The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[ewq1938]

It doesn't disturb me at all because those things are not part of Christ's kingdom. Nice try.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

Yes, it is a lovely kingdom. It's too bad that you have no understanding of it.

Your current Millennial kingdom is made up of filth. You call it lovely. No surprise there.

 

[PinSeeker]

You apparently don't know anything about me since I am Post-trib.

I very much understand that, EWQ. As a pre-millennialist, you believe that after a period of severe tribulation of the earth, Christ will visibly and bodily return and will then rule and reign on the earth for a period of one thousand years of peace and prosperity. This is pre-millennialism, and it can be subdivided into two groups: historicism and futurism. You're very much the latter ~ futurist ~ in that you believe none of the End Times prophecies will be fulfilled until a short period before the Parousia. Then... :) futurists can be further subdivided into three groups based on their belief of when the Rapture (or catching away) of the Church will take place: pre-tribulationists, mid-tribulationists, and post-tribulationists, and based on your statement here, you are a post-tribulationist and as such believe the Rapture is not a separate event and takes place in conjunction with the Lord’s Second Coming. So in these respects, I know all about you. :)

BTW, "nunc-mill" is the worst sounding word I have ever heard. But it's a latin prefix Now-Mill would be a million times better. Or the Greek nun, Nun-Mill. But this still isn't fully in line with what the terms are supposed to represent.

LOL! The 'nunc' prefix is latin, EWQ, which is translated in English to 'now.' And that's parallel to the 'pre' and 'post' Latin prefixes, but we just use them extensively, so that's pretty much why they "sound better," because we're used to them, really. Anyway, yes, 'nunc,' 'now,' 'nun'... all the same: now, at this time, and very much in line.

Nunc or Now or Nun doesn't address the return of Christ...

Of course it does. But it says that Christ's first coming and subsequent life, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension initiated the millennium. Which is what scripture says, particularly Revelation 20:1-3... "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in His hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended"... which corresponds intensely to what Jesus Himself said in Matthew 12:28-29... "But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless He first binds the strong man? Then indeed He may plunder his house."

...Amillennialism is really Post-mill as they believe the return of Christ comes after the Millennium is over.

What seems a bit funny to me is that you're saying here that amillennialism does actually address the return of Christ, refuting your own statement immediately above... :) Anyway, yes, it's like Post-mill in that one respect, yes. But very unlike it in that post-millennialists believe, like pre-millennialists, that God's millennium has not yet begun and that the millennium and tribulation are separate and distinct from each other.

Of course the best one is Pre-mill since that is the only biblically accurate position.

Everybody thinks they're right... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

Then... :) futurists can be further subdivided into three groups based on their belief of when the Rapture (or catching away) of the Church will take place: pre-tribulationists, mid-tribulationists, and post-tribulationists, and based on your statement here, you are a post-tribulationist and as such believe the Rapture is not a separate event and takes place in conjunction with the Lord’s Second Coming. So in these respects, I know all about you. :)

After correction. You originally said I was pre-trib.

LOL! The 'nunc' prefix is latin, EWQ

This is correct, Pin.

Of course it does. But it says that Christ's first coming and subsequent life, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension initiated the millennium.

Prove it using scripture.

Which is what scripture says, particularly Revelation 20:1-3... "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in His hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended"... which corresponds intensely to what Jesus Himself said in Matthew 12:28-29... "But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless He first binds the strong man? Then indeed He may plunder his house."

Was the strong man bound in Christ's life or ours? There is nothing to indicate it would happen any time near his speaking those words. Also, was the strong man imprisoned in a pit that had a lock on it and was it sealed after being locked? Perhaps Jesus is teaching a lesson related but not exact to satan's Revelation 20 imprisonment?

What seems a bit funny to me is that you're saying here that amillennialism does actually address the return of Christ, refuting your own statement immediately above... :)

The name doesn't have anything related to the timing of his return, unlike Premill.

Anyway, yes, it's like Post-mill in that one respect, yes.

Yes, in name which is what I was talking about.

Everybody thinks they're right... :)

Yes but not all can prove they are right.

 

[Timtofly]

What seems a bit funny to me is that you're saying here that amillennialism does actually address the return of Christ, refuting your own statement immediately above... :) Anyway, yes, it's like Post-mill in that one respect, yes. But very unlike it in that post-millennialists believe, like pre-millennialists, that God's millennium has not yet begun and that the millennium and tribulation are separate and distinct from each other.

The difference between Amill and postmill is that one is pessimistic, and the other optimistic.

If Adam's flesh lives on for another 100 years, I can see pre-mill fading and post mill taking the spotlight from Amil. They will surely have to say within 3,000 years from the Cross, Jesus needs to come back. That would be the theme for the next 800 years.

Augustine was a little premature to declare Amil. It had only been about 350 years. Augustine knew as much about 1000AD, as we do about 2200AD. Literally nothing.

 

[PinSeeker]

After correction. You originally said I was pre-trib.

Sure, well, both the pre- and post-trib classifications fall under pre-millennialism. The whole pre-mill schema, regardless of sub-classification, is terribly convoluted, which should tell you something. :)

This is correct, Pin.

PinSeeker. Yes, I know it's correct, which is why I said it. And it was in response to your saying "'nunc-mill' is the worst sounding word I have ever heard." My point was that it's very much parallel to pre-mill and post-mill in that respect; they are all Latin prefixes. So, that it's the worst-sounding word you've ever heard is of no consequence. If you want to think of the three vies as now-millennialism (nunc), before-millennialism (pre), and after-millennialism (post), then I'm good with that, because that would be just as descriptive, and just as parallel.

Prove it using scripture.

I assume you mean here for me to prove that His coming, life, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension initiated the millennium. I actually did that in the post you're responding to here ~ though you won't buy it ~ in quoting Revelation 20:1-3 and Matthew 12:28-29.

Was the strong man bound in Christ's life or ours?

Yes. :) Jesus demonstrated over and over again that Satan was powerless to prevent Him from proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom and demonstrating the reality of its presence through His work and His words. Satan's "house" represents the sinful world over which, until the (first) coming of Christ, he had such power. Jesus has come to plunder his house and rescue people for the kingdom of God. Jesus Himself proclaimed this, reading from Isaiah 61, at the outset of His public ministry:

"'The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.' ... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." (Luke 4:18-21)

And Paul says it too, in his letter to the Colossians:

"He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son..." (Colossians 1:13).

...was the strong man imprisoned in a pit that had a lock on it and was it sealed after being locked?

Revelation is apocalyptic literature, ewq1938, and John's dream/vision. It should not be read like a history textbook. It's simple, but not simplistic.

Perhaps Jesus is teaching a lesson related but not exact to satan's Revelation 20 imprisonment?

Both.

The name doesn't have anything related to the timing of his return, unlike Premill.

But yet you say, in the very same breath, that it does. That's a curious thing, but you're welcome to your opinion.

Yes but not all can prove they are right.

Agreed.

 

[PinSeeker]

The difference between Amill and postmill is that one is pessimistic, and the other optimistic.

Disagree wholeheartedly.

If Adam's flesh lives on for another 100 years, I can see pre-mill fading and post mill taking the spotlight from Amil.

As a wise man since gone to be with the Lord once told me, time and truth are on the same side. :)

Augustine was a little premature to declare Amil. It had only been about 350 years. Augustine knew as much about 1000AD, as we do about 2200AD. Literally nothing.

LOL! Again, time and truth are on the same side.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Disagree wholeheartedly.

Are you being pessimistic or optimistic?

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you being pessimistic or optimistic?

Really, the answer to this question is yes. :) Not to be cryptic, of course, but, well, pessimistic about what, and optimistic about what?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. You need to offer commentary by one or more of them so they can explain. The word is plural in the manuscripts.

LOL. No, I don't need to do that. You can see how they translated it. Singular kingdom. It's not plural no matter how much you want to say that it is. Also, there is no other scripture you can point to which teaches this concept of Jesus ruling over multiple kingdoms on earth in the future. So, why interpret the verse in such a way that can't be supported by other scripture? Why does that not matter to you?

No, I did not come across like that. That was your own personal poor comprehension. It is plural in that verse in the manuscripts.

No, it isn't.

You, that's you and your false accusations and assumptions. I said kingdoms is plural in that verse according to the Greek and you turned that into me claiming every time the word is used in scripture it is plural which I never said. That is dishonest and instead of apologizing you double down on it. You are close to my ignore list. Continue these lies and it will happen without me saying anything.

I could not care less if you put me on your ignore list. I'm not lying at all and you know it. It is undeniable that you're trying to insist that the word has to be plural in Revelation 11:15 and that is what I'm claiming that you're doing. That is not a lie and you know that. You just can't handle it when someone disagrees with you. Why do you debate these things when you're so thin-skinned? It makes no sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your current Millennial kingdom is made up of filth. You call it lovely. No surprise there.

It's no surprise that you completely ignored the verse I quoted that shows the nature of the kingdom, which that it's a spiritual kingdom of peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit. Your carnal way of looking at things prevents you from seeing what type of kingdom it actually is.

 

[Timtofly]

Really, the answer to this question is yes. :) Not to be cryptic, of course, but, well, pessimistic about what, and optimistic about what?

Grace and peace to you.

You disagreed wholeheartedly. Amil normally don't see things getting better and better, that would be postmill. Postmill claim that people will get near perfect, then Jesus can return. One sees a pessimistic ending the other an optimistic ending. Otherwise they are basically the same, as neither allow Jesus Himself to personally Come to earth and reign for 1,000 years.

 

[ewq1938]

It's no surprise that you completely ignored the verse I quoted that shows the nature of the kingdom, which that it's a spiritual kingdom of peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit.

I can see the world for what it is now and it is not anything that you pretend that it is. You are wrong, plainly and clearly.

 

[ewq1938]

Sure, well, both the pre- and post-trib classifications fall under pre-millennialism. The whole pre-mill schema, regardless of sub-classification, is terribly convoluted, which should tell you something. :)

That's Amillennialism not Premillennialism.

PinSeeker.

So you called me EWQ and that was ok but when I call you Pin, it's not ok?

I assume you mean here for me to prove that His coming, life, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension initiated the millennium. I actually did that in the post you're responding to here ~ though you won't buy it ~ in quoting Revelation 20:1-3 and Matthew 12:28-29.

Neither are contextually related to his life, death, resurrection or ascension. Revelation 20 is WAY LONG after those things, after he has returned and raised the dead in Christ to rule with him.

Yes. :) Jesus demonstrated over and over again that Satan was powerless to prevent Him from proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom and demonstrating the reality of its presence through His work and His words. Satan's "house" represents the sinful world over which, until the (first) coming of Christ, he had such power. Jesus has come to plunder his house and rescue people for the kingdom of God. Jesus Himself proclaimed this, reading from Isaiah 61, at the outset of His public ministry:

"'The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.' ... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." (Luke 4:18-21)

satan is actively blocking the gospel all over the world and has been for tens of hundreds of years. Go to the middle east or China and try spreading the gospel.

Revelation is apocalyptic literature, ewq1938, and John's dream/vision. It should not be read like a history textbook.

That's Premillennialism language. Most Amills if not all are Partial Preterists. They believe the Great Tribulation and all of Revelation 13 etc is fulfilled in the past and does in fact read as a history book. Premills stand against that as futurists.

But yet you say, in the very same breath, that it does.

You confuse me for another because I don't say that. I explained it all already and see no reason to do it again.

 

[PinSeeker]

You disagreed wholeheartedly.

Ah, you don't want to answer the question... :) Okay, never mind; withdrawn. :)

Amil normally don't see things getting better and better...

Yeah so you're just talking about worldly things. You're just talking about what you perceive to be a difference between A-mill folks and Post-mill folks, but how do you ~ as a Pre-mill, futurist, post-trib person (wow; that's a mouthful, right? :)) ~ see it? Would you call yourself an optimist? You don't have to answer that, either, because it really doesn't matter.

But just for discussion: Regarding worldly things, yes, things are not getting better and better. That's just reality. Take a look around you, Timtofly, and surely you would agree (I think/hope). Are we making progress on things, even a lot of things? Sure! But are things "getting better and better?" Can we look back through history and see things really getting better? Progress on many things, but really getting better? I say no. The world is not really getting "better," just different. Take the issue of race, for example. Sure, we don't have slavery in America like we did 160-plus years ago, but is racism gone? No, and many would say that it's really at least just as bad as it ever was (many would say worse), but just different... "under the table," so to speak, in most cases, but surely not nearly all, which is just terrible. Surely you've heard the old saying, "the more things change, the more they stay the same." The Bible teaches that throughout, from Genesis 3 on. I think if you take a good hard look at things in the Bible ~ like the judgment God places on Adam and Eve and all humanity after the Fall in Genesis 3, Solomon (probably) saying "there is nothing new under the sun" many times in Ecclesiastes, and even Jesus saying "you always have the poor with you" in Matthew 26:11 ~ you will (should, anyway) see that the Bible never says anything about things truly getting better ~ regarding worldly things ~ until Jesus comes back, when God makes everything new. Maybe you agree with that, and maybe you don't, but no matter; that's just reality. As the writer of Hebrews says:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:1-2)​

One sees a pessimistic ending the other an optimistic ending. Otherwise they are basically the same, as neither allow Jesus Himself to personally Come to earth and reign for 1,000 years.

Well, A-mill folks see the struggle continuing in earnest until Jesus comes back. Post-mill... yes, I guess we could say they are... overly optimistic about how things will go. :) And, post-mill folks believe that Christ will return after Christians (not Christ Himself) have established the kingdom on this earth. I would say ~ and you may, even as a Pre-mill, futurist, post-trib person, agree ~ that the understanding that Christians and not Christ Himself establish the kingdom on this earth is totally unbiblical.

 

[PinSeeker]

...current Millennial kingdom is made up of filth.

That's actually, from a worldly perspective, regarding the world, true. But yet there is still blessing to be had in it. And Jesus will rectify all that once and for all at the end of the age. He will separate the wheat from the tares. Everlasting joy shall be upon our heads, and we shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away (Isaiah 35:10). The Lamb in the midst of the throne, will be our Shepherd, and God will wipe away every tear from our eyes (Revelation 7, 21), and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away (Revelation 21).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

That's actually, from a worldly perspective, regarding the world, true. But yet there is still blessing to be had in it.

You aren't describing the Millennium but just the normal world full of evil and sin but sure, some opportunities for blessing and people to get saved. In the real Millennium the world will be ruled by a Christian Theocracy. All Christian moral values will be enforced by a rod of iron. There will be no false religions, gangs, drug use and wars etc. The gospel will be unhindered as it is in Amill's false millennium.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker said: The whole pre-mill schema, regardless of sub-classification, is terribly convoluted...

That's Amillennialism not Premillennialism.

LOL! No... :)

Neither are contextually related to his life, death, resurrection or ascension. Revelation 20 is WAY LONG after those things, after he has returned and raised the dead in Christ to rule with him.

So you think. No, Revelation 20:1-3 corresponds to His first coming and life on earth, Revelation 20:4-6 corresponds to the current church age, and Revelation 20:7-15 correspond to what will be at the end of the age... and then Revelation 21, all things are made new and eternity begins.

satan is actively blocking the gospel all over the world and has been for tens of hundreds of years. Go to the middle east or China and try spreading the gospel.

China is a great example. If you don't believe Christianity is exploding there, despite the government... wow. Africa, too. My goodness.

PinSeeker: Revelation is apocalyptic literature, ewq1938, and John's dream/vision. It should not be read like a history textbook.

That's Premillennialism language.

It is what it is. Revelation is apocalyptic literature, ewq1938, and John's dream/vision. It should not be read like a history textbook. But yet that's how Pre-mill folks read it; like a history textbook, like a "puzzle" book, rather than the picture book that it is. I would encourage you to read this:

The Returning King: A Guide to the Book of Revelation

Most Amills if not all are Partial Preterists. They believe the Great Tribulation and all of Revelation 13 etc is fulfilled in the past and does in fact read as a history book.

Nope.

Premills stand against that as futurists.

Well, futurist, post-trib pre-millennial folks like you may, but most pre-millennial folks these days fall into the pre-tribulation bucket. It's all kind of a big rabbit hole. :)

ewq1938: The name doesn't have anything related to the timing of his return, unlike Premill.
PinSeeker: But yet you say, in the very same breath, that it does.

You confuse me for another because I don't say that.

Well you did. Not in so many words, but you did.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

You aren't describing the Millennium but just the normal world full of evil and sin...

They are concurrent. These time periods are one and the same:

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26)

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6)

In the real Millennium the world will be ruled by a Christian Theocracy. All Christian moral values will be enforced by a rod of iron.

Ugh. No. Jesus's kingdom is not of this world, and will never be. My goodness. Where do you get such an idea?

There will be no false religions, gangs, drug use and wars etc.

Well, yes, no more sin... in the new heaven and new earth. But the millennium, not so much. :) Unless somehow you think Revelation 21 comes before Revelation 20, but you don't, right? :)

The gospel will be unhindered as it is in Amill's false millennium.

The Gospel is unhindered now, ewq1938. Thus Jesus's mandate, what we call the Great Commission, to His disciples ~and by extension to all of us ~ to "(g)o therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20) The Gospel is not hindered in any way.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Ah, you don't want to answer the question... :) Okay, never mind; withdrawn. :)


Yeah so you're just talking about worldly things. You're just talking about what you perceive to be a difference between A-mill folks and Post-mill folks, but how do you ~ as a Pre-mill, futurist, post-trib person (wow; that's a mouthful, right? :)) ~ see it? Would you call yourself an optimist? You don't have to answer that, either, because it really doesn't matter.

But just for discussion: Regarding worldly things, yes, things are not getting better and better. That's just reality. Take a look around you, Timtofly, and surely you would agree (I think/hope). Are we making progress on things, even a lot of things? Sure! But are things "getting better and better?" Can we look back through history and see things really getting better? Progress on many things, but really getting better? I say no. The world is not really getting "better," just different. Take the issue of race, for example. Sure, we don't have slavery in America like we did 160-plus years ago, but is racism gone? No, and many would say that it's really at least just as bad as it ever was (many would say worse), but just different... "under the table," so to speak, in most cases, but surely not nearly all, which is just terrible. Surely you've heard the old saying, "the more things change, the more they stay the same." The Bible teaches that throughout, from Genesis 3 on. I think if you take a good hard look at things in the Bible ~ like the judgment God places on Adam and Eve and all humanity after the Fall in Genesis 3, Solomon (probably) saying "there is nothing new under the sun" many times in Ecclesiastes, and even Jesus saying "you always have the poor with you" in Matthew 26:11 ~ you will (should, anyway) see that the Bible never says anything about things truly getting better ~ regarding worldly things ~ until Jesus comes back, when God makes everything new. Maybe you agree with that, and maybe you don't, but no matter; that's just reality. As the writer of Hebrews says:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:1-2)​

Well, A-mill folks see the struggle continuing in earnest until Jesus comes back. Post-mill... yes, I guess we could say they are... overly optimistic about how things will go. :) And, post-mill folks believe that Christ will return after Christians (not Christ Himself) have established the kingdom on this earth. I would say ~ and you may, even as a Pre-mill, futurist, post-trib person, agree ~ that the understanding that Christians and not Christ Himself establish the kingdom on this earth is totally unbiblical.

I have pointed out the majority of this current kingdom are physically enjoying Paradise. No more sin and death.

Christ will make that a reality on earth for 1,000 years. I guess you can say that is being optimistic. I am not talking about worldly things though. Is that what Amil and postmill are describing? I thought it was that the people of the world would fully embrace Christianity, even if they did not believe in the Atonement, itself.

 

[ewq1938]

So you think. No, Revelation 20:1-3 corresponds to His first coming and life on earth

Nope. It starts with those who died in the Great Tribulation who refuse the mark of the beast. That happens in Revelation 13, which is LONG after the death of Christ. Nothing you say matches what Revelation 20 says.

, Revelation 20:4-6 corresponds to the current church age,

No, the physically dead are not being resurrected.

China is a great example. If you don't believe Christianity is exploding there, despite the government... wow. Africa, too. My goodness.

The gospel is being hindered and Christians being jailed and killed. satan rules this world as Christ said.

It is what it is. Revelation is apocalyptic literature, ewq1938, and John's dream/vision. It should not be read like a history textbook. But yet that's how Pre-mill folks read it

Wrong, that's how the Partial Preterist Amills read it. Premills are futurists. You apparently don't know your own doctrine let alone mine.

Well, futurist, post-trib pre-millennial folks like you may, but most pre-millennial folks these days fall into the pre-tribulation bucket. It's all kind of a big rabbit hole. :)

Pretribs get the Premillennialism part right but the rest wrong. Amills get the post-trib part right but the rest wrong. Most Amills and most Pretribs have something in common, both think "Jesus" can return at any moment.

Well you did. Not in so many words, but you did.

No I didn't which is why you do not prove it by quoting me. Typical accusatory Amillennial behavior.