Imagine a World with no Christians!

[Timtofly]

The thief that was on the cross is in Paradise, our Lord says so.

And the Apostles taught that there is a Purgatory.

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

The Apostles taught that there is a Purgatory.

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

The Apostles taught pizza was better from Chicago than from New York City.


2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

 

[James Macbeth]

The Apostles taught pizza was better from Chicago than from New York City.


2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

But can you prove that in Church history?

 

[Timtofly]

But can you prove that in Church history?

Are we still in church history? You can take a poll if so inclined.

 

[James Macbeth]

Are we still in church history? You can take a poll if so inclined.

?

 

[James Macbeth]

Yeah, so? What is your point? That isn't purgatory. It's the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

No, they absolutely did not. If they did then there surely would be something about it in scripture, but there is not.

The thief did not go to Purgatory, he went to the third Heaven.

Second Heaven is Purgatory. That's is were the dead in Christ are, waiting to be resurrected.

And when the trumpet blows, the dead in Christ will rise and go first. Then those who are left, in a blink of an eye will be with them in Heaven.

But not all will be changed, some will have to go through the Apocalypse as their Purgatory, and some will be condemned.

Inorder to interpret these things, you have to take into account everything Christians have been taught.

That includes Purgatory, Sainthood, and that people are in Hell already.

 

[James Macbeth]

Sorry, but purgatory is not an eschatological view. Why would only a few living at the very end be sent to purgatory, and no one else?

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5, to be absent from this life is to be immediate in Paradise. All currently in Paradise have physical bodies. No one is stuck in purgatory. To say only a few get to go to purgatory at the end, is not taught by Christianity, but is an heretical view.

In 2 Cor 5 Saint Paul is talking about Sainthood.

Your confusing Sainthood with Purgatory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The thief did not go to Purgatory, he went to the third Heaven.

Second Heaven is Purgatory. That's is were the dead in Christ are, waiting to be resurrected.

And when the trumpet blows, the dead in Christ will rise and go first. Then those who are left, in a blink of an eye will be with them in Heaven.

But not all will be changed, some will have to go through the Apocalypse as their Purgatory, and some will be condemned.

Inorder to interpret these things, you have to take into account everything Christians have been taught.

That includes Purgatory, Sainthood, and that people are in Hell already.

Please stop this nonsense. Nothing you're saying is taught anywhere in scripture. You have been duped by false teaching.

 

[James Macbeth]

Please stop this nonsense. Nothing you're saying is taught anywhere in scripture. You have been duped by false teaching.

Saint Luke proves your words wrong...

Luke 12:42
Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.
Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

What is your explanation for the beating that the last two servants received?

In this parable there are a total of 4 servants.

One goes to Heaven.

The second to Hell.

But the third and fourth go to Purgatory, that is the beating.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Saint Luke proves your words wrong...

Luke 12:42
Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.
Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

What is your explanation for the beating that the last two servants received?

In this parable there are a total of 4 servants.

One goes to Heaven.

The second to Hell.

But the third and fourth go to Purgatory, that is the beating.

I'm sorry, where does that mention Purgatory? It's not there. It's a figment of your imagination. All that parable shows is that there are different levels of punishment in hell. There is nothing anywhere in scripture to support the idea of Purgatory. Not even close.

 

[James Macbeth]

I'm sorry, where does that mention Purgatory? It's not there. It's a figment of your imagination. All that parable shows is that there are different levels of punishment in hell. There is nothing anywhere in scripture to support the idea of Purgatory. Not even close.

Different levels of punishment in hell?

Can you please expand on this?

Especially when the second servant is cut in two and sent with the unbelievers.

How can you compare that with the beatings?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Different levels of punishment in hell?

Can you please expand on this?

What is hard to understand about it? It refers to different levels of punishment (severe beatings and lesser beatings). What that will look like in reality isn't something that is described in scripture. It's only described in parables. But, it talks about punishment. Where are people punished, in heaven or hell? Obviously, hell. Scripture never once mentions this imaginary place you call Purgatory.

Especially when the second servant is cut in two and sent with the unbelievers.

How can you compare that with the beatings?

In each case it's punishment and only unbelievers will be punished. Why is this so hard for you to understand this simple concept?

 

[James Macbeth]

What is hard to understand about it? It refers to different levels of punishment (severe beatings and lesser beatings). What that will look like in reality isn't something that is described in scripture. It's only described in parables. But, it talks about punishment. Where are people punished, in heaven or hell? Obviously, hell. Scripture never once mentions this imaginary place you call Purgatory.

In each case it's punishment and only unbelievers will be punished. Why is this so hard for you to understand this simple concept?

But many Church Fathers from the East & the West have taught of such a place.

And the Jews teach of one as well.

Maybe you should sleep on this.

No pun intended.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But many Church Fathers from the East & the West have taught of such a place.

So? There have been false teachers around from the beginning. It's not referenced anywhere in scripture. So, where does it come from? People's imaginations.

And the Jews teach of one as well.

That means nothing.

Maybe you should sleep on this.

No pun intended.

Just show me where scripture references Purgatory and we can be done with this. What you have referenced so far makes no mention of Purgatory.

 

[James Macbeth]

So? There have been false teachers around from the beginning. It's not referenced anywhere in scripture. So, where does it come from? People's imaginations.

That means nothing.

Just show me where scripture references Purgatory and we can be done with this. What you have referenced so far makes no mention of Purgatory.

Do you believe in the Trinity?
Because that word is not in the holy Scriptures, but Christians have always believed in it and have taught it, from one generation to another.

 

[Timtofly]

?

Church history has been ongoing for 1992 years. Do you think it stopped sometime in the last 100 years?

 

[Timtofly]

In 2 Cor 5 Saint Paul is talking about Sainthood.

Your confusing Sainthood with Purgatory.

No, you are confusing reality with some man's imagination working over time around 1200AD.

Saint Luke proves your words wrong...

Luke 12:42
Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.
Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

What is your explanation for the beating that the last two servants received?

In this parable there are a total of 4 servants.

One goes to Heaven.

The second to Hell.

But the third and fourth go to Purgatory, that is the beating.

I would say that whoever came up with the idea of purgatory is a prime example of a wicked servant mentally beating another servant into subjection, while they themselves lived a duplicitous life getting drunk and living off the back of those whom they subjected to such nonsensical teachings, enslaving them to do their bidding to avoid such noproveable after life punishments.

The Cross was sufficient, not the works of man. Explain the Cross if humans still had to bear the burden of their own sins.

 

[James Macbeth]

No, you are confusing reality with some man's imagination working over time around 1200AD.




I would say that whoever came up with the idea of purgatory is a prime example of a wicked servant mentally beating another servant into subjection, while they themselves lived a duplicitous life getting drunk and living off the back of those whom they subjected to such nonsensical teachings, enslaving them to do their bidding to avoid such noproveable after life punishments.

The Cross was sufficient, not the works of man. Explain the Cross if humans still had to bear the burden of their own sins.

Then how do you explain Psalms 38:1

Rebuke me not, O Lord, in thy indignation; nor chastise me in thy hot displeasure.

And Psalms 6:1 has the same.

S. Augustine & S. Gregory explain this text of the fire of Hell, and of Purgatory, see 1 Corinthians 3:15.

If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Augustine, expounding Psalm 38:1 gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God's justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.

Many of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven.

 

[James Macbeth]

Church history has been ongoing for 1992 years. Do you think it stopped sometime in the last 100 years?

Why would you say that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you believe in the Trinity?
Because that word is not in the holy Scriptures, but Christians have always believed in it and have taught it, from one generation to another.

I'm not just saying the word Purgatory isn't in scripture, I'm saying the concept of Purgatory isn't taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

Then how do you explain Psalms 38:1

Rebuke me not, O Lord, in thy indignation; nor chastise me in thy hot displeasure.

And Psalms 6:1 has the same.

S. Augustine & S. Gregory explain this text of the fire of Hell, and of Purgatory, see 1 Corinthians 3:15.

If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Augustine, expounding Psalm 38:1 gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God's justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.

Many of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven.

Well how big of a sin do you need to commit before asking God to forgive you?