Thanks Robert, no "overloading" with scriptures so I'll go over these.
Yeah hey, us "babes" in Christ.. the others have already obtained perfect knowledge via the Internet and wonder what would happen should the WWB shut down?
Oh well, the last shall be first, the first last with all the pomp and splendor.
At least I can communicate with you friend for I sense you have a meek spirit and no need for overwhelming rhetoric's.
I'll stay in touch.
Johann.
Oh my goodness. So Jesus is asking us all to be separatists. (2 Cor.6:17) sounds ominously rebellious... Fundamentalist. Which of course it is. Grounds for charges of sedition right there.
I mentioned I live a reclusive, "separate" style of live Backlit and this is the "comical" response...not befitting those who claim they are Christians, probably in name only.
The quickest way to see whether a professed believer is a believer is to visit them in their house, speaking from experience.
Guess I will get it now.
J.
I mentioned I live a reclusive, "separate" style of live Backlit and this is the "comical" response...not befitting those who claim they are Christians, probably in name only.
The quickest way to see whether a professed believer is a believer is to visit them in their house, speaking from experience.
Guess I will get it now.
J.
Oh, it has its serious side for sure. One day you will assuredly be tried for sedition. No world union of church and state could abide the existence of separatists. But I laugh at them... Those who would dare challenge these detestable renegades...KJV Acts 9:4-5
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Question
...you shall surely die..literally
or figuratively?
If they died in a literal sense then the story would have end right there John.
V-Qal-InfAbs (BSB Morphology)
Verb - Qal - Infinitive absolute
Lemma: מוּת
Word: you will surely
Hebrew: מ֥וֹת
Transliteration: mō·wṯ
H4191 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
H4191 מוּת muwth (mooth) v.
1. (literally or figuratively) to die.
2. (causatively) to kill.
Verb - Qal - Imperfect - second person masculine singular
Lemma: מוּת
Word: die.”
Hebrew: תָּמֽוּת׃
Transliteration: tā·mūṯ
H4191 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
H4191 מוּת muwth (mooth) v.
1. (literally or figuratively) to die.
2. (causatively) to kill.
I assume you are familiar with the Jewish mode of interpretation?
Peshat, Remez and Derash or the literal, allegorical, moral and anagogical approach to study the Scriptures?
So, did our first parents die in a literal or in a figurative sense?
Good question Johann.
This question has stumped many a professed Christian, and confused some.
I was guided to understand it by consider Genesis in light of its context, and the way it was written.
I'll explain what I mean.
Some professed Christians think that God created everything in a blink of an eye, or like as with the snap of a finger in 6 literal 24 hour days, and so, they think that when God said, "In the day you eat it...", Adam should have dropped dead before the sun went down.
A careful reading of Genesis however, as I came to appreciate, reveals that a day in the creation account was not 24 hours long, but rather a day from God's vantage point. It doesn't need to be 1,000 years exactly, but a period of time. See Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8
One hour is a brief period of time - very brief, but to us, one hour is quite some time... years even. See John 5:28; Romans 13:11; 1 John 2:18; Revelation 17:12
Hence, when God created Adam, he spend days and nights getting to know the animals, and naming them; communicating with God every evening, and enjoying varieties of food.
So Eve came some years after Adam was created.
Some might question, "... but wait! Are you sure?"
I would encourage them to read Genesis 2:19, 20, and count 24 hours in that day... giving Adam a few hours to rest, sleep, and eat.
It can't work... unless Adam is Flash Gordian 6000 BC. ;)
Consider too, Genesis 2:4. How long is the day mentioned there? 6 days.
Then look at Genesis 2:2-3 again.
2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Here, we see that it is the seventh day that Adam sinned. When did that day end?
According to Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4, it has not yet ended.
Hebrews 3:
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
11 So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;
5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
God's day of rest continues, until his purpose is fulfilled.
We know this, from the above scriptures, as well as the fact that God's day of rest was to allow for his original purpose to come to a completion.
Those who disobey, from Adam's offspring, would not enter into God's rest, but those who obey, will.
Adam therefore died the same day he ate the fruit, since that day has not ended.
He also died from God's standpoint, in a spiritual sense. So in that sense, Adam was a living dead. ;)
What I find interested about this, is that God rested on the seventh day after his creative works. So could it be, when that rest day ends, God will again work on some new creations! It's just a thought, which the righteous will have to wait and see, but that's an exciting thought. :)
What I find interested about this, is that God rested on the seventh day after his creative works. So could it be, when that rest day ends, God will again work on some new creations! It's just a thought, which the righteous will have to wait and see, but that's an exciting thought.
Interesting question.
I believe interpretations belong to God (Genesis 40:8), so I leave interpretation alone, and let scripture explain scripture.
The only ones who do not sleep in the dust are those mentioned at 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Those are the remaining of the firstfruits to God, and the lamb. 1 Corinthians 15:20; Revelation 14:4 Their citizenship exists in heaven. Philippians 3:20
A global union of church and state. As the river of Babylon, Euphrates was the source of sustaining the wealth and living of the literal city, so when the symbolic river dries up,
KJV Revelation 17:15
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
KJV Revelation 17:1
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Those people, and their rulers who originally supported her recognize her true character and realize, too late, that they've been betrayed and lied to. So they destroy her. Her support dries up. She's alone, and being an adulteress, suffers the OT death sentence for adultery... Is burnt. Now you may be wondering, hold on, I thought they were stoned. Well, most were... But not the daughters of priests. Babylon is a child of the counterfeit priesthood. I'll leave it to you too identify who they are.
Very good effort.
Wasn't it the ten horns - the kings - that destroy her though?
The waters - people - yes, they dry up, but they don't take part in destroying her... as far as I read.
How do you suppose they dried up?
So what is represented by making her naked; eating her flesh; and burning her? Not a literal fire, remember. The harlot is not a person.
Did you identify Babylon the Great as religious?
I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone. What If? What if God were intending to express that those who were not restored to communion with Him would spend forever apart from Him, which would be torment? What would He say? How would He express this?
Matthew 25:41-46 KJV
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Why shouldn't we think that's exactly what God did? That He expressed the very thing He intended to express, clearly, easily understood, a warning not to be missed?
In this view, there's no reformation for those in the lake of fire, only eternal torment, which prevents anyone from sinning, because they are too busy suffering.
I hear it said by others, that character isn't formed in a crisis, but revealed. I'm still wrestling somewhat with that, for similar to what you are saying, it seems that experientially, crisis come along to compel us to lengths and heights of maturity heretofore never experienced. Maybe there's a bit of both. The crisis reveals our lack of preparedness and maturity, at least in those crisis that seriously test our limits. When we realize our limitations, we go back to the Word for further refinement.
I think it's both. Peter talks about being proven by testing, and Paul, in Corinthians, talks about every temptation having a way out, which is literally like "a save haven" from the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV
13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
"a way of escape", this is a particular way, intended to deliver you to an particular destination.
Each temptation/testing, if you respond correctly in faith in God, never stepping into your own will/flesh to take over the outcome, but remaining yielded to God in trust, enduring whatever the circumstance, this will produce in you a desired change.
2 Corinthians 3:18 . . . beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord we are being transformed into the same image,
Romans 5 . . . tribulations work endurance, and endurance works experience, and experience works hope . . . which is another way of saying faith/trust, specifically, the outcome of our faith. The more tribulations we endure as Christians, the stronger our expectation for what God has promised to us. Not unbelievers, mind you!
Temptations/testings prove we are real children of God, because we endure as we trust Him. Unbelievers don't do that. Enduring as we trust Him, this produces in us greater spiritual maturity, and offen, I think, will focus us onto some particular aspect of life and ministry that God is working into us individually.
It kind of sounds like he's saying the same thing as "the person who denies there's a number six obviously doesn't believe there's a number six."
It seemed to me that he was just stating the painfully obvious.
But I guess the placement of the word "fact" makes all the difference.
Of course, as those who know me best will know, I believe hellfire is qiute literal.
I also understand that the Book of Revelation is filled with images that are at once symbolic and then as quickly proceeded by literal ones, even within a single verse or sentence, at times.**
Every time I make a clear statement like this, I somehow feel the need to say that I bear no ill will toward those who disagree and that men must not be hindered in their desire to make uninhibited, well-informed, and conscientious decisions pertaining to faith and morals, and I feel compelled to emphasize this because I see so many claiming (or otherwise exhibiting) to be victims of judgmentalism, condemnation, and virtual persecution.
**I would also suggest that all those who seek to study any Scripture, but especially end-time prophecy, should pray fervently and earnestly for the Holy Spirit to guide their hearts and minds before commencing. It seems like it would be easy to recognize that the portions of Scripture that are most likely to have widely differing interpretations would be the ones that require the ablest spiritual discernment to understand correctly. But I guess it should be no surprise that since the differing conclusions indeed do exist, that many do not prioritize complete reliance upon God's blessing to understand. I don't think this can be overstated. I say this understanding that I, myself don't realize the gravity of this principle.
More uncomfortable. The word faith is a bit vague in a lot of people’s minds. They think of faith as sets of doctrines and they think they must be defended. But faith means trust, and examining where you trust God versus where you trust govt, institutions, authority figures, stockpiles of money, world views, is not so vague. And because it’s precision rather than vagueness its, yes, more intrusive. You begin to get the inkling that someone has held you back by distracting you with busy brickmaking when it’s not a race of brickmaking but a race of trust. At that point is where a man begins to shed a lot of the worlds weight and begins to make great strides. He refuses the weights, the demands, the unnecessary. He sees them now for what they were and he just…shrugs them from his shoulders. It makes him appear lazy and undutiful to others since he no longer involves himself in busy brickmaking. It can create problems in his home life because family can feel they’ve “lost” him or her. He becomes quite practical and uninvolved in conventions. Like…he will set the table but he will no longer set it the way the world says he has to because two forks is nonsensical to him. Use the same fork for salad and meat and don’t expect him to pick up weights again that he has shed for no good or practical reason or make unnecessary work for whoever has to wash the extra forks because he really won’t do such unnecessary things anymore because they make no practical sense. He might even stop wearing ties or…well, I’m coming up with very little examples but you get the picture.
Pragmatically (rather than ideally) speaking, though, don't you think that the word has more than one meaning and that as finite beings we tend to blur, or even cross the lines of distinction between them?
I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone. What If? What if God were intending to express that those who were not restored to communion with Him would spend forever apart from Him, which would be torment? What would He say? How would He express this?
Matthew 25:41-46 KJV
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Why shouldn't we think that's exactly what God did? That He expressed the very thing He intended to express, clearly, easily understood, a warning not to be missed?
...but I did read it the way it read.
The lake of fire - everlasting fire - is symbolic of the second death. Full stop.
Therefore the torment is not literal, but signifies something.
Why not read it the way it does...
Revelation 17
1 ...“Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
Dude, that is one drunk woman. Better get out of her... fast. Revelation 18:4
As an aside (possibly), if you'd asked me that 30 years ago I would have said they began to die, not really knowing what that means. For a time I flirted with an idea that since Peter said that to the LORD a day is as a thousand years, I thought that since we have no record of anyone living to be 1000, they did, in fact, die that same day. I don't rule that possibility out, but I think I tend now to have a more informed view of my original position: "So is My word that goeth forth from My mouth; it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish the thing whereunto I sent it." (paraphrasing Isaiah 55, I think) When God speaks, His word goes out on a mission, and sometimes He chooses to extend the work and results before His word returns to Him. I believe Adam and Eve's cells began to die off just a hair faster than they could be replaced at the very nanosecond they crossed the threshold of sin. And that the process has been accelerating ever since, to where we are today. If we didn't have all the technology/medicine we have today, our life span/expectancy would probably be lower than it was in the 1930s' Depression era, when it was around 50 or so. Thinking out loud, I guess. :)
