contrary to God's Will, Law and Righteousness.

You've got things skewed in your mind, mate.

Christians have really got to get it out of their head that conservativism and liberalism was a thing in Jesus's day. The Sadducees were just as uptight as the Pharisees. They were basically deistic objectivists who didn't believe in the afterlife or angels. They were bootstrap guys. They would have loved Ayn Rand

 

[Jim B]

That is so true Forrest, what one does is what makes one righteous. Therefore Biblical doctrine must be understood as we have to worship God with spirit, and truth. It cannot be our truths, rather God's truths.

Not according to the Bible. "For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law." Romans 3:28

"For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." Romans 4:13

"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1

"Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith." Galatians 3:11

"Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith." Galatians 3:24

"But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38

"By faith Abel offered God a greater sacrifice than Cain, and through his faith he was commended as righteous, because God commended him for his offerings. And through his faith he still speaks, though he is dead." Hebrews 11:4

"By faith Noah, when he was warned about things not yet seen, with reverent regard constructed an ark for the deliverance of his family. Through faith he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith." Hebrews 11:7

Clearly, what one does is what not what makes one righteous. Righteousness is by faith.

 

[BarneyFife]

"By faith Abel offered God a greater sacrifice than Cain, and through his faith he was commended as righteous, because God commended him for his offerings. And through his faith he still speaks, though he is dead." Hebrews 11:4

"By faith Noah, when he was warned about things not yet seen, with reverent regard constructed an ark for the deliverance of his family. Through faith he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith." Hebrews 11:7

Clearly, what one does is what not what makes one righteous. Righteousness is by faith.

Clearly, is it? Looks a lot like the book of James to me.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I generally agree with your posts, but not this one. Liberalism is not and never was a virulent cancer. It is the only hope that we have to save society.

I object to your saying that I, as a liberal, "twist the scriptures". Can you give me an example?

Finally, I believe that Jesus was one of the great liberals! He stood up to the conservative Pharisees and Sadducees, showing them that their legalism and self-righteousness were contrary to God's will. Not much has changed!

Liberal Christianity is the kind of Christianity that does some of the following:

1.Scripture is not the Word of God but contains the Word of God
2. Gays can practice their homosexuality and still be considered members in good standing.
3. Lot of "pro choice people.
4. More than one way to salvation

among many others. I don't know what causes you to be liberal societally or politically., but I do not believe you hold to things like this.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your arguments are pretty playgroundish. Just saying. Look 'em over. Lotta bluster.

Not enough conviction to make a thoughtful case?

I gave you some scriptures, why don't you respond to them?

You can't even be bothered to capitalize the name of the Saviour of the world?

Short on time or somethin'?

I'm just sayin', it looks like an afterthought.

You don't address half of the stuff addressed to you and you just phone in the rest.

Not trying to be disrespectful, honestly, but come on, man.

I am glad to see you can spot the more in my eye with the beam in yours!

I answer and you ignore- why should I answer every post when you ignore the ones from Scripture you disagree with?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where is there in scripture anything requiring a conversion to Judaism? Conversion required always a return to God... The church in the OT was merely God's instrument in teaching and explaining the law and demonstrating the love of God... His character... To the world. The first and foremost thing for any one outside of Israel was to acknowledge the Good of Israel and keep His Commandments. You didn't absolutely need Israel to do that.

There was no church in trhe OT- there was Israel, those are not interchangable words.

And as I have already posted- the Sabbath is a covenant and sign between god and Israel. Not for gentiles as gentiles.

I agree fully with what Isaiah said! In its context and not ripping it out of context and placing it where it does not belong!

KJV Acts 13:42-44
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of the Lord.

YOu also seem to forget that Paul when he went into all cities outside of Israel always went to teh Jew first to preach to them! So of course he would speak on the Sabbath! Both in synagogue and on the streets!


Exodus 31:12-18
King James Version

12 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

As we have no open command for teh church to keep Sabbath- this is the guiding priniciple concerning Sabbath for all time. But Gentile followers of Jesus are free to observe the Sabbath if they wish.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There ya go. All that came out of Egypt were a mixed multitude. Not one race of people. Now read the Deut. verse 100x.

Won't make any difference to you because you have no eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

Well I tire of your judgmental spirit. But I already explained which Gentiles had to keep Sabbath- have the last word.

YOu spirit is to dark and legalistic for me to stomach anymore.