What if you lose your faith?

[Ferris Bueller]

Its the end times apostasy from the Grace of God, into Legalism.
You are a prime example.

Explain how this is legalism:

"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:24

"14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess." Hebrews 4:14

"23Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:23
​

How is doing what the Bible tells us to do legalism?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You can't "fall away" from real Faith, unless you were born again first.

Not believing anymore is falling away. You say that person is still saved - an unbeliever who is saved. What a joke. You mislead fake believers into thinking they are born again and ready for Jesus' return. If that isn't the work of the devil I don't know what is.

Now, there is an apostasy, that is not the same as a faith crisis in a born again person.

Doubt is one thing. Falling away into unbelief is quite another. You say the believer who falls into unbelief is saved. You have unbelievers in the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

 

[Behold]

Explain how this is legalism:

"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. ​

I have explained this to you, in at least 10 posts.
And each time i show you a different way to SEE IT.


So, look at the verse.

It says "remain in you..."

Now, words produce faith, as faith comes by hearing....
And this seed of the word, is connected to the "washing of regeneration".
So, what remains in you, would not do you any good, if its not CHRIST.
So, reading and hearing the Gospel.....if not mixed with Faith, produces nothing, even if you remember it till you die.

So, the "remain in you", is not holding on to faith..but its the regeneration, that is the proof that it is in you, who is Christ.
Its Christ that is in you, is the idea.
Not gritting your teeth trying to make sure you try to keep believing.

God takes your faith, the first time you give it to Him, and Christ the WORD, comes to live in you....and remains.
There is your, "remains in you".........its Christ in you., as this is the WORD that remains in you.​

 

[Behold]

Not believing anymore is falling away. You say that person is still saved -.

Yes.
Of course.
Once a Son of God, always a Son of God, as God is faithful to make sure you are always a son of God.

Philippians 1:6

 

[Behold]

How is doing what the Bible tells us to do legalism? ​

The "bible" the NT says to give God your faith, and God will give you Salvation.
The bible does not say that you have to keep trying to give it to Him, so that you can try to keep yourself saved.
You teach that.......not the NT.​

 

[Behold]

Doubt is one thing. Falling away into unbelief is quite another.

You are describing a backslider.
This is what James describes as having "dead faith".
Not dead Salvation., as Salvation is of God, and once you have Eternal life......Jesus says....>"You shall never perish".
But you can "shipwreck" faith........you just can't end being born again.

 

[Taken]

What if you lose your faith?

Uh oh...

 

[Taken]

Yes.
Of course.
Once a Son of God, always a Son of God, as God is faithful to make sure you are always a son of God.

Philippians 1:6

Once a man is Converted IN Christ he CAN NOT FALL AWAY.

Believing men, CAN fall away.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, the "remain in you", is not holding on to faith..but its the regeneration, that is the proof that it is in you, who is Christ.

"Remain in you" is holding onto the word in faith. The Bible says to "let" the word remain in you, but you have yet to explain that clear responsibility of "let" that the believer has. And it says "if" you do that you will remain in the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life. Your horrible theology removed the "let" and the "if" from the passage:

"23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.26I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you." 1 John 2:23-26
​

You are deceived by the very thing John says not to be deceived about! Wherever the word does not remain in a person you are dealing with an unsaved UNBELIEVER, not a saved believer as you insist. John literally tells us that's why he's writing this to us.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not believing anymore is falling away. You say that person is still saved - an unbeliever who is saved.

Yes.
Of course.
Once a Son of God, always a Son of God, as God is faithful to make sure you are always a son of God.

Philippians 1:6

Stop deceiving people into thinking they're saved when they really aren't. Unbelievers are NOT saved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

as Salvation is of God, and once you have Eternal life......Jesus says....>"You shall never perish".

He says the BELIEVING person has eternal life and will never perish. You changed it to the UNBELIEVING person has eternal life and will never perish.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But you can "shipwreck" faith........you just can't end being born again.

To shipwreck your faith is to no longer let the word you first heard remain in you. It's gone. But the Bible says you remain in the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life IF you LET the word of God remain in you. It's a condition. You can't remain in the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life if you do not satisfy the condition that the Bible says you must satisfy to have them remain in you. You say John is wrong and that you will remain in them even if you don't let the word remain in you.

You'd be better off going back to the original OSAS teaching that said the person who falls away was never saved to begin with. At least you'd be defending continued believing and wouldn't be deceiving fallen, unbelieving people into thinking they're saved/born again.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The "bible" the NT says to give God your faith, and God will give you Salvation.
The bible does not say that you have to keep trying to give it to Him, so that you can try to keep yourself saved.
You teach that.......not the NT.​

You don't give God your faith. You receive what he's giving you, by faith. And you are to continue to receive it by faith. That is the condition the Bible says you must fulfill in order to have and to remain in the Son the Father and the promise of eternal life. You say, no, that's not true.

 

[Karl Peters]

Fundamental to being born again is to surrender ones will to Him.

The reality is that none of us fully surrender our will to Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus did. Jesus explained that He did and said only what the Father told Him!!! That is why He is the Word of God - because His will is so fully surrender to the Father that He won't even say anything to you except that He was given it to say to you by the Father. And the Holy Spirit is similar! Of the Holy Spirit it is written: “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

So God is One, because even every word you hear from God comes from the Father!

Yet people are not fully surrender to God - so your statement lacks real understanding!! It is just not how things work. It is some Theological non-sense that does not reflect reality.

In reality people who know the Lord sometimes do what He tells them and sometimes they don't - but mostly they don't. And indeed if they really knew Him that would be quickly apparent to them!!

Now the real believer is a person who believes in Jesus Christ, and His name is called the Word of God because we hear His voice - just like it is explained that His sheep hear His voice! But that obviously does not mean all the time. Frankly very few Christian actually spend much time at all actually listening to Him, and none of them are surrendered to the will of God like the Son or the Holy Spirit. Perhaps someone can be like the angels in heaven, which are much better at keeping to what they are told. You've had them minister to you, right? You know that about them, right?

Yet even the least of the heavenly host is far better at keeping to what the Lord tells them than you and I are!! So what bothers me is that
"Chrisitan" tell me they are "surrendered" to the Lord and they don't even show they have a clue about how they are not!! Maybe they have some desire to be, but that desire doesn't produce much of what could be call "surrender". The desire might show up in saying they are surrendered to God, but actual talking to Him reveals how far we are from actually being surrendered to Him.

Now while talking to me this morning; He pointed out the following verse to me this morning and specifically wanted it posted, which caused me to come to the forum and this post:

Ps 72:8 May he also rule from sea to sea and from river to the ends of the earth.

Now He talked to me about the verse. Note that it shows a desire, but also a fact that we know that He does not yet rule from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth. Christians reflect that desire, but also should reflect and understanding the He does not yet have the rule we want Him to have. So we should pray the Lord's prayer, which I had done just prior to this conversation with Him, that His will be done on earth as in heaven. Yet it is our prayer because it is our desire, not our reality!!! So if a "Christian" has been talking with Him and being taught of God, how is it they do not understand this and instead say a Christian is 'surrendered' to God when we know we fall short of that by far?? Are they indeed listening to and being taught of God? Maybe they just are not surrendered like they should be, and don't realize it? Maybe they are not paying enough attention to Him?

So many "Christians" come to this forum proclaiming how devoted they are to Him - yet I listen to Him every day and discover how lacking in devotion in Him I really am!

So to me; a real Christian is someone who believes in Him. That belief that the Lord is there results in seeking what He has to say to them at least sometimes. That hearing from Him winds up revealing how far away we are from being Him, and so how much we desprately need Him. Yet that only gets us to turn back to Him sometimes, because that human or sinful nature of ours leads us to leaning on our own understanding most all the time. Yet lucky for us, where sin abounds so does His mercy and grace abound all the more. So Paul expressed how "surrendered" a Christian really is in the following verse.

Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

That is how "surrendered to God Paul was. Enough that Paul realized that he was doing the very thing he hated! Which is to say Paul was surrendered enough to the Lord that he knew the sad state he was in. That meant He knew how badly he needed Jesus Christ - and the mercy and grace given to him because he was not surrendered to the Lord like he wanted to be.

Rom 7: 24,25 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

So when we talk about being surrendered to the Lord we are talking about our desire not a reality!!!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

want to be counted with those going to heaven....be good and do good....to the best of your ability.




A False and Perverted “ gospel” straight from Hell.....

“ There are NONE that are “ Good” —- No,NOT ONE !”

If you want to be “ counted with those going to Heaven” you must do as the Bible says—- you have to come to an “End Of Yourself” , realizing that there is No Good in you and you need a A Savior That can provide the Grace to cover your Sins ....that Grace is God’s Elixir for Sin....

One obtains that “ Grace” by simply Believing the Gospel Found In 1Cor15:1-4.....If you truly “ Believe” it, you will prove it by RESTING in it....If it ever “ hits” you that Jesus actually “ Died for your sins” you will be at peace and assured of your Salvation.....If it is True That Jesus Died for your sins, what sins can you ever be condemned for ? If you respond , “NONE” , go to the head of the class....

God will Chastise the Believer Of The Gospel for his sins, yet that Believer can “ NEVER come under Condemnation” for them—- That is a Promise Of Jesus....Believing the Promises Of God/Jesus is the very definition of Saving Faith.....many here Lack it.....

The quest to “ be good” is a Wise one....God will reward you for it, and that Wise Endeavor will come naturally to Gospel Believers once they are saved by Resting in that Gospel and getting the Holy Spirit in you....

“Being Good” beats the heck out of “ Being Bad”, But you will never be Good “ Enough” to Merit Heaven....You can only Merit Heaven by obtaining the IMPUTED “ goodness”( “ Good” as in PERFECT! ) that you get by Trusting in Paul’s Gospel Of Pure Grace, reveals to him by Jesus personally.....

Concentrate on “ being as good as you can be” AFTER you are Saved for Earthly Blessings and Heavenly Rewards because doing that in ORDER to be Saved is a Fool’s Errand....It’s “ ANOTHER GOSPEL” and if you teach it , according to Gal1:8 you are “ Accursed” —- a polite way to say that you are Damned ....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The Way as it was called is not a religion of immorality.



“ The Way” is a “ Religion” for only those with God- Given Contrite Hearts.....Those that possess these types of REPENTANT Hearts KNOW that they are immoral and will always “ BE” immoral as long as they are in a flesh body ....They realize that their only hope is the Grace Of God that is obtained by putting their Total Faith in NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD of Jesus for their Salvation....

Christianity is not a religion of immorality —that is true —- But is DEFINITELY a Religion for IMMORAL Sinners , because that label applies to every man on the planet.... Hell will be replete with people who tried to be Moral.....they will discover when it is too late that their “ morality” was “ Filthy Rags” before God.....

The most Moral people that have ever lived *STILL* fall short of God’s Standard for obtaining Eternal Life—— God’s Standard for obtaining that is PERFECTION ....24/7 ......The Deluded are either unaware of that Standard or Foolishly think they can “ Keep” that Standard by “Trying hard to be Moral and Good”.....

The Wise man KNOWS that he can’t reach God's Standard Of Perfection and chooses to go with the “ Loop- Hole” That God provided for those that know that they NEED it .....it’s something a Repentant man can actually “ DO”....... simply Believe the “ Way Out” ....Simply BELIEVE 1 Cor15:1-4 and get God’s Perfection * IMPUTED* to you ! It’s your ONLY hope.....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Once saved always saved is not only heretical, but it leads people to hell, because it makes them believe they can get away with anything. It just does not make any sense.



It makes just as much sense as your Confused, Erroneous Doctrine...I could abandon my OSAS beliefs, go out and slaughter 100 innocent people and just turn to “ your” Doctrine and make sure that I REPENT of my wrong doing before I kick the bucket and i’m “ Good to Go!” .....I am left to conclude that “ Your” Crowd can “ Sin and get Away with it”......

 

[Carl Emerson]

The reality is that none of us fully surrender our will to Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus did. Jesus explained that He did and said only what the Father told Him!!! That is why He is the Word of God - because His will is so fully surrender to the Father that He won't even say anything to you except that He was given it to say to you by the Father. And the Holy Spirit is similar! Of the Holy Spirit it is written: “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

So God is One, because even every word you hear from God comes from the Father!

Yet people are not fully surrender to God - so your statement lacks real understanding!! It is just not how things work. It is some Theological non-sense that does not reflect reality.

In reality people who know the Lord sometimes do what He tells them and sometimes they don't - but mostly they don't. And indeed if they really knew Him that would be quickly apparent to them!!

Now the real believer is a person who believes in Jesus Christ, and His name is called the Word of God because we hear His voice - just like it is explained that His sheep hear His voice! But that obviously does not mean all the time. Frankly very few Christian actually spend much time at all actually listening to Him, and none of them are surrendered to the will of God like the Son or the Holy Spirit. Perhaps someone can be like the angels in heaven, which are much better at keeping to what they are told. You've had them minister to you, right? You know that about them, right?

Yet even the least of the heavenly host is far better at keeping to what the Lord tells them than you and I are!! So what bothers me is that
"Chrisitan" tell me they are "surrendered" to the Lord and they don't even show they have a clue about how they are not!! Maybe they have some desire to be, but that desire doesn't produce much of what could be call "surrender". The desire might show up in saying they are surrendered to God, but actual talking to Him reveals how far we are from actually being surrendered to Him.

Now while talking to me this morning; He pointed out the following verse to me this morning and specifically wanted it posted, which caused me to come to the forum and this post:

Ps 72:8 May he also rule from sea to sea and from river to the ends of the earth.

Now He talked to me about the verse. Note that it shows a desire, but also a fact that we know that He does not yet rule from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth. Christians reflect that desire, but also should reflect and understanding the He does not yet have the rule we want Him to have. So we should pray the Lord's prayer, which I had done just prior to this conversation with Him, that His will be done on earth as in heaven. Yet it is our prayer because it is our desire, not our reality!!! So if a "Christian" has been talking with Him and being taught of God, how is it they do not understand this and instead say a Christian is 'surrendered' to God when we know we fall short of that by far?? Are they indeed listening to and being taught of God? Maybe they just are not surrendered like they should be, and don't realize it? Maybe they are not paying enough attention to Him?

So many "Christians" come to this forum proclaiming how devoted they are to Him - yet I listen to Him every day and discover how lacking in devotion in Him I really am!

So to me; a real Christian is someone who believes in Him. That belief that the Lord is there results in seeking what He has to say to them at least sometimes. That hearing from Him winds up revealing how far away we are from being Him, and so how much we desprately need Him. Yet that only gets us to turn back to Him sometimes, because that human or sinful nature of ours leads us to leaning on our own understanding most all the time. Yet lucky for us, where sin abounds so does His mercy and grace abound all the more. So Paul expressed how "surrendered" a Christian really is in the following verse.

Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

That is how "surrendered to God Paul was. Enough that Paul realized that he was doing the very thing he hated! Which is to say Paul was surrendered enough to the Lord that he knew the sad state he was in. That meant He knew how badly he needed Jesus Christ - and the mercy and grace given to him because he was not surrendered to the Lord like he wanted to be.

Rom 7: 24,25 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

So when we talk about being surrendered to the Lord we are talking about our desire not a reality!!!

We will Have to agree to disagree.

Earlier in the thread it was suggested that we examine what being 'born again' actually is.

To be born again one must submit to Jesus and surrender ones will.

Better to examine this issue on another thread - this disagreement indicates a fundamental difference of understanding of what being a follower of Jesus is all about.

You say "The reality is that none of us fully surrender our will to Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Well - maybe this is what distinguishes between those who know they are saved and those who don't.

I cant imagine how one can follow Jesus without a surrendered will.

I know of believers working in the war zones in the Middle East. Without a surrendered will they wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Without a surrendered will one is afraid to die.

Paul said "I die daily" - this is an example of a surrendered will.

Unbelievers are held captive to the fear of death.

Believers know they will live.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

To be born again one must submit to Jesus and surrender ones will.



How about some Chapter and verse for this False Gospel ? Have you ever read Gal1:8 to see the future of those that preach a so- called Gospel that differs from Paul’s.....

 

[Carl Emerson]

To be born again one must submit to Jesus and surrender ones will.



How about some Chapter and verse for this False Gospel ? Have you ever read Gal1:8 to see the future of those that preach a so- called Gospel that differs from Paul’s.....

I will start is seperate thread to discuss what it means to be born again...