Imagine a World with no Christians!

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jerome does not contradict 1 Thes. 4:17, but wrote what Saint Paul wrote, which are more details about that Day in 1 Cor 15:51. We are already told in 4:17 that some will remain.

But we are not told in 1 Thes 4:17 about being changed on that day. So in 1 Cor 15:51, Saint Paul expands what he already said in 1Thes 4:17.

The Greek variant omits extra details: all will rise again, but not all will be changed. Instead it repeats what 1 Thes 4:17 has already stated.

Why that is I don't know. My educated guess is that the Letters to the Corinthians was first written in Latin, thus 10,000 hand written Manuscripts in Latin with no Variants, but in the Greek Manuscripts 4 variants exist.

A contradiction is the opposite, saying no one remained, and no one was changed.

I don't understand what you were trying to say here. Do you believe that Jesus will return at the last trumpet? Do you believe that 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 are speaking of the same event? If so, then why can't you discern that we will not all die, but we will all be changed on that day?

 

[James Macbeth]

I don't understand what you were trying to say here. Do you believe that Jesus will return at the last trumpet? Do you believe that 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 are speaking of the same event? If so, then why can't you discern that we will not all die, but we will all be changed on that day?

Because Christians in mortal Sin do not have the sacrificing Grace for the Beatific vision. Thus they are sent to Purgatory, thus not all will be changed at the blink of an eye. But the Christians who do the will of our FATHER will be changed at the blink of an eye, 1st those that died in Christ, then them that remain, will be caught up with the Saints (meaning there are some already in Heaven with glorified bodies, as there are those burning in Hell)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because Christians in mortal Sin do not have the sacrificing Grace for the Beatific vision.

Say what now?

Thus they are sent to Purgatory, thus not all will be changed at the blink of an eye.

There is no such thing as Purgatory. Where are you getting this from?

But the Christians who do the will of our FATHER will be changed at the blink of an eye, 1st those that died in Christ, then them that remain, will be caught up with the Saints (meaning there are some already in Heaven with glorified bodies, as there are those burning in Hell)

You're saying that there will be some already in heaven with glorified bodies before the last trumpet? Where is that taught in scripture?

 

[Enoch111]

There is no such thing as Purgatory. Where are you getting this from?

Looks like James Macbeth is a Catholic, and the Catholic church believes and teaches that there is a Purgatory (contrary to Scripture, the Gospel, and words of Christ). He also believes a Catholic bible is better than any other bible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Looks like James Macbeth is a Catholic, and the Catholic church believes and teaches that there is a Purgatory (contrary to Scripture, the Gospel, and words of Christ). He also believes a Catholic bible is better than any other bible.

Yeah, I figured that was probably the case, but I'd like to know where he personally sees such a thing taught in scripture. Or is it just something the Catholic Church teaches and he goes along with it?

 

[Enoch111]

Or is it just something the Catholic Church teaches and he goes along with it?

Catholics either go along with what their church teaches, or leave. Other than "good Catholics" Pelosi and Biden, who believe that abortion is just fine, and should be promoted at all costs. But now her archbishop and other bishops have told her that she is in deep trouble.

 

[James Macbeth]

Say what now?

There is no such thing as Purgatory. Where are you getting this from?

You're saying that there will be some already in heaven with glorified bodies before the last trumpet? Where is that taught in scripture?

Do not forget the thief on the cross.
Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Our Lord says their are Saints already in Heaven.

Saint Paul says the same.
1 Thes 4:17
1Then we which are alive & remain shall be caught up, together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ are in Purgatory, working off the debt they owe our Lord, because they died in a state of mortal Sin. So Christ in his infinite mercy gives them the opportunity to rise where they were failing.

That's why the Latin read: all shall rise again, but not all will be changed.

And some will rise to condemnation.
Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

At the Rapture, if you are a good Christian but are in mortal Sin, you will have to go through the Apocalypse! That will be your Purgatory.

The Beatific vision:

 

[James Macbeth]

Looks like James Macbeth is a Catholic, and the Catholic church believes and teaches that there is a Purgatory (contrary to Scripture, the Gospel, and words of Christ). He also believes a Catholic bible is better than any other bible.

The King James Bible teaches Purgatory.
Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Purge = Purgatory.

It was taught by the Apostles.

 

[Enoch111]

Purge = Purgatory.

No. Purge = Cleansing through divine judgments falling on earth. See Revelation 6-18. Unquenchable fire in this context would be Hell Fire for those who are thus judged. For example literal fire fell on Sodom and Gomorrah in divine judgment, but they were also condemned to eternal Hell.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

Purgatory according to Catholic teaching is TEMPORARY. Hell is "eternal fire".

 

[James Macbeth]

No. Purge = Cleansing through divine judgments falling on earth. See Revelation 6-18. Unquenchable fire in this context would be Hell Fire for those who are thus judged. For example literal fire fell on Sodom and Gomorrah in divine judgment, but they were also condemned to eternal Hell.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

Purgatory according to Catholic teaching is TEMPORARY. Hell is "eternal fire".

Yes that is good for Hell fire, but what is the threshing floor?

Why is Jesus throughly purging his floor?

Then after gathering his wheat.

And after that are the inedible stocks burnt.

 

[Taken]

I have been studying the New Testament for some years now, as I know most of you have too.

And I have gone back & forth with believing in the Rapture.

Your thoughts?

The RAPTURE is specifically applicable to the CONVERTED, (not people who are merely wearing the Title “Christian” ) There are plenty of people claiming they are followers of Christianity, BUT who have not as yet become Converted.

The Converted have already Freely given their Bodily Life (crucified Dead), thus fulfilled their appointment to DIE ONCE.
A bodily death IS required BEFORE an individual RECEIVES their Forever forgiveness, for HAVING NOT Believed; RECEIVES salvation of their soul; RECEIVES quickening of their spirit...
* This being the awesome offering Jesus was sent to Offer mankind, 2,000 years ago to this day.
* Not a newsflash, FEW have accepted Gods Offering, (according to His ORDER and WAY).

The ONLY ‘protected’ from bodily death, during Gods Tribulation sent down from Heaven, are expressly the SEALED 144,000, who are ALL Tribesmen of ISRAEL. Everyone else, believers, unbelievers will ALL be bodily killed.
Some will die, Because of their faithful belief, others because of their unbelief.

The Converted have already fulfilled the “WILL of the Father”, and shall not suffer Gods Anger, Gods Wrath, Gods Tribulation.
Gods Tribulation IS God “SEPARATING” the “Divided”, which God Himself established “Division”, Jesus reiterated “Division” among men, and BEFORE Gods foretold “RENEWING”, a Separation of the Divided must commence.
Gods Division, paramount in Gen 1:
Gods Division, “His people Israel” 1 Sam 9:16
Jesus’ Division, Luke 12:51 - John 7:43
Son of man, Separating, is Reaping Rev 14:15-16

The RAPTURE of the Converted, are parallel to the SAVED during the FIRST Great Tribulation OF God, sent down from Heaven.
Noah, (and 7 others man-KIND) were SAVED from the Earth’s destruction, BY BEING LIFTED UP OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH TO THE CLOUDS.
* Nothing new under the Sun. What was shall be again.
LAST Great Tribulation OF God, sent down from Heaven.
The Converted ARE SAVED and shall BE LIFTED UP OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH TO THE CLOUDS.

Once the earth was CLEANSED with water, Noah was returned to the Earth.
Once the earth is PURIFIED with fire, the Saved will return to the Earth.

Again, the RAPTURE is ONLY applicable to the CONVERTED:
BEFORE the DOOR to the CHURCH IS CLOSED.
BEFORE the anger, wrath, and Tribulation send Down from Heaven UPON the whole of the Earth and it’s “unrighteousness” (Rom 1:18)

Remember ... the 8 saved in Noah’s DAY (and animals) were sent into the ark, God SHUT the DOOR, 7 days (Gen 7:4) BEFORE the Rain began to fall, and BEFORE the underground oceans rose up over the land. (Gen 7:11)

The Last Great Tribulation of God, is 7 Years.
The already SAVED, shall be Christ’s Church gathered up off the face of the Earth. The Church no longer ON the face of the EARTH.

AND those becoming “in Faith” during the Tribulation?
They become IN belief IN God. They become IN belief IN Jesus.
They shall bodily die, called “IN” Christ? No. That door closed.
*** They shall bodily die, called “IN” Jesus. (1 Thes 4:14)
Their soul saved, their spirit quickened, their soul and spirit rises to Heaven. Their body’s killed, Their body’s remain on Earth.......
*** UNTIL God comes for their body’s. (Rev 20:5)
* AFTER 1,000 year reign, Satan loosed, world Nations established for 1,000 years (outside of the Lords Kingdom).
Ie, the Timing of; The KING of kings and LORD of lords...ie
World Nations AGAIN, influenced by Satan, Mortal Nations, COME AGAINST the Lords Kingdom, Are DEFEATED.
Spiritual WAR fair also, Holy and Demonic angels. Demonic angels DEFEATED.
* THEN is the First Resurrection of the DEAD BODIES IN FAITH...
From OT, to those IN Jesus, God SHALL RAISE UP their bodies IN GLORY.

Christ SAVES His People, His Church, “IN” Christ.
Gods SAVES His People, ISRAEL, and ANY Gentile, “IN” Jesus.

 

[Taken]

I believe it will be after Aug. 12th, the exact day, hour, or year, obviously I do not know.

Your thoughts?

The TiMING of the END DAYS, is of no date of mens mathematical calculations.

The END DAYS, has multiple things occurring, that deal with ALL of Gods Creations...heavens, earth, planets, stars, plants, Angels, Animal-Kind, Man-Kind....ALL things Corrupt. ALL things Saved and becoming Saved.

Jewish calendars are LUNAR with consideration of the SOLAR, as the God created a time period of one day, beginning with darkness, ending with Lightness. (Appropriate, as the world was dark, getting darker as in corruption, shall end in Light!)

Islam calendars are LUNAR.
World “primarily coordinated business” calendars, widely acceptable in the Western Hemisphere, is SOLAR.

The ASSURANCE God offered, TO Completely BE assured, ANY man desiring to BE WITH the Lord God Almighty, FOREVER, lands squarely ON Becoming MADE, “By the POWER of God”; “Converted IN Christ”.

Everyone else, is on the roulette wheel, (so to speak), willing to take the RISK, they are strong enough to overcome the EVILS and WICKEDNESS of the World, (to the day they physically DIE), by their own WILLPOWER, their HOPE.
Scripture is FULL of “WARNINGS”...
Oops IF you fall.
Yeah IF you can endure.

AND as being observed in this DAY...EVIL (demonic spirits) is running full speed....and WICKEDNESS (earthly power sitting men) are on steroids 24-7 creating CRISIS’ after CRISIS’, blasting FEAR, and PROMOTING “they are” the SAVIOR, the CURE, the SAFETY net.
CAUTION: WARNING:
“THEY are the Disease, the Tangled WEB of DECEIT”!
Day by Day, Week by Week, Year by Year....throwing pseudo free money and free poisons...has tickled the ears of the world at large...
While PLUNGING the whole world into oppression, depression, worry, wars, food, goods, services shortages.
How y’all liking the Established BY ATHEISTS “great-reset” so far?

 

[Timtofly]

Please provide quote. I never said that.

1 Cor 15:51 says not all shall be changed, meaning not all will be given the Beatific vision, thus changing them.
But all will be resurrect to be judged.

That why the next verse says:
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed.

The Rapture is so quick that when you blink your eyes, behold! you are in Heaven with a new incorruptible body and with the Saints.

Many people believe that you will go around floating like Marry Poppins...
Is that what you think?

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

That is the rapture verse. Those are the alive and remain. They all will be changed.

Your verse clearly says all those alive will be raptured, but not all changed.

"We" is the church. The majority of the church have gone on to Paradise (slept) . Those "we" (the church) alive at the Second Coming will all be changed. In fact even those in Paradise at the same time as those on earth will be glorified. But those in Paradise already have a physical body. Those on earth leave Adam's flesh for their permanent incorruptible physical body. All the living church on earth will be changed. None of the church left behind. The sheep and goats are not of the church. They are the house of Jacob alive today. Not all dead people from all time. No one is resurrected in Matthew 25. They are humans currently alive today, called out of all Nations and escorted by angels to Jerusalem. That is what the angels are for, at the Second Coming.

You do think the church goats are not changed. You think some church members are goats. That is not the case. Israel is who is being separated as sheep and goats. The Second Coming is when Jesus as Prince brings all of Israel out of the nations, not out of the grave. Those in Matthew 25 are not dead people from all time. They are currently alive today, as the Second Coming could happen at any moment.

 

[James Macbeth]

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

That is the rapture verse. Those are the alive and remain. They all will be changed.

Your verse clearly says all those alive will be raptured, but not all changed.

"We" is the church. The majority of the church have gone on to Paradise (slept) . Those "we" (the church) alive at the Second Coming will all be changed. In fact even those in Paradise at the same time as those on earth will be glorified. But those in Paradise already have a physical body. Those on earth leave Adam's flesh for their permanent incorruptible physical body. All the living church on earth will be changed. None of the church left behind. The sheep and goats are not of the church. They are the house of Jacob alive today. Not all dead people from all time. No one is resurrected in Matthew 25. They are humans currently alive today, called out of all Nations and escorted by angels to Jerusalem. That is what the angels are for, at the Second Coming.

You do think the church goats are not changed. You think some church members are goats. That is not the case. Israel is who is being separated as sheep and goats. The Second Coming is when Jesus as Prince brings all of Israel out of the nations, not out of the grave. Those in Matthew 25 are not dead people from all time. They are currently alive today, as the Second Coming could happen at any moment.

Well that is your interpretation.

1 Cor 15:51 is a resurrection verse.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

See even Daniel says not all will change on that day.

Some will be condemned.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do not forget the thief on the cross.
Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Our Lord says their are Saints already in Heaven.

Their souls are there while they await the redemption of their bodies. Paradise is not purgatory.

The dead in Christ are in Purgatory, working off the debt they owe our Lord, because they died in a state of mortal Sin. So Christ in his infinite mercy gives them the opportunity to rise where they were failing.

That's complete nonsense and not taught anywhere in scripture. Once you die your fate is sealed. This second chance doctrine you believe in is heretical.

 

[Timtofly]

Well that is your interpretation.

1 Cor 15:51 is a resurrection verse.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

See even Daniel says not all will change on that day.

Some will be condemned.

Sorry, but purgatory is not an eschatological view. Why would only a few living at the very end be sent to purgatory, and no one else?

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5, to be absent from this life is to be immediate in Paradise. All currently in Paradise have physical bodies. No one is stuck in purgatory. To say only a few get to go to purgatory at the end, is not taught by Christianity, but is an heretical view.

 

[Davy]

So IMO the Rapture will be when all Christians die (at once), and are caught up with the Saints and our Lord Jesus.

Kinda like when God killed all the first born in Egypt.

Now imagine a World with no Light and no Salt. A world perfect for the Anti-christ and his false Prophet.

With no Christians the USA will collapse back into warring tribes, like before the Pilgrims arrived here. Then the Anti-christ will appear in Israel with the false Prophet, and rebuild the 3rd Temple. The Muslims will go irate, and attack, and lose. Israel will grow to become the next, final super power of the world. Their country will grow larger than the USA. Millions of immigrants will flock there to escape their hell. The Anti-christ will be in full control with no Christians warning people. Then 12,000 Jews from each tribe will rediscover the Gospel and build their own city. The Mass will recommence in opposition to the sacrifices going on at the 3rd Temple. Then the Anti-christ will amass a 200 million man army and March on this City. And besiege it like in Lord of the Rings, return of the King. Then our Lord with all the Saints and armies of heaven will appear and defend the city.

This is not a prophesy, but my thoughts as of late.

Your thoughts?

WARNING BRETHREN:
DO NOT LISTEN TO FOLKS LIKE THE ABOVE. There is NO EXCUSE for anyone that believes on Jesus Christ to think like that, GOING DIRECTLY AGAINST BIBLE SCRIPTURE about Christians that REMAIN on earth all the way up to Christ's future return, as written!

And NO, Christians ARE NEVER LIKE THE PAGAN FIRSTBORN IN EGYPT WHICH GOD SLEW by the plagues in Moses' day. It is the PAGANS and UNBELIEVING that will be slayed on the day of Christ's future return.

Furthermore, a pre-tribulation rapture is NOT written anywhere in God's Word. So it's silly to even do such speculations.

And I consider speculations about how WE CHRISTIANS are going to be killed at the end as an INSULT!

We are NOT all going to be killed during the tribulation, even as Jesus showed in His Word, otherwise there wouldn't even be any of His Church left on earth when He comes, which would scrap 1 Thessalonians 4!

 

[James Macbeth]

Their souls are there while they await the redemption of their bodies. Paradise is not purgatory.

That's complete nonsense and not taught anywhere in scripture. Once you die your fate is sealed. This second chance doctrine you believe in is heretical.

The thief that was on the cross is in Paradise, our Lord says so.

And the Apostles taught that there is a Purgatory.

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The thief that was on the cross is in Paradise, our Lord says so.

Yeah, so? What is your point? That isn't purgatory. It's the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

And the Apostles taught that there is a Purgatory.

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

No, they absolutely did not. If they did then there surely would be something about it in scripture, but there is not.

 

[James Macbeth]

Sorry, but purgatory is not an eschatological view. Why would only a few living at the very end be sent to purgatory, and no one else?

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5, to be absent from this life is to be immediate in Paradise. All currently in Paradise have physical bodies. No one is stuck in purgatory. To say only a few get to go to purgatory at the end, is not taught by Christianity, but is an heretical view.

The Apostles taught that there is a Purgatory.

2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.