Let's discuss..cessation after death?

[marks]

You know, I think when I said "dig into" I meant mostly with other people. I read his letters and Acts all the time. I just get uncomfortable discussing a lot of it because so much of it is so hotly and contentiously debated. Maybe I'm just neurotic.

Or maybe just careful.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you.

I agree, I understand that God works differently with us all. In my experience, when God has seemed silent to me, the reason was that I was hiding from Him. Whenever I find I'm trying to hide, I stop, and find He is as close as He has ever been.

Your "nights of darkness" seem foreign to me, who believes that God created us to have communion with Him, and a life of rejoicing in His Spirit.

Regardless of what methods He uses in our lives, I am fully convinced that His intent for us is abundance of life now, and we are either experiencing that, or we are growing in trust so that we will actually believe He's given us this freedom from flesh and sin and the world.

Much love!

And that’s okay that you don’t understand it. How could you if you haven’t experienced it? It’s a very great vexation to someone who is experiencing it to be counseled that it’s because of something they must have done, a bit like…the men who gave Job bad counsel. Their pain is made worse by the counsel that they have brought a punishment on themselves when it’s not a punishment but a purification, actually a blessing.
I'm reminded of a few poor souls I’ve run across who suffer from scrupulosity. I wouldn’t dare to attempt to counsel them. I just run and find someone who’s lived through it and come out of it because I can in no way understand what’s going on with them. They seem completely convinced they’ve committed the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and their suffering is bad.

 

[The Disciple John]

Oh but I did answer.

Tell me . . . what exactly does death being cast into the lake of fire, what exactly does that have to do with whether or not a created being might be forever tormented in the lake of fire? Do you acknowledge that Satan will be forever tormented there? The beast and the false prophet? Where do you draw the line here? Anything and anyone tossed into the lake of fire will automatically, necessarily cease to exist?

You are not making a valid argument, but ask a leading question as if it were, therefore I characterized it as a "gotcha" question. Whatever you want to call it, hopefully you will now understand my answer.

Your question is irrelevant to the question at hand, more simply stated.

Much love!

The question is both a valid and relevant one.
One who claims the lake of fire to be a literal fire, is ignoring the fact that the lake of fire is symbolic, meaning, it represents, or symbolizes something - death - the second one.
So it's understandable why they would want to ignore that fact, since the idea that hell is a place of fiery torment, cannot be reconciled with the idea that the lake of fire is a place of fiery torment.
Moreover, since death and hell cannot be burnt in a literal fire, it would make the ones making that claim uncomfortable having to explain the incompatibility. Understandably, it would be easier to ignore any reference or mention of those things.

If I were in that position, I would humbly admit I am wrong, rather than stubbornly insist... but that's me. Then again, if I am one of those mentioned at 2 Corinthians 4:4, I can't say I would not... stubbornly insist, that is. ;)

Something to think about...
Isn't Satan's torment symbolic, like the lake of fire is.
The angel does not tell us what every symbolic thing meant. For example, the angel tells us what the beast's ten horns represents - Revelation 17:12, but he doesn't tell us whom the harlot riding the beast represent. He gives us clues, that's all.

Not really.

Well, on reflection, I suppose. It seems you do agree with what I was thinking, that you understand when someone dies, all they were ceases to be. No surviving soul, no form of afterlife, only, if God should then recreate you, some version of you.

Yes?

Much love!

You believe that! I'm shocked.
Yes. That's what I am saying... maybe I went the long way around. Lol

 

[Enoch111]

Just one passage of Scripture rarely makes anything perfectly clear—that's just sound hermeneutics.

If you are unwilling to take the solemn words of Christ to heart in that one passage, you will not be satisfied with 100 passages. Naysayers are never satisfied with Scripture.

 

[marks]

And that’s okay that you don’t understand it. How could you if you haven’t experienced it? It’s a very great vexation to someone who is experiencing it to be counseled that it’s because of something they must have done, a bit like…the men who gave Job bad counsel.
I'm reminded of a few poor souls I’ve run across who suffer from scrupulosity. I wouldn’t dare to attempt to counsel them. I just run and find someone who’s lived through it and come out of it because I can in no way understand what’s going on with them. They seem completely convinced they’ve committed the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and their suffering is bad.

I simply offer God's word, to be believed. Prayerfully.

I had to look this up, scrupulosity.

It's just another way that people walk according to flesh. OCD with a moral twist. I think that we have become so accustomed to a fleshy sort of life that we don't even realize it often times that this is what we are doing.

When we are not rejoicing, and if we are not in disciplining, we are being fleshy. Impatient? Fleshy. Worried? Vindictive? Cut off from God? All of these are fleshy life things.

Praying always with all prayer and suplication, that's spirit. Rejoicing always, faithful always, at peace always, that's spirit. Either we are experiencing the fruit of the Spirit in our lives, or that means we are living fleshy lives.

For He has promised, I will never leave you, nor forsake you.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

One who claims the lake of fire to be a literal fire, is ignoring the fact that the lake of fire is symbolic, meaning, it represents, or symbolizes something - death - the second one.

How can the Lake of Fire be deemed to be "symbolic" when Jesus plainly told you that it was created for the devil and his angels???? And Revelation 20:10 confirms this.

So you are another naysayer who wants to present fantasy as "fact". Do you have any regard for the actual words of Christ recorded in the Bible, or are we just playing theological games?

 

[marks]

You believe that! I'm shocked.
Yes. That's what I am saying... maybe I went the long way around. Lol

Rather, I just wanted to make sure I understood your view.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh my gosh. I’m out for the night. Wasn’t it good to meet johann?? See you guys later. As always, it was so great to speak with you all.

 

[marks]

One who claims the lake of fire to be a literal fire, is ignoring the fact that the lake of fire is symbolic, meaning, it represents, or symbolizes something - death - the second one.
So it's understandable why they would want to ignore that fact, since the idea that hell is a place of fiery torment, cannot be reconciled with the idea that the lake of fire is a place of fiery torment.

Revelation 20:10 KJV
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The devil is tossed into a symbol to be tormented forever and ever? And again . . . Hell and the Lake of Fire are not the same.

Isn't Satan's torment symbolic, like the lake of fire is.

Symbolic torment? And this does not seem like stretching it out a bit? It does to me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you are unwilling to take the solemn words of Christ to heart in that one passage, you will not be satisfied with 100 passages. Naysayers are never satisfied with Scripture.

IF God says something even once, that's enough!

Much love!

 

[marks]

G'night all!

Much love!

 

[The Disciple John]

Hi, John.

I haven't as yet had the pleasure of making your acquaintance.

Job 19:26 KJV: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
​

What on earth will we do if Biblehub.com shuts down?
Am I right?

Hi Barney. Job is thinking like I am. If it so happens that I end up like one of these

... after the worms have had a belly full, yet in my flesh I will see God, just as Job hoped to.
Job 14

13 “Oh, that You would hide me in the grave,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past,
That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again?
All the days of my hard service I will wait,
Till my change comes.
15 You shall call, and I will answer You;
You shall desire the work of Your hands.​

...after resurrection.

Yes. I look forward to this.
Psalm 17:15 As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness; when I awake, I will be satisfied in Your presence.

 

[The Disciple John]

Revelation 20:10 KJV
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The devil is tossed into a symbol to be tormented forever and ever? And again . . . Hell and the Lake of Fire are not the same.



Symbolic torment? And this does not seem like stretching it out a bit? It does to me.

Much love!

Symbolic fire; symbolic smoke; symbolic torment. Why not?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Symbolic fire; symbolic smoke; symbolic torment. Why not?

Symbolic of what? What is torment a symbol of?

 

[BarneyFife]

If you are unwilling to take the solemn words of Christ to heart in that one passage, you will not be satisfied with 100 passages. Naysayers are never satisfied with Scripture.

What's a "naysayer?" Somebody who doesn't agree with you?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It turns out . . . your book is available on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/HELL-IF-KNOW/dp/1609579836

Way cool!

Much love!

No, it's out of print. They would place the order with Xulon Press and find out that it is no longer available. Maybe a used copy?
I still have boxes left - to hand out copies when the world starts looking like the front cover ... we are geting close.

 

[BarneyFife]

One who claims the lake of fire to be a literal fire, is ignoring the fact that the lake of fire is symbolic,

I think it goes without saying.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Personally, I don't think this looks at this from the correct direction.

He who suffered has ceased from sin, wrote Peter. He wrote this as a maxim. IF in fact the souls of men were created "durable", made to last, and God let's continue what He created - maybe there is actually some reason why He created us a certain way, and that certain way means we don't stop "being" - then when the time comes to put sin away from everything, eternal suffering has the benefit of removing sin from the unrepentant.

If people last forever, and there will be a new creation where there is no sin, then you have to address the question of how the unrepentant don't sin. This answers that question.

Much love!

Sounds like purgatory or universalism, where everyone gets saved. Sounds better than destruction but then Christ promiaed life to those who believe only. Once you die, your state is fixed, your judgment is fixed. It probably was during their lives.

 

[Brakelite]

The deep question!

I've given this a lot of thought, and to me it comes down to the last line of your post. "Yet I know that I am born from above."

Romans 8:15-17 KJV
15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Even if we cannot point to some fully formed doctrine, even if we cannot list our array of good works, how do we know we are born from above? And how do we know we are not self-deluded?

We know that if we are in fact born from above, that the Holy Spirit will be testifying with our spirit that we are children of God, it will happen.

We hunger for God. We hunger for righteousness. We fear His displeasure. We cling to Him. In short, we are different inside, and we know it. We remember who we were before Christ made us alive, and we see the difference between that death we were in, and this new life found in Christ. We have a sense of wrongness about sin that wasn't there before. We have an awareness of sin far beyond what we had.

There was a friend of mine on a forum many years ago, who liked to ask people, have you been born again long enough to be certain that you are?

We have received the Spirit of adoption whereby we cry, Abba! Father!

By the Holy Spirit, we cry . . . Without Him, we do not cry out, Abba! Father! BY Him, we do, as long as I've meditated on this passage, I still cannot find the dividing line between the Spirit of God, and my spirit, this is how united we are.

God's given me some incredible gifts that have reassured me, and I still have to reflect back on certain times sometimes to reassure myself. We are all the same!

You've maybe heard the parable, you only find the strength of the tea when you put it in hot water. You find the strength of your faith when it is tested. Living in the valleys - I have a lot of them too - shows us that when we need something, we turn to Him. And even if we have a season of bitterness, yet still we know, it's just not the same as it was before.

Or the short answer . . . I really do believe Jesus rose from the dead, and I really do believe He is Lord of all, and Lord of me, and I freely declare this. So God said I'd be saved. Must be true!

Much love!

I hear it said by others, that character isn't formed in a crisis, but revealed. I'm still wrestling somewhat with that, for similar to what you are saying, it seems that experientially, crisis come along to compel us to lengths and heights of maturity heretofore never experienced. Maybe there's a bit of both. The crisis reveals our lack of preparedness and maturity, at least in those crisis that seriously test our limits. When we realize our limitations, we go back to the Word for further refinement.

 

[Brakelite]

That’s a good verse. Examine yourself to see if you really ARE in trust.

In trust. Mmm. Sounds more challenging and intrusive than 'in faith'.