"GOD WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME"

[friend of]

Nowhere in the original scriptures does it talk about the Trinity or Godhead, that was added in later.

Why do you think Jesus taught us to pray to his father through him? The Lords Prayer.

Why would Jesus instruct us to pray to the Father "through Himself" if Jesus was not also God?

 

[JohnPaul]

What are you talking about. No idea. How about addressing my question in the op instead of avoiding it with irrelevant comments.
Or would you rather ignore scripture that doesn't support your belief?

Why would Jesus instruct us to pray to the Father "through Himself" if Jesus was not also God?

why did Jesus pray to the Father if he himself is the Father?

We can go on all day asking questions back and forth if you’d like.

 

[friend of]

Wouldn't Jesus have just said to pray to the Father through the Father? Instructing us to pray to the Father through Jesus makes Jesus equal with the Father, no?

 

[JohnPaul]

Wouldn't Jesus have just said to pray to the Father through the Father? Instructing us to pray to the Father through Jesus makes Jesus equal with the Father, no?

No it doesn’t.

 

[friend of]

Jesus did claim He was equal with the Father though. Which would have been blasphemy if untrue.

 

[JohnPaul]

Jesus did claim He was equal with the Father though. Which would have been blasphemy if untrue.

Like I said we can stand here and fight back and forth all day and night long, Jesus is the son of God Jehovah and I ain’t backing down!

 

[MatthewG]

@Cristo Rei thank you for your comment.

I’m not so interested in the trinity anymore.

the Bible says there is God, Gods Word and the Holy Spirit of God, these three are the one who make up the reality of Heaven.

Gods word came down and was born into flesh, named Jesus. God was with Jesus (Immanuel), and God was with him by the Holy Spirit. Jesus - soul (was the Word of God) and the expressed image of the Fathers (heart/mind/will/emotion).

God healed everyone that came to Jesus, through the body of Jesus when the person was touched, or commanded to do something.

That is how I see a lot of the text, I also see that Jesus in the end when God is all in all, as the Lord God Almighty - the Word becoming one with the Father as in the beginning.

Those are just my own thoughts about it now as I use to hold on to the trinity but now I don’t care and see it as not a salvation issue…

I could still be wrong and no one should believe me anyway but seek out the information in the Bible.

:) God bless!

 

[friend of]

Like I said we can stand here and fight back and forth all day and night long, Jesus is the son of God Jehovah and I ain’t backing down!

Every Christian is a son of God, but not every Christian is Thee Son of God.

 

[JohnPaul]

Every Christian is a son of God, but not every Christian is Thee Son of God.

Exactly and Jesus is Thee Son of God Jehovah, see you said it yourself.

 

[friend of]

Exactly and Jesus is Thee Son of God Jehovah, see you said it yourself.

He is coeternal with the Father.

 

[Cristo Rei]

There is only one God Jehovah and his only begotten Son Jesus Christ our Savior, not two or three in one but two separate entities.

God the father and Christ his son.

That's what I think as well

 

[Cristo Rei]

He is part of the trinity.

You didn't address my question...

If Jesus is God then why does he pray and speak to himself?

Your answer would be appreciated

 

[Cristo Rei]

I can see that I lost you.

The Trinitarian doctrine states that God is three distinct persons sharing one essence. Your question postulates two distinct Persons talking to each other. What's unusual about that?

Now, one Essence talking to Himself...

Where I have problems is comprehending the distinction between "Essence" and "Personhood".

I'm not sure what you mean by essence or personhood.
I don't find it unusual for Jesus to speak to God.
What u do find unusual is for God to speak or pray to Himself.

 

[friend of]

You didn't address my question...

If Jesus is God then why does he pray and speak to himself?

Your answer would be appreciated

Because He is not the Father. Christ's entire life was to demonstrate the ultimate pattern to follow while on earth. Christ prayed to the Father, so should we. Same reason Jesus was baptized. Baptism didn't make Him holier or more divine, He did it as a pattern to follow.

 

[Cristo Rei]

why did Jesus pray to the Father if he himself is the Father?

We can go on all day asking questions back and forth if you’d like.

I think you may be a bit confused JP. We're on the same page, in agreement

I'm not claiming that Jesus is God at all and the question you asked is exactly the question I'm asking to people who do believe that God is Jesus

 

[Cristo Rei]

@Cristo Rei thank you for your comment.

I’m not so interested in the trinity anymore.

the Bible says there is God, Gods Word and the Holy Spirit of God, these three are the one who make up the reality of Heaven.

Gods word came down and was born into flesh, named Jesus. God was with Jesus (Immanuel), and God was with him by the Holy Spirit. Jesus - soul (was the Word of God) and the expressed image of the Fathers (heart/mind/will/emotion).

God healed everyone that came to Jesus, through the body of Jesus when the person was touched, or commanded to do something.

That is how I see a lot of the text, I also see that Jesus in the end when God is all in all, as the Lord God Almighty - the Word becoming one with the Father as in the beginning.

Those are just my own thoughts about it now as I use to hold on to the trinity but now I don’t care and see it as not a salvation issue…

I could still be wrong and no one should believe me anyway but seek out the information in the Bible.

:) God bless!

Thanks. I love your modesty.
I also could be wrong
God bless you my friend

 

[quietthinker]

"God why have you abandoned me"

If Jesus is God then why did He accuse Himself of abandonment???

It seems one has to apply some serious mental gymnastics or ignore this fact to be certain that Jesus is God

lol....because thats how he felt.....and by the way Cristo, it's a question.

 

[Lambano]

I'm not sure what you mean by essence or personhood.

Yes, that is the point right there.

What I am trying to do here is to explore what the Trinity doctrine is - and what it is not. The way you phrased your question in the OP indicates that your understanding of the Trinity Doctrine was that it claims that "Jesus" and "God" were the same "Person" as they relate to each other in prayer, which is not what the doctrine says.

"Persons" relate to each other, as you and I relate. Jesus and the Heavenly Father relate to each other as different person-units. "Essence" (Greek ὁμοούσιος, "homoousious", "of the same essence"), I put out there for everybody's input. Is it what they're made of, or their nature, or what they are... ?

 

[JohnPaul]

I think you may be a bit confused JP. We're on the same page, in agreement

I'm not claiming that Jesus is God at all and the question you asked is exactly the question I'm asking to people who do believe that God is Jesus

I’m not claiming Jesus is God either but his Son. How am I confused by asking that question? I’m merely stating that Jesus wouldn’t ask people to pray to his father if he was the father, he would say pray to me for I am God.

 

[friend of]

John 10:30

Jesus Himself says so.