What if you lose your faith?

[BloodBought 1953]

If people think they're OSAS even if they reject Jesus later, they're in for a big shock..:)

This verse is taken out of context.
The “ context” concerns Hebrews that were rejecting the Shed Blood Of Jesus for their Sins and returning to Temple worship where they trusted in the Blood Of animals to Atone for their sins....hence the seriousness of the verse....
“ Text without CONtext is Error!”

 

[BloodBought 1953]

It is based on your believing. It is in cumbent on the believer to LET the word of God remain in them in order for the believer to remain in the Son, the Father and the promise of eternal life. Just as it was incumbent on the believer to begin that believing in the first place.

To believe the Gospel That Saves a person, one must “ have their heart opened” to not only “ hear” it but actually BELIEVE it—— no different than “ Lydia, the Seller Of Purple”......why should Anybody be different from her?
That life- changing experience originated with God—- “ NOBODY comes to God lest the Spirit Draw them” ....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Sure AMEN.

What if a person turns away from God and wants nothing further to fo with Him?

“Though we might be Unfaithful—- HE REMAINS FAITHFUL”
If the Believer falls into Error —- even if he falls into “Unbelief”.....that unbelief is a sin.....and it’s covered by the Blood....

I once fell from Belief and became an Unbeliever.....God, in His Amazing Grace and Mercy brought me back.....I believe this will be the same experience for other who May have lost their Faith.... God will bring a Foolish and erring Sheep back into His Fold...and If He does not, the Mistake is covered by Grace...

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I agree that it's not an everyday occurence.

Don't you know anyone that has left the faith?

I do! It was Me....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Personally no, but no doubt some people can't stay the course, in which case I doubt whether they were true Christians in the first place..:)

"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7)

“ And who is it that ENDURES? ( or, “ Stays the Course”) .....it is he that Believes that Jesus is the Son Of God”....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Explain how this is legalism:

"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:24

"14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess." Hebrews 4:14

"23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
​

How is doing what the Bible tells us to do legalism?

It does not become Legalism until you claim that something other than Faith in the Gospel MUST be done to OBTAIN Salvation or KEEP Salvation....

If I say, “ Keep the Ten Commandments” , That is a Wise thing to try to do — you will be blessed for it!

If I say , “ You MUST keep the Commandments or you can’t be Saved!”—— you have crossed the line into Legalism....

 

[David H.]

It does not become Legalism until you claim that something other than Faith in the Gospel MUST be done to OBTAIN Salvation or KEEP Salvation....

If I say, “ Keep the Ten Commandments” , That is a Wise thing to try to do — you will be blessed for it!

If I say , “ You MUST keep the Commandments or you can’t be Saved!”—— you have crossed the line into Legalism....

Hey BB,
Hypothetical question for you...
Let us say someone falls into legalism, have they not "left the faith"? I say this with with regard to your "it was me" statement above.

see, for me as much as the "free gracers" speak of OSAS, yet they in many cases hold this as the exception to the rule, that falling into legalism is what violates this rule. from my perspective, and experience, we each as believers go through times in our life where we doubt our salvation, and must come to the assurance of our salvation, and throughout that back and forth (swinging to and fro as Paul puts it) we go through stages we are more legalistic and ones where we are less so. God Knows the heart of each of us, whether legalistic or lawless, whether we are forcing asceticism upon ourselves or whether we are in throws of liberty and resting in the grace of God.... I see this as all part of each individual believers journey until we come to the full assurance of the faith, and scripture in so doing promotes both "sides" of this debate to account for where each individual believer is in their walk. Thoughts?

God bless.

 

[Dropship]

This verse is taken out of context.
The “ context” concerns Hebrews that were rejecting the Shed Blood Of Jesus for their Sins and returning to Temple worship where they trusted in the Blood Of animals to Atone for their sins....hence the seriousness of the verse....
“ Text without CONtext is Error!”

"How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot...it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:29-31)
The verse surely applies to ALL Jesus-rejecters past present and future, not just Jews..:)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“Though we might be Unfaithful—- HE REMAINS FAITHFUL”
If the Believer falls into Error —- even if he falls into “Unbelief”.....that unbelief is a sin.....and it’s covered by the Blood....

No, because in that very same passage he says if you deny him he will deny you. Being an unfaithful Christian, and rejecting him outright in unbelief are far and wide two different things. The unfaithful believer struggling with sin, and even doubt, is covered by the blood he still trusts in. But the believer who rejects Christ in outright unbelief is an ex-believer. And Paul and John made it clear the person who denies Christ will himself be denied by Christ. No unbeliever remains in the Son and the Father. No unbeliever is saved. No unbeliever is born again. No unbeliever will be in the kingdom of God at the end of the age.

I once fell from Belief and became an Unbeliever.....God, in His Amazing Grace and Mercy brought me back.....I believe this will be the same experience for other who May have lost their Faith.... God will bring a Foolish and erring Sheep back into His Fold...and If He does not, the Mistake is covered by Grace...

That is completely false. You won't remain in the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life if the word does not remain in you:

"23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 John 2:23-25
​

Can and will God bring you back? Depends on the circumstances of your unbelief.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

To believe the Gospel That Saves a person, one must “ have their heart opened” to not only “ hear” it but actually BELIEVE it—

Yes, God does the calling, we do the believing, and receiving. For it is not enough to just know the gospel is true. One must receive in faith and trust what God has shown them to be true. And that is where transformation occurs, in the receiving of the word. For there are many people who know the gospel is true but who have yet to place their trust in it, receiving and retaining it in their hearts. I spent about two years in that condition just before I was born again.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If I say , “ You MUST keep the Commandments or you can’t be Saved!”—— you have crossed the line into Legalism....

It depends on what a person means by that. It is legalism if what they mean is keeping the commandments of God earns you salvation as a reward of debt that God owes you for that obedience. That is legalism. But if they mean saved people keep the commandments of God, and unsaved people don't, then that is not legalism.

"3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome, 4because everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1 John 5:3-4

"24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him." 1 John 3:24​

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Yes, God does the calling, we do the believing, and receiving. For it is not enough to just know the gospel is true. One must receive in faith and trust what God has shown them to be true. And that is where transformation occurs, in the receiving of the word. For there are many people who know the gospel is true but who have yet to place their trust in it, receiving and retaining it in their hearts. I spent about two years in that condition just before I was born again.

One PROVES that they Trust and Believe the Gospel by RESTING in it.....You fail to Rest in it....You and your ilk Are, in fact, “ Ashamed Of The Gospel” .....you Prove that by ADDING to it .....in your heart of hearts you simply do not Believe the first part of it—- “ Jesus died for your Sins” .....If you truly Believed that , you would know that there is NO WAY you can be damned for your sins....what sins did Jesus Sacrifice NOT cover .....there are NO sins left for you to be condemned for

Your Big Thing is Repenting from Sins and if you die with Unrepentant Sins on your record, you are damned.... The “ ALL - SUFFICIENT “ Price for Sins, purchased at the Cross by the Shed Blood Of Christ does not exist in your world —- and neither does Grace ....You Reject The Grace that God uses to Save Souls because you do not Trust it.....and tgatvus because you just can’t accept the FACT that Jesus actually DID die for your Sins.....and if He did not die for ALL of them, it was a waste of time, because you are a Sinner from the second that you are born until the second that you die....One needs to make sure that their Sins are Covered when they die—- that is the purpose of Grace....If you Reject that Saving Grace,you have automatically Rejected the Gospel Of Grace.....Unlike Paul, you were “ Ashamed of the Gospel”—— it needed your help.....Jesus needed a “ Co-Savior” .....That guy turned out to be you.....

Some things must be discerned Spiritually ....TRUE Believers KNOW the unmistakable validity of OSAS in their hearts....Those That merely pay “ lip- service” to the Fact That Jesus died for ALL of your sins and lack the Faith to REST in that , as ordered in Hebrews 3 and 4 may be lacking a certain Spirit....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

It depends on what a person means by that. It is legalism if what they mean is keeping the commandments of God earns you salvation as a reward of debt that God owes you for that obedience. That is legalism. But if they mean saved people keep the commandments of God, and unsaved people don't, then that is not legalism.

"3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome, 4because everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1 John 5:3-4

"24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him." 1 John 3:24​

Jesus left us with only TWO Commandments—- #1 Believe #2 Love

Nobody this side of the Cross can be talking about promoting keeping the 613 Commandments Of Moses.....Believers are “ DEAD” to that Law, and all that return to that Law and put yourself under it are under its “ CURSE”......

I prefer NOT to live under a Curse —- “ Break ONE Law and you have broken them ALL!” Or “ By The Works Of The Law, NO FLESH will be Justified!”

There is only ONE LAW now to be concerned with, according to Jesus....it’s called “ The Law Of Christ “...... it goes like this—-“ Take on the Burdens Of others”...... And that comes naturally to one that has the Holy Spirit within them....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

One PROVES that they Trust and Believe the Gospel by RESTING in it.

No. One proves that they trust and believe the gospel by RESTING FROM SIN. The person who is not transformed by the gospel and is not being conformed to the image of Christ is not born again. For as much as your liberal, woke gospel claims that the unbelieving, unconverted person is saved and born again as long as they say they are born again, the truth remains that the unchanged person is just that...an unchanged, unconverted, unsaved, not born again person.

"18We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning" 1 John 5:18

"7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil..." 1 John 3:7-8​

You can't make that truth go away. You can only deny it to your own destruction.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your Big Thing is Repenting from Sins and if you die with Unrepentant Sins on your record, you are damned.

...ONLY if those unrepentant sins are the result of UNBELIEF. You seem like a relatively smart guy but this seems to be going right over your head. The only sin that can condemn the "Christian" is the sin committed as the result of going back to unbelief. Since they no longer believe in the blood of Christ they no longer have the blood of Christ applied to them to forgive that sin. The blood of Christ does not cover unbelievers in their sin of unbelief. That's why the word must remain in you in faith, believing, in order for you to remain in the Son, the Father, and the promise of eternal life.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

One needs to make sure that their Sins are Covered when they die—- that is the purpose of Grace....If you Reject that Saving Grace,you have automatically Rejected the Gospel Of Grace.....Unlike Paul, you were “ Ashamed of the Gospel”—— it needed your help.....Jesus needed a “ Co-Savior”

Lol, now you're saying you DO need to have your sins covered when you die and that the sin of unbelief will damn you. Make up your mind, BB!

 

[Karl Peters]

Not believing anymore is falling away. You say that person is still saved - an unbeliever who is saved. What a joke. You mislead fake believers into thinking they are born again and ready for Jesus' return. If that isn't the work of the devil I don't know what is.

No - believing yet deciding not to listen to the Lord and follow Him is falling away!!!!!

In the story of the prodigal son we read an example of a son falling away!!!!!!!!!

And we see real Christians that this happens to. It is not that they are not believers anymore, but rather that they decide following the Lord is not what they want!! So they fall away, go back into the things of this world!!

But what happens? They wind up returning, because after falling away they realize that it is better in the Father's house after all. And they are received back when they come back.

What I don't understand is how anyone can truly know the Lord, wind up in a relationship with Him, then read their Bible like He would tell them to do, and still fail to come across a proper understanding?

Now there are those who pretend obedience to Him, but they never were believers!!! They are false sons!!! They never believed even when it appeared they were a believer. They only looked like a believer because they pretended obedience to Him. They, in their pretense, might even deceive themselves. They might think a person can spend time believing in Jesus Christ and somehow wind up not believing in Jesus Christ, but that is just wrong. If you indeed know the Lord our God Jesus Christ, you know that He is God. That knowledge of Him which is from belief in Him, can't not just disappear!! You can go back to questioning it, because of circumstances. And so our belief can get blown around, but being blown around by the spirits in this world does not mean the believe goes away, anymore than a reed getting blown around in the wind means it just goes away. Jesus explained that nobody can take them out of His hand.

The Lord had me open and run a Christian bookstore for a couple of years. I wound up taking to all sorts of Christians while doing that. What amazed me was the some of the people most devoted to walking with the Lord hated going to church, so they rarely did. Yeah - they did sometimes, because He is regularly trying to get us together. Yet they had been hurt so many times at church that they just preferred walking and talking with Him. They were like Enoch, who walked with the Lord and was not.

So those at church would think they were not believer's anymore. Yet what was perhaps even more amazing were those going to church and rarely hearing from the Lord. Was He even their Lord, since they virtually never heard His voice. Jesus said He lead His sheep out with His voice and they never seemed to hear His voice.

Indeed, I meet once pastor in town who said he had only ever heard the voice of the Lord three times in his life. I usually hear the Lord three times in the morning before I get in the shower. Since faith comes from hearing, how much faith in God did that pastor really have? And I meet another pastor that not only had a church for years and years, but also had his doctorate degree in theology and own buildings that he rented out to smaller churches. He once told me that while he had heard the voice of the Lord in the past he hadn't heard the Lord for over ten years. Any it didn't sound like he had even heard the Lord much in the past.

So what does this verse mean:?

Is 30: 9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;

and what about:

Ps 81:15 “Those who hate the LORD would pretend obedience to Him,
And their time of punishment would be forever.

The parodical son fell away, but he was a son and not a false son!!
And those who hate the Lord still pretend obedience to Him, and their time of punishment would be forever.

So people thinking that just because someone is not seen a church anymore, could be just plain wrong!! Didn't the Lord show you that and explain it to you?

And also people are often wrong thinking that just because someone has some position in your church and is always seen there seemingly doing things for the Lord, that they are actual believers in Jesus Christ and so are doing what He is asking of them. They might not be hearing from Him at all!!!

If you want some wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, try actually spending some time listening to the Lord. He is not into gossip, but it is written that the Holy Spirit testifies, and so He does. But leaning on our own understanding is not going to give us understanding. You have to actually listen to Him. Take a walk with Him and reason with Him, meaning telling Him what you think and then listening to Him reprove you - and He will reprove you. He will explain - but you have to listen.

Samuel 22:45 “Foreigners pretend obedience to me; As soon as they hear, they obey me.

Ps 81:11 “But My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Some things must be discerned Spiritually ....TRUE Believers KNOW the unmistakable validity of OSAS in their hearts....Those That merely pay “ lip- service” to the Fact That Jesus died for ALL of your sins and lack the Faith to REST in that , as ordered in Hebrews 3 and 4 may be lacking a certain Spirit.

Lol, this is funny. Right there in Hebrews 3 it says the person who does not hold firmly does not belong to the house of God:

"6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmlyc to our confidence and the hope of which we boast." Hebrews 3:6

"14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first." Hebrews 3:14​

You don't seem to realize that the original OSAS...the one that was around before your stupid 'woke' OSAS gospel...understood these verses to mean the person who fell away was never saved to begin with. But your goofy new version of OSAS says you are of His house and have come to share in Christ even if you DON'T hold firmly to the very end. That is in complete and utter contradiction to the verses I posted above. Completely and utterly!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No - believing yet deciding not to listen to the Lord and follow Him is falling away!!!!!

Believing yet deciding to not listen to the Lord is UNBELIEF. The person who walks away from the Lord and goes back to their old life of sin is in UNBELIEF. They are not saved. They are not born again. They do not have eternal life. They do not belong to the Son and the Father. They belong to the devil. John said to NOT be deceived about this!

"7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil..." 1 John 3:7-8​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is only ONE LAW now to be concerned with, according to Jesus....it’s called “ The Law Of Christ “...... it goes like this—-“ Take on the Burdens Of others”.

So I should not be concerned about sleeping with my step mother?

"8You must not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; it would dishonor your father." Leviticus 18:8
​

Paul was (1 Corinthians 5:1), so shouldn't we be, too?
Think about how that fits into the law of Christ so you can stop believing this stupid 'keeping the law curses you' theology. The law is a curse to the person who keeps it FOR THE PURPOSE OF EARNING SALVATION, not to the person who upholds it as an expression of the summary of the law: “Love your neighbor as yourself.* Love does no wrong to its neighbor." (Romans 13:9-10, *Leviticus 19:18).