"GOD WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME"

[BarneyFife]

Has anyone even addressed my question.
Nope everyone just ignoring it and trying to take the topic else where...

Again...

If Jesus is God then why does He pray and talk to himself?
How can one abandon themselves?

Very few have tried to address this and im still yet to read a valid answer to this. One that makes sense

And when God says "this is my son" you really have to use mental gymnastics to try and twist that into something that makes no sense and is totally illogical

I'd be happy to address your question.

I haven't the foggiest idea why God has chosen to manifest Himself the way He has.

I just read the Bible and pray that the Holy Spirit will teach me what I need to do to know God, whom to know is life eternal, and Jesus Christ, the Son whom He has sent.

And you're perfectly welcome to slice and dice this up any way you like. :)

 

[Hidden In Him]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

He was simply quoting Psalm 22 to say it had now been fulfilled in their ears, particularly v.8 and v.14-18.

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent... 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 "He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him"... 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not Thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

 

[BarneyFife]

Wouldn't Jesus have just said to pray to the Father through the Father? Instructing us to pray to the Father through Jesus makes Jesus equal with the Father, no?

No, it doesn't. This is the problem with these kinds of discussions. People will just say any misguided thing to defend their beliefs.

I believe Jesus and the Father are One, because Jesus says so and He doesn't lie.

But mediation inherently indicates a third party, which by your logic would make Jesus separate from the Father—not equal—which He isn't because He says They are One and He doesn't lie.

Sorry, don't mean to be cross. :)

 

[friend of]

But mediation inherently indicates a third party, which by your logic would make Jesus separate from the Father—not equal—which He isn't because He says They are One and He doesn't lie.

No actually it's the opposite. Jesus was and is the direct line to God the Father.

 

[BarneyFife]

No actually it's the opposite. Jesus was and is the direct line to God the Father.

Sure, He's Jacob's ladder. I get it. It's just that the mediation model you're using is not conducive to proving oneness, because it intrinsically separates Them. A mediator is a third party in a dispute between two interests. The fact that He fills the office doesn't change the fact that it's not good evidence for the claim of oneness. An electric wire can't be also a switch or a light fixture/bulb.

 

[MatthewG]

Just love God and love others and you won’t have to worry about theological debates.

what you believe is what you do. No need to address yourself because what is in your heart God sees it very clearly.

 

[friend of]

Sure, He's Jacob's ladder. I get it. It's just that the mediation model you're using is not conducive to proving oneness, because it intrinsically separates Them. A mediator is a third party in a dispute between two interests. The fact that He fills the office doesn't change the fact that it's not good evidence for the claim of oneness. An electric wire can't be also a switch or a light fixture/bulb.

We know He is the mediator but we also know Jesus explicitly stated He and the Father are One.

So yeah, your definition of mediator is not critical.

 

[BarneyFife]

We know He is the mediator but we also know Jesus explicitly stated He and the Father are One.

So yeah, your definition of mediator is not critical.

Okeydoke

 

[Cristo Rei]

I’m not claiming Jesus is God either but his Son. How am I confused by asking that question? I’m merely stating that Jesus wouldn’t ask people to pray to his father if he was the father, he would say pray to me for I am God.

Ok cool I misunderstood you

 

[Cristo Rei]

Because He is not the Father. Christ's entire life was to demonstrate the ultimate pattern to follow while on earth. Christ prayed to the Father, so should we. Same reason Jesus was baptized. Baptism didn't make Him holier or more divine, He did it as a pattern to follow.

That's what I think as well.
Thanks for your input

 

[Cristo Rei]

Yes, that is the point right there.

What I am trying to do here is to explore what the Trinity doctrine is - and what it is not. The way you phrased your question in the OP indicates that your understanding of the Trinity Doctrine was that it claims that "Jesus" and "God" were the same "Person" as they relate to each other in prayer, which is not what the doctrine says.

"Persons" relate to each other, as you and I relate. Jesus and the Heavenly Father relate to each other as different person-units. "Essence" (Greek ὁμοούσιος, "homoousious", "of the same essence"), I put out there for everybody's input. Is it what they're made of, or their nature, or what they are... ?

I don't understand the Trinity...
The RCC says its a mystery and that is probably the best explanation I think

 

[Cristo Rei]

I'd be happy to address your question.

I haven't the foggiest idea why God has chosen to manifest Himself the way He has.

I just read the Bible and pray that the Holy Spirit will teach me what I need to do to know God, whom to know is life eternal, and Jesus Christ, the Son whom He has sent.

And you're perfectly welcome to slice and dice this up any way you like. :)

Cool. Thanks for sharing

 

[Cristo Rei]

He was simply quoting Psalm 22 to say it had now been fulfilled in their ears, particularly v.8 and v.14-18.

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent... 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 "He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him"... 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not Thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

Cool. Thanks for sharing

 

[Hidden In Him]

Cool. Thanks for sharing

You got it, Bro. ;)

 

[Cristo Rei]

lol....because thats how he felt.....and by the way Cristo, it's a question.

That's how he felt. That's what i thought as well but my question wasn't why did he say that.

My question was basically asking if Jesus is God then why is he talking to himself?

 

[Cristo Rei]

I just want to reiterate what I believe.
I think that Jesus is most likely the Son of God and not God himself.
But hey, I could be wrong cos I dont understand how Jesus can be God as well

 

[Lambano]

I don't understand the Trinity...
The RCC says its a mystery and that is probably the best explanation I think

Can't disagree with that.

 

[Lambano]

I just want to reiterate what I believe.
I think that Jesus is most likely the Son of God and not God himself.
But hey, I could be wrong cos I dont understand how Jesus can be God as well

How do you feel about, "Fully human and fully divine"?

 

[BarneyFife]

How do you feel about, "Fully human and fully devine"?

It's a scientific nightmare, that's for sure.

 

[Lambano]

It's a scientific nightmare, that's for sure.

It calls to mind a phrase an old pastor of mine used to use when we'd go over some of the more spectacular miracles in the Bible: "We're trying to put words to a phenomenon for which there are no words."