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Lambano

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The only real necessity I see for man is to overcome evil... Not experience it.
I must gently point out that the act of overcoming evil is also an act of experiencing it.

The question still remains: Why does a good and sovereign God allow evil?

I'll bring back Epicurus's dilemma:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him 'God'?”

The traditional Christian's answer to Epicurus and his modern children is that God has a greater Good in mind that requires Him to tolerate Evil in this world, in this age, for a while. And the Christian lives in hope, trusting that God will eventually clean up the mess.
 
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EloyCraft

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The disciple conforms to Jesus. This is accomplished by a process of persecution forgiveness and sanctification.
Eventually this process forms Christians that would rejoice when persecuted knowing it was an opportunity to enter the process of conforming to Christ.

The world for them was good . They knew no evil.
 

Brakelite

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I must gently point out that the act of overcoming evil is also an act of experiencing it.

The question still remains: Why does a good and sovereign God allow evil?

I'll bring back Epicurus's dilemma:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him 'God'?”

The traditional Christian's answer to Epicurus and his modern children is that God has a greater Good in mind that requires Him to tolerate Evil in this world, in this age, for a while. And the Christian lives in hope, trusting that God will eventually clean up the mess.
I agree, and think that Epicurus' thesis a devilishly devised attack on the character of God... And that's the issue at stake here. Theodicy is a fascinating subject, and I love meditating upon it, and have a clear enough understanding of the issue in my mind, but often always fall short of expressing that in plain words that give the topic the reverence and honor and respect it deserves. But I love trying. So ...
In the beginning of the controversy, we are told of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. In symbols and type we are informed that the rebellion was a desire to receive the worship that belongs to God alone. It was a desire to take the throne. To run the government. (I think we are all mature enough thinkers and Christians here to know the scriptures that point to this). We are also informed that 1/3 of the angels were deceived into following Lucifer and taking his side. Obviously, this could not have been an armed insurrection. It was a war certainly, but much more like a political campaign. A war of words and ideas, just like any political campaign here where am aspiring leader denigrates the current administration, suggesting the old ideas of love and service are insufficient to rule beings who know already what they need, and don't need to be ruled out overruled by anyone. (A quick perusal of the antinomian threads will reveal that concept repeated ad nauseum). So the only way to promote such a campaign, which could not have taken overnight, but a long time, was to demean God's character. God is love. Lucifer, aka Satan, therefore had to persuade the angels that God is not love, but selfish. This was his argument against Eve. "There's a tree you're not allowed to eat? Seriously? Wow, obviously God is holding back something that's for your good. I know! He doesn't want competition! He knows you also can be as God, having knowledge of everything... Etc etc etc".
This slander.. This traffic...KJV Ezekiel 28:5-6, 16
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God....
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Traffic, merchandise,

7404 ‭הלָּכֻרְ‭ rëkullah ‭rek-ool-law’

‭‭pass part of ‭07402‭; n f; [BDB-940a]‭ ‭{See TWOT on 2165 @@ "2165a"}

‭‭AV-merchandise 2, traffick 2; 4‭

‭‭1) merchandise, traffic, trade‭

share the same root...

7400 ‭ליכִרָ‭ rakiyl ‭raw-keel’

‭‭from ‭07402‭ a scandal-monger (as travelling about); n m; [BDB-940b]‭ ‭{See TWOT on 2165 @@ "2165b"}

‭‭AV-slander 2, talebearer 2, talebearer +‭ 01980‭ 1, carry tales 1; 6‭

‭‭1) slander, slanderer, tale bearer, informer‭

So of course God could have put down the rebellion in an instant. One flick of His divine thumb and Satan would cease to exist. But what of the ideas that Satan made so public? That God is a tyrant, and didn't have the best interests of His creation at heart? Those ideas would not only have persisted in the minds of the angels, even the loyal ones, but would have been confirmed. Satan was clever enough to know this. That he would have to be given the opportunity to prove his ideas, right or wrong. And that is what the last 6000 years have been all about. The earth was a proving ground for Satan's philosophy. Could he run the earth better than God? Was he right about God's character and was his ways of governing an improvement? Only time and opportunity would tell. By the end of man's probation... The completion of the 6000 years since creation... The vindication of God's character... The vindication of God's style of government... And the vindication of His laws and statutes, would be complete. Satan's own character of course was revealed at the same time as God's... At Calvary. But as can be seen outside our front doors, not everyone is convinced. Not even in the church. But when Jesus comes in the glory of the angels, His own glory, and the glory of the Father, then, and only then, will every knee bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord and is worthy of our worship, adoration, and right to rule. So. That's my take on theodicy. Why there's evil. Why Satan was permitted to live. Why God has given His creation the free will to choose whom they will serve.

Now. I know you'll have questions lol.
 

GodsGrace

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This question has been on my mind the last few days, primarily because of the texas shooting. I think everyone is trying to figure out how to stop these shootings, but what i’d like to know, is what is the purpose of evil? What does satan get out of it? Satan had to know he would forever lose in the end when He saw Jesus rise on the 3rd day, so why go on making life so bad for everyone? Why does satan hate us so much? Are we merely pawns that he uses to get back at God?

I think the 2nd part of this topic is about when Jesus comes back and sets up His 1000 yr kingdom, and satan is bound up. With Jesus here on earth for all to see, and satan unable to spread his hate, will all alive at that time no longer do evil? Will all those alive at that time be saved?
Gosh Lifelong, I really hate to say this, but aren't you reformed?

If so, you should have been taught that it's to glorify God.

Of course, that's not true, and hence your dilemma.

To which there is no reply BTW, but it makes for an interesting thread.
 
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Lambano

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I agree, and think that Epicurus' thesis a devilishly devised attack on the character of God... And that's the issue at stake here.
Interestingly enough, Epicurus himself concluded that the gods or God, if they exist, are not interested in the affairs of men.
 

GodsGrace

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I agree, and think that Epicurus' thesis a devilishly devised attack on the character of God... And that's the issue at stake here. Theodicy is a fascinating subject, and I love meditating upon it, and have a clear enough understanding of the issue in my mind, but often always fall short of expressing that in plain words that give the topic the reverence and honor and respect it deserves. But I love trying. So ...
In the beginning of the controversy, we are told of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. In symbols and type we are informed that the rebellion was a desire to receive the worship that belongs to God alone. It was a desire to take the throne. To run the government. (I think we are all mature enough thinkers and Christians here to know the scriptures that point to this). We are also informed that 1/3 of the angels were deceived into following Lucifer and taking his side. Obviously, this could not have been an armed insurrection. It was a war certainly, but much more like a political campaign. A war of words and ideas, just like any political campaign here where am aspiring leader denigrates the current administration, suggesting the old ideas of love and service are insufficient to rule beings who know already what they need, and don't need to be ruled out overruled by anyone. (A quick perusal of the antinomian threads will reveal that concept repeated ad nauseum). So the only way to promote such a campaign, which could not have taken overnight, but a long time, was to demean God's character. God is love. Lucifer, aka Satan, therefore had to persuade the angels that God is not love, but selfish. This was his argument against Eve. "There's a tree you're not allowed to eat? Seriously? Wow, obviously God is holding back something that's for your good. I know! He doesn't want competition! He knows you also can be as God, having knowledge of everything... Etc etc etc".
This slander.. This traffic...KJV Ezekiel 28:5-6, 16
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God....
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Traffic, merchandise,

7404 ‭הלָּכֻרְ‭ rëkullah ‭rek-ool-law’

‭‭pass part of ‭07402‭; n f; [BDB-940a]‭ ‭{See TWOT on 2165 @@ "2165a"}

‭‭AV-merchandise 2, traffick 2; 4‭

‭‭1) merchandise, traffic, trade‭

share the same root...

7400 ‭ליכִרָ‭ rakiyl ‭raw-keel’

‭‭from ‭07402‭ a scandal-monger (as travelling about); n m; [BDB-940b]‭ ‭{See TWOT on 2165 @@ "2165b"}

‭‭AV-slander 2, talebearer 2, talebearer +‭ 01980‭ 1, carry tales 1; 6‭

‭‭1) slander, slanderer, tale bearer, informer‭

So of course God could have put down the rebellion in an instant. One flick of His divine thumb and Satan would cease to exist. But what of the ideas that Satan made so public? That God is a tyrant, and didn't have the best interests of His creation at heart? Those ideas would not only have persisted in the minds of the angels, even the loyal ones, but would have been confirmed. Satan was clever enough to know this. That he would have to be given the opportunity to prove his ideas, right or wrong. And that is what the last 6000 years have been all about. The earth was a proving ground for Satan's philosophy. Could he run the earth better than God? Was he right about God's character and was his ways of governing an improvement? Only time and opportunity would tell. By the end of man's probation... The completion of the 6000 years since creation... The vindication of God's character... The vindication of God's style of government... And the vindication of His laws and statutes, would be complete. Satan's own character of course was revealed at the same time as God's... At Calvary. But as can be seen outside our front doors, not everyone is convinced. Not even in the church. But when Jesus comes in the glory of the angels, His own glory, and the glory of the Father, then, and only then, will every knee bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord and is worthy of our worship, adoration, and right to rule. So. That's my take on theodicy. Why there's evil. Why Satan was permitted to live. Why God has given His creation the free will to choose whom they will serve.

Now. I know you'll have questions lol.
Sounds like Jesus failed.
And you've thought a lot about this.

So, if God is all good, where did evil come from?
 

Lambano

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Deism.
Could be.

But then why Jesus?
Judaism rejects Epicureanism; God is definitely interested in the affairs of men. That's the whole point of God chosing Israel. In fact, the Mishnah specifically cites Epicureans as being exceptions to the rule, "All Israel has a portion in the World to Come". We Christians inherited Judaism's rejection of Deism, and for the exact reason you cited: Jesus without question proves God's interest in the affairs of Humanity. For God so loved the world, that He gave his only-begotten Son.
 

Brakelite

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Sounds like Jesus failed.
Why? Is it His fault that there are so many who choose not to believe? Are there not a majority of brothers and sisters who still actually sincerely believe in eternal torment, despite the revelation of the Father's character through the life of Christ?
So, if God is all good, where did evil come from?
If we knew that, we'd start to excuse it. As it stands, we don't know where it came from. There is no adequate explanation for Lucifer's ego, pride and covetousness, therefore we cannot excuse Lucifer his sin... And I prefer it that way.
 
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GodsGrace

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Judaism rejects Epicureanism; God is definitely interested in the affairs of men. That's the whole point of God chosing Israel. In fact, the Mishnah specifically cites Epicureans as being exceptions to the rule, "All Israel has a portion in the World to Come". We Christians inherited Judaism's rejection of Deism, and for the exact reason you cited: Jesus without question proves God's interest in the affairs of Humanity. For God so loved the world, that He gave his only-begotten Son.
Agreed.
Deism doesn't make sense.
 

GodsGrace

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Why? Is it His fault that there are so many who choose not to believe? Are there not a majority of brothers and sisters who still actually sincerely believe in eternal torment, despite the revelation of the Father's character through the life of Christ?

If we knew that, we'd start to excuse it. As it stands, we don't know where it came from. There is no adequate explanation for Lucifer's ego, pride and covetousness, therefore we cannot excuse Lucifer his sin... And I prefer it that way.
Agreed.

I do believe, however, that there is a place some go to where God is not present.

Where do you believe Godless persons end up?
 

Ferris Bueller

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What is the purpose of evil?

Evil is the smelting furnace in which God refines gold and silver.

20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:20-21

Use whatever metaphor you want, but evil is the bad stuff used to cultivate the good stuff, like what manure is to a garden, or fire is to the smelting process. Some metals, some plantings respond well to the bad stuff and emerge as the valuable commodity sought after. Others do not. We'll see in the end who responded well and who did not.
 

Bible Highlighter

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This question has been on my mind the last few days, primarily because of the texas shooting. I think everyone is trying to figure out how to stop these shootings, but what i’d like to know, is what is the purpose of evil? What does satan get out of it? Satan had to know he would forever lose in the end when He saw Jesus rise on the 3rd day, so why go on making life so bad for everyone? Why does satan hate us so much? Are we merely pawns that he uses to get back at God?

I think the 2nd part of this topic is about when Jesus comes back and sets up His 1000 yr kingdom, and satan is bound up. With Jesus here on earth for all to see, and satan unable to spread his hate, will all alive at that time no longer do evil? Will all those alive at that time be saved?

What is the purpose of evil? Well, evil exists because God gave us free will choice to choose either good or evil. There is no darkness in GOD (1 John 1:5). God cannot be tempted to do evil, neither does He tempt any man (James 1:13). When every man is tempted, he is enticed and drawn away by his own lusts (James 1:14). God may permit evil, but He does not decree it. But why does God permit evil? Because without evil, there would be no true love for people to freely choose God. For love that is forced is not true love. For when two couples agree to love each other freely, we know that’s true love. It’s the same with God.

Children may die and suffer in this life because we are in a sin fallen world (Whereby man has chose to rebel against God). The only way of escape is Jesus Christ and His good ways. But does that mean evil can rule and reign free? I don’t believe so. Remember the story of Joseph and his brothers? Joseph’s brothers did evil towards him, and yet God intended to use that evil for a greater plan for good in the end. From the disciple’s perspective when their master (Jesus) died, they were saddened greatly. But they failed to realize that what the evil men did against Jesus was for a greater plan for good by God. It was for the salvation of the entire world. For this was the death of the most innocent man ever. Where was the justice? God the Father was working justice to save mankind through the Son. Jesus was more innocent than any child, and yet He was unjustly killed by men. But God had a great plan in all of that. This is how we must see bad situations in life. God is working a great plan for good that we cannot always see. For example: People get upset and angry at the death of innocent children. But this points to the greater sacrifice of the most innocent man being killed (Jesus Christ). Know that our sin was deserving of death, and yet the Savior came to die in our place. His free will love offer is for all who choose to accept it and to then be responsible with it. This gift is none other than Jesus Christ (GOD) Himself. For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son. In this life, you are going to have heart ache and pain, and even death, but with GOD, He can turn the darkness around for good. God is sovereign even over life and death. God is always one step ahead of the enemy (the devil). So evil is not winning. Good is winning because God is always in control (even if we do not see His greater plan for good in this life in all things). This is why God requires us to walk by faith and not by sight. God wants us to trust in Him in that He is good and He is in control despite the darkness in this world. In fact, Christians are to share in the sufferings of Christ. We must walk as He walked.
 
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Brakelite

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I do believe, however, that there is a place some go to where God is not present.
If the only source of life isn't present, and those there are still conscious, then they must be immortal right? Yet scripture says unequivocally that only God is immortal.
Where do you believe Godless persons end up?
After receiving the appropriate number of 'stripes', they die. That's their wages which they earned. Let's not cheat them out of their wages by giving them eternal life.
 

Bible Highlighter

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This question has been on my mind the last few days, primarily because of the texas shooting. I think everyone is trying to figure out how to stop these shootings, but what i’d like to know, is what is the purpose of evil? What does satan get out of it? Satan had to know he would forever lose in the end when He saw Jesus rise on the 3rd day, so why go on making life so bad for everyone? Why does satan hate us so much? Are we merely pawns that he uses to get back at God?

I think the 2nd part of this topic is about when Jesus comes back and sets up His 1000 yr kingdom, and satan is bound up. With Jesus here on earth for all to see, and satan unable to spread his hate, will all alive at that time no longer do evil? Will all those alive at that time be saved?

I would recommend checking out the Christian film called Polycarp.
It will help give you an idea of what the early church went through.


full

Watch Polycarp | Prime Video
 

Bible Highlighter

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God also conquers all evil. Nobody is going to get away with anything in this life.
There will be a judgment and all men will pay for their evils, too.
The wicked will be destroyed.
God and His goodness will reign supreme in the end.
But without evil, there is no good to conquer and put under His feet.
I believe that without the darkness, we would not truly appreciate the light (Which is GOD).
 

Bible Highlighter

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I'm sorry to say that most Protestants are not interested in the early church.

I respect Polycarp but even he didn't have this answer.

Will watch it.

The issue of evil is facing those who want to do evil against you because of your faith in Jesus Christ.
Polycarp was a martyr for his faith. It’s a part of sharing in the sufferings of Christ.