The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[ewq1938]

What about John the Baptist? Is he not the first witness to who Christ is? Revelation 20:4
Are you saying that John is not a beheaded martyr?

No one would say that. Let me ask the same dumb question, Are YOU saying that John is not a beheaded martyr?

How about asking better, and relevant questions?

John was not beheaded for refusing to worship the beast or take the mark. The Mark doesn't even exist yet, although types and shadows of it do but the actual Revelation 13 mark does not exist yet.

And what about Stephen, who was stoned to death, declaring the vision given to him of seeing Christ at the right hand of the Father. Acts 7:55-60?

He wasn't beheaded.

Are the Premils saying that John and Stephen won't be reigning in the KoG on earth, as you all believe?

You are way out in left field now. No one, again, believes in this nonsense you are inventing. From now on stupid, off topic, nonsense questions will be ignored.

 

[Earburner]

They aren't identified so we cannot say who they are except they are dead saints. They could be OT or NT saints. The little while they must wait is the Great Tribulation so it's near. So this would be taking place just before the Great Tribulation starts.

The word "altar" in Revelation 6:9, is symbolic of "remembrance". The OT saints were not persecuted for Jesus' sake, but rather for the word of God and the testimony which they held, by having faith in it. All of such were placed under the symbolic book of God's remembrence, so that they would not be forgotten by God.
Malachi 3:16.
Rev.6[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Ever since Pentecost, they are now "sealed by God's Holy Spirit unto the Day of redemption", waiting also to be made immortal in the Day of Christ's Glorious appearance from Heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm talking about the unsaved

I am talking about life after death. Death is now. After the Second Coming life reigns, not death.

 

[Zao is life]

The context is a group of people were beheaded in the Great Tribulation because they refused the mark of the beast and had the testimony of Christ. That's a specific group being killed for specific reasons at a specific time. Your view of it does not match the wording.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These also die from beheading not other ways of dying like so many of the saints being murdered in various ways. Amillennialism tends to change beheading into any form of death. Changing what the text says is at the heart of Amillennialism.

You claim that by default when you say that the verses in Rev. that depict the beheaded saints can't be from a previous time period - as in all saints ever martyred since Christ's First Advent.

Mark 6:16
"But hearing Herod said, It is John, whom I beheaded. He has risen from the dead!"

Herod associated beheading with physical death. Surely it's natural that the reader of the Revelation would also associate beheading with physical death?

Would the reader of the Revelation associate souls living and reigning with Christ, following their having been beheaded, with resurrection from death?

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. (Revelation 20:5-7).

Humans having been beheaded is only mentioned twice in the New Testament. Beheading and the concept of resurrection are also spoken of in the same context twice.

I suppose it's just coincidence. No one should associate the word resurrection with the word living. It's nonsense. We should especially not associate it with beheading for refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark upon the forehead, just because the passage associates the mention of resurrection with all these things. I mean, really, what sort of exegesis is that?

 

[GEN2REV]

The context is a group of people were beheaded in the Great Tribulation because they refused the mark of the beast and had the testimony of Christ. That's a specific group being killed for specific reasons at a specific time. Your view of it does not match the wording.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These also die from beheading not other ways of dying like so many of the saints being murdered in various ways. Amillennialism tends to change beheading into any form of death. Changing what the text says is at the heart of Amillennialism.

Your verse doesn't speak a single word about the Great Tribulation.

More Pre-Mil manipulation of Revelation 20 to suit your cause. That is very rude of you and disrespectful to those you are hoping to teach here.

You continue to speak of Revelation as if it were chronological and literal, then claim that you do not when called out about it. That is dishonest and plain ugly toward those who intend to learn.

An admonishment is in order for your conduct within this thread. You need to act with some dignity and respect for those who are following along and stop purposely misleading young Christians.

Shame on you.

 

[Timtofly]

You should be able to agree that in all of the history of the Church Age, there were numerous martyrs, and not just in the end time church. Therefore, God is not going to honor any martyr above another.

and I saw the souls of them that
1. were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
2. and [were beheaded] for the word of God,
3. and [were beheaded] which had not worshipped the beast,

1. The Early church.
2. The Reformation church.
3. The End time church.

And most assuredly, all did reign with Christ during their life time, in the present Age of God's Grace through Jesus.
1 Peter 2[9] But ye are*
a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
[10] Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

*Note: in the present tense.

Those in Revelation 20:4 are not martyrs. Beheading is the alter call, the act of redemption. It is either the mark or cutting one's head off. Satan demands the mark, and the choice to reject Satan, is eternal life. But to get eternal life, one must chop off their head, otherwise they die in their sins. Martyrs are those redeemed, who are killed by other humans as heretics. Those beheaded are not accused of being a Heretic. Those beheaded are cutting off their head to be saved.

Cutting off one's head is literal and physical. It results in physical death, not spiritual life. Cutting off one's head is not being born again, but literally physically dying. The resurrection is physical so they can live again on earth, for 1,000 years.

During the 42 months of utter desolation, the Atonement Covenant of salvation ceases. There is no more living by faith. There are only two types of souls. Those removed from the Lamb's book of life, and marked by God. Those who cut off their head to avoid receiving the mark, who are physically dead and resurrected after the 42 months are over.

 

[GEN2REV]

Mark 6:16
"But hearing Herod said, It is John, whom I beheaded. He has risen from the dead!"

Herod associated beheading with physical death. Surely it's natural that the reader of the Revelation would also associate beheading with physical death?

Would the reader of the Revelation associate souls living and reigning with Christ, following their having been beheaded, with resurrection from death?

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. (Revelation 20:5-7).

Humans having been beheaded is only mentioned twice in the New Testament. Beheading and the concept of resurrection are also spoken of in the same context twice.

I suppose it's just coincidence. No one should associate the word resurrection with the word living. It's nonsense. We should especially not associate it with beheading for refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark upon the forehead, just because the passage associates the mention of resurrection with all these things. I mean, really, what sort of exegesis is that?

Can you elaborate on your point here.

I'm not following.

 

[Zao is life]

Time existed before the Earth did. He is called the ancient of days for a reason.

How can you say that when the bible says “in the beginning” ? God was before the world was made.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End

IMO Time..

The only time that exists at the moment you are reading this is the moment you are reading this. The future does not exist this moment, neither does the past. Moment by moment, the only time that can ever exist, is the moment. One moment becomes the next, becomes the next, because time exists only because God exists and God is the One who IS (the moment), WAS (the past) and IS TO COME.

Time is eternally becoming because God is eternally becoming. As long as God exists, time exists.

We 'measure' time in terms of the cycles of the birth, life and death of galaxies, of stars, of planets and of life on earth, i.e time can only be measured in the creation and because of creation, but as long as God exists time exists because the moment exists.

 

[Zao is life]

Can you elaborate on your point here.

I'm not following.

What is it about what the text in Revelation 20 associates with resurrection that you unable to follow?

 

[Timtofly]

Well said "Therefore, God is not going to honor any martyr above another.". How true they wouldn't be more honored than those burned to death or fed to lions

The martyrs of the last 6,000 years were glorified and will become fully restored sons of God. Those beheaded in Satan's 42 months of utter desolation only receive physical life, and barely escape the LOF.


"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Those beheaded in Satan's 42 months, have no works at all to show. They were dead in sin, until they chopped off their heads. The only reward is being resurrected. Only then can they live for Christ. You are currently living for Christ to recieve future rewards. Those in Satan's 42 months of utter desolation do not live as priest. The act of salvation literal ends their physical life. The only time they will live as priest is after a resurrection. In the here and now you rule and reign with Christ to gain rewards. After physical death, it is reward time. You do not work for rewards after physical death, do you?

 

[GEN2REV]

IMO Time..

The only time that exists at the moment you are reading this is the moment you are reading this. The future does not exist this moment, neither does the past. Moment by moment, the only time that can ever exist, is the moment. One moment becomes the next, becomes the next, because time exists only because God exists and God is the One who IS (the moment), WAS (the past) and IS TO COME.

Time is eternally becoming because God is eternally becoming. As long as God exists, time exists.

We 'measure' time in terms of the cycles of the birth, life and death of galaxies, of stars, of planets and of life on earth, i.e time can only be measured in the creation and because of creation, but as long as God exists time exists because the moment exists.

I already had you pegged for one of these New Agers claiming to be Christian - with your 'We are the World' - World Government, World Religion, Universalist Avatar.

God is not eternally becoming. He is not evolving.

That implies that He is not yet complete.

He is now what He has always been, and what He will always be. He exists outside of time.

Time cannot exist without space and matter. They are 3 dimensions that are 100% dependent on each other to exist.

Your credibility as a sincere Christian is badly damaged.

 

[GEN2REV]

What is it about what the text in Revelation 20 associates with resurrection that you unable to follow?

Only your commentary about it.

That's all.

 

[Timtofly]

And of course from the Amil. view, that is true. All Born Again Christians have been, and are NOW reigning WITH Him as priests and kings FOR the salvation of others into the KoG, and for nothing else.

So you accept, all redeemed are physically alive and serving God day and night in His temple? They are physically enjoying Paradise?

Notice the difference: Amil only view a physical resurrection after their alledged millennium. They do not even accept a physical resurrection during the Millennium.

Pre-mil point out a physical resurrection to reign with Christ during the Millennium. Those beheaded never reigned with Christ once prior to death. They are not redeemed until they cut off their heads. They only cut off their heads to avoid the mark. Otherwise they should be in the LOF with all the other dead.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

 

[GEN2REV]

Those beheaded in Satan's 42 months of utter desolation only receive physical life, and barely escape the LOF.

So you have scissored 2 Peter 3:10 completely out of your Bible then?

 

[Zao is life]

Ha.

I already had you pegged for one of these New Agers claiming to be Christian - with your 'We are the World' - World Government, World Religion, Universalist Avatar.

God is not eternally becoming. He is not evolving.

That implies that He is not yet complete.

Your credibility as a sincere Christian is badly damaged.

You seem to have the knowledge of Christ of the hearts and thoughts of all mankind the way you throw around judgments. God is not evolving, but He is self-existing, and this is the Strong's definition of His name:

yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal;
{Jehovah} Jewish national name of God: - {Jehovah} the Lord. Compare {H3050} H3069.

1961 hâyâh haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to {exist} that {is} be or {become} come to pass (always {emphatic} and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - {beacon} X {altogether} be ({-come} {accomplished} {committed} {like}) {break} {cause} come (to {pass}) {continue} {do} {faint} {fall} + {follow} {happen} X {have} {last} {pertain} quit (one-) {self} {require} X use.

Your credibility as a sincere Christian is badly damaged by your repeated pretentious placing yourself up as Christ, able to know the thoughts of others, first in @ewq1938 's case, and now in my case.

PS: I do not follow new age beliefs.

You have also proved that you do not understand time because your concept of God is even more limited than that of most Christians. You've shown that you have never considered His name and what it means. You seem to think of God like you think of stagnant water, never moving.

 

[GEN2REV]

So you accept, all redeemed are physically alive and serving God day and night in His temple? They are physically enjoying Paradise?

Notice the difference: Amil only view a physical resurrection after their alledged millennium. They do not even accept a physical resurrection during the Millennium.

None of that is what Earburner said.

 

[GEN2REV]

You seem to have the knowledge of Christ of the hearts and thoughts of all mankind the way you throw around judgments. God is not evolving, but He is self-existing, and this is the Strong's definition of His name:

yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal;
{Jehovah} Jewish national name of God: - {Jehovah} the Lord. Compare {H3050} H3069.

1961 hâyâh haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to {exist} that {is} be or {become} come to pass (always {emphatic} and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - {beacon} X {altogether} be ({-come} {accomplished} {committed} {like}) {break} {cause} come (to {pass}) {continue} {do} {faint} {fall} + {follow} {happen} X {have} {last} {pertain} quit (one-) {self} {require} X use.

Your credibility as a sincere Christian is badly damaged by your repeated pretentious placing yourself up as Christ, able to know the thoughts of others, first in @ewq1938 's case, and now in my case.

PS: I do not follow new age beliefs.

You have also proved that you do not understand time because your concept of God is even more limited than that of most Christians. You've shown that you have never considered His name and what it means. You seem to think of God like you think of stagnant water, never moving.

I don't need to read anybody's mind/thoughts to simply judge according to Scripture. You are either in alignment with what it teaches or you are not. God has made it simple for His servants to judge others' doctrine - whether it be truly of God or not.

And you changed your claim about God.

Shocker.

And yes, I do have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16

 

[Zao is life]

I don't need to read anybody's mind/thoughts to simply judge according to Scripture. You are either in alignment with what it teaches or you are not. God has made it simple for His servants to judge others' doctrine - whether it be truly of God or not.

And you changed your claim about God.

Shocker.

And yes, I do have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16

God is eternally becoming. It's part of His eternal self-existence. Read the Dictionary definition of His name.

@GEN2REV PS: If you'd give the things you say a little more thought then you would not be making yourself guilty of accusations like the accuser.

 

[Timtofly]

You claim that by default when you say that the verses in Rev. that depict the beheaded saints can't be from a previous time period - as in all saints ever martyred since Christ's First Advent.

There is a default. Martyrs have a choice to live or die, no? If they make a lie denouncing God by a human standard, what, they live a few more days on earth?

Those beheaded in Satan's 42 months have no choice. They are dead in their sin. They are dead physically. Cutting off their head is their only salvation.

Truly tell me, does God condemn a righteous man who lived their whole life for God, whom other men put on trial as a Heretic, who at the last moment wanted to live, so they falsely recant to save their physical body? Is that recantation a literal life sentence in the LOF?

Do you then condemn Peter to the lake of fire, because he denied the Cross, instead of dying with Jesus that day, as a co-conspirator?

The default position is that those during Satan's 42 months are not martyrs. They are lying, cheating, worthless dead humans, who change their mind and get their head chopped off, to avoid eternal Death and the LOF.

 

[Zao is life]

And yes, I do have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:16

You do not know the motives, thoughts, beliefs and desires of the hearts of humans so that you can place yourself in His judgment seat the way you do. If you had the mind of Christ you would not be accusing.