James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, if you are not going to explain Romans 4:3, and Romans 4:9-12, we are done with this discussion, my friend.

You just replied to the thread where I did. ??

In any case, I will be glad to do as you ask with other Scriptures, as well as other points you have made. Vers by verse and point by point.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge the first works of obedience, that begin with purifying the heart, is baffling.

Are you seeking to do the righteousness of God outwardly, without first doing so within the heart?

Is your heart still not pure from lust of the world and flesh? Are you seeking to love God with a whole unclean heart?

I believe we must obey with a pure heart. Nowhere did I say we must obey with an unclean heart. Nowhere did I suggest otherwise. So you are putting forth some kind of wild goose chase to divert away from the actual discussion here.

After a person is convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin (John 16:8-9) and they respond with a pure heart (or right heart intention of wanting to obey God): I believe the Bible teaches we can obey God in relation to our believing the gospel message (Romans 10:14, Romans 10:16, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Our genuine responding to this gospel message is a part of being saved initially by God’s grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Ephesians 2:1). After one is born again spiritually and has a new heart (from being saved by God’s grace): I also believe we can also obey God genuinely in the Sanctification Process by the working of the Spirit of God (1 Peter 1:2) (Romans 8:13).

Again, if you don’t believe that there are two aspects of salvation that believer’s have a responsibility to obey (out of a pure heart), then you need to explain or provide a commentary on Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6, and Romans 4:1-12.

If you are not doing that, we are simply wasting each others time here. You want to go off on some kind wild goose chase so as to divert away from the real heart of the matter here. If you keep repeating your point on obedience, I will simply move on and ignore what you have to say. Explain and or prove your belief is true (not just to convince me but others) that your belief is actually genuine or true by giving a commentary on Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6, and Romans 4:1-12. If you don’t do so, I will take that to mean you cannot give a commentary because the words of the Bible simply does not support what you actually believe here.

 

[robert derrick]

Repeating what I already explained to you.

Therefore babies are saved without the gospel. They are saved because they were never separated from God because of sin.
Adults need the gospel because we are sinners. Our sins separate us from God, Isaiah 59:2.

Thank you. That says it very well. I have been doubting the old tradition that souls are born into the world with sin, which really is not true. They are born in sinful flesh, but not with sin.

Every soul is made the same as that of the first Adam: a living soul by the breath of God, which we read is in the lowest parts of the earth.

The soul is immediately wrapped in sinful flesh conceived in the womb of man and woman. There are only two souls that were not clothed in sinful flesh at their beginning on earth: the first and second Adam.

The soul does not die, until the soul sins after the flesh. Also, judgment of God is only for the works done by our souls in our natural bodies.

So, the only question remaining is the future of the souls that had not yet sinned in the flesh on earth. What do you say?

It is irrelevant how other religions define works. We only obey the law of Christ. We let Jesus' gospel define works that are involved in salvation. Not jews!

Amen and amen!

As a already taught you, by the example of the thief on the cross, No one is saved by Jesus without an obedient desire to serve Him.

And Amen again. There is no faith that is not obeying the faith of Jesus. There is no faith first before and apart from obeying the faith, even as there is no substance of faith first before and apart from the evidence of faith: the substance and evidence of faith are one, even as the Father and the Son are one.

The only thing that is first with faith, is obeying the faith first within the heart, that the outside of the platter may also come clean through obeying the faith bodily.

Jesus knew her heart. What did He say to her? Go and sin no more. No one was saved by just believing Jesus but not repenting of sins.

You are nailing it. There is no 'mystery' about eternal salvation being only for them that obey Him, except when man preaches being saved by faith only first, before and apart from obeying Jesus. The reason being, they all overlook and disregard obedience within the heart first, to cleanse the platter of lust and thoughts for sins of the flesh:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

They also are blind to the fact that we cannot possibly obey God without His faith, because without faith it is impossible to please God. No man believes God without obeying Him, and no man obeys God without believing Him.

That's your imagination that he was saved without Godly sorrow without an obedient heart, for his sins against God. You have zero scripture to support he was not obedient prior to becoming a thief.

True. Being saved by grace 'without works' is the hypocrite's cry for salvation by grace without repentance from dead works. They add 'without works' to the Scripture.

Grace is only given for help in time of need to repent and to overcome sin. Grace is not a mystical all-covering of sins from the eyes of God.

Also, these examples you give for supposed faith only salvation are all conveniently BEFORE Jesus' gospel was in force!

Excellent. If that thief went to Abraham's bosom, it is because he did so the same way as all others of the OT, by believing to obey the Lord God with the heart. And if repentance of heart occurs on a cross, then it is never too late to spend the rest of our life on earth believing and obeying Him.

The worst errors made with Scripture, is failure to know the difference between Old covenant and law of Moses with New covenant and law of Christ, which was not until He paid the price for sins upon His own soul and rose from the dead for our justification.

Necessary inference. If Paul teaches you must have faith to be saved, 1Corinthians 15:1-4. Then it must be inferred that faith is included with other verses that do not directly mention faith, Example, Paul commands everyone to repent, Acts 17:30-31. To understand the Bible, it must be inferred that Faith is also a requirement to be saved.

All too true. All Scripture must be accounted for when teaching any doctrine of Scripture. Someone reads salvation by grace through faith, and they end it there, except to add 'without works', and so they either reject being justified by works, or they spend eternity trying to get around it.

As in the author of this thread.

Stop cherry picking out faith verses.

Well said. there are faith verses and there are works verses, and all verses must be accounted for and reconciled to teach the truth of Scripture. (Not that Scripture needs reconciling, except only when men mishandle and wrest it.)

Paul's gospel includes water immersion to be saved.

I would say water baptism is obeyed as any other commandment of Christ: with an obedient heart to do all things as unto the Lord:

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

The error is the 'once saved' mentality, which is not true. The truth is we are being saved unto the end of the race. If we race not and endure to the end, then being saved ends with it. Eternal salvation is only obtained by them that obey Him unto the end.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

As by necessary inference, we know that salvation shall be obtained at the end, and so the Scripture is saying we are being saved: we are saved by grace, so long as we are obeying Him by grace. There is no confirming Scripture of 'was saved once for all' while on earth.

And so, if someone claiming Christ is not wilfully water baptized, it proves a heart not yet converted by obedience to the faith, either by being neglectful or by rebellion.

Paul's gospel includes water immersion with being saved.

I'm glad I saw your post, Titus.

 

[robert derrick]

I believe we must obey with a pure heart. Nowhere did I say we must obey with an unclean heart. Nowhere did I suggest otherwise. So you are putting forth some kind of wild goose chase to divert away from the actual discussion here.

After a person is convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin (John 16:8-9) and they respond with a pure heart (or right heart intention of wanting to obey God): I believe the Bible teaches we can obey God in relation to our believing the gospel message (Romans 10:14, Romans 10:16, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Our genuine responding to this gospel message is a part of being saved initially by God’s grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Ephesians 2:1). After one is born again spiritually and has a new heart (from being saved by God’s grace): I also believe we can also obey God genuinely in the Sanctification Process by the working of the Spirit of God (1 Peter 1:2) (Romans 8:13).

Again, if you don’t believe that there are two aspects of salvation that believer’s have a responsibility to obey (out of a pure heart), then you need to explain or provide a commentary on Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6, and Romans 4:1-12.

If you are not doing that, we are simply wasting each others time here. You want to go off on some kind wild goose chase so as to divert away from the real heart of the matter here. If you keep repeating your point on obedience, I will simply move on and ignore what you have to say. Explain and or prove your belief is true (not just to convince me but others) that your belief is actually genuine or true by giving a commentary on Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6, and Romans 4:1-12. If you don’t do so, I will take that to mean you cannot give a commentary because the words of the Bible simply does not support what you actually believe here.

So, you did see my efforts on the Scriptures in Romans 4 you overlooked? Right? You are free to respond to them.

I believe we must obey with a pure heart.

Which begins first within the heart.

After a person is convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin (John 16:8-9) and they respond with a pure heart (or right heart intention of wanting to obey God)

Or the right heart and fact of obeying God to purify and cleanse the heart of lust and temptation to sin.

You simply overlook the necessary spiritual warfare of quenching the fiery darts of the devil upon arrival: DOA.

All obedience to God is by faith and spiritual, beginning in the heart.

Again, if you don’t believe that there are two aspects of salvation that believer’s have a responsibility to obey (out of a pure heart),

Our first responsibility to obey is within the heart to purify it, that we may obey and call upon Him out of a pure heart.

If you are not doing that, we are simply wasting each others time here. You want to go off on some kind wild goose chase so as to divert away from the real heart of the matter here.

The real matter is you are wilfully blind to the first works of obeying God within the heart, before we can ever obey Him with the body.

You do so, in order to keep your pet 'two aspects' theory, which is undermined by the fact there is no 'temporal' time between believing and obeying God, since it begins first within the heart.

But no matter. I will no longer try to unblind you. I will now go on to answering all your points and scriptures you desire. Keeping in mind I have already done so in part with Rom 4 in Post 658. You somehow missed it when replying to it.

Ephesians 2:8-9:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Since we are justified by works of faith in Christ, then the works condemned here are works of man's own righteousness, not by the faith of Jesus, but by their own personal faith of will, which does not save any man, because it does not please God.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Since justification is by works, then we see that being justified by grace is not through faith only, but only with works of faith.

And since we cannot be saved without being justified, then we are being saved and justified by grace through faith with works.

We cannot exclude works from salvation through faith by grace, unless we want to exclude justification with works by grace.

We are being saved and justified by grace through the faith of Jesus that obeys Him within the heart and without:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

If eternal salvation begins with faith only, then it ends with faith only.

Romans 11:6

I have also given you commentary on this verse, which you also seemed to have missed. But I will do so again, because I enjoy it.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The Scripture is on how God chooses His people: By grace and not by works of men.

This Scripture is in context of Christians being not highminded about being elect of God. It is a reminded that even with the elect that believe and obey God with a pure heart, it is only by grace and help of God's power that we do so.

The elect cannot boast of their pure hearted lives of righteousness, any more than the unbelieving Jews boasted of their self righteousness.

The election is by grace, and the elect doers of His righteousness only do so by grace, so we should not be highminded in our selves, lest we also be broken off.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

 

[robert derrick]

1 John 3:18 is not talking about Initial Salvation but it is talking to believers who have already been saved by God’s grace. So this verse cannot be used to prove your point here, my friend. You need clear 100% proof that believers are saved by doing a laborous action or work in being initially saved. Do you believe water baptism is salvific? If so… that really does not match up with many verses; Especially 1 Corinthians 1:17. See the end half of my post #517 on my explanation for this verse.

You need clear 100% proof that believers are saved by doing a laborious action or work in being initially saved.

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Pleasing God is not laborious. These works you speak of are of man, not of God. You are carnal minded in your doctrine.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

There is no love of God before and apart from keeping His commandments, beginning with the first commandment within the heart, to love Him with all the heart.

Where there is no keeping of His commandants, beginning with the first in the heart, there is no love of God at all.

Where there is no love of God, there is no faith of God to be saved by.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Eating and drinking of Christ is not by faith only, but is only by doing it: a work of faith and obedience to God.

There is no life in them that are not obeying Him within the heart, and so there is no salvation for them with faith only.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Hearing the knock is not opening the door. Opening to Jesus standing at the door is only by doing it: a work of faith and obedience to God within the heart.

There is no fellowship with Jesus to sup with Him in the heart, where there is no obedience to His voice to open the door to Him.

Where there is no fellowship with Jesus, there is no salvation by Jesus. Faith only is hearing only, but not opening the door to Him.

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The Spirit of God is only given to them that obey Him within the heart. Without being born of the Spirit, we cannot become sons of God.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is no eternal salvation for them not obeying God, and so there is no salvation for them with faith only, before and apart from obeying Him.

Until we first obey God within the heart to cleanse the inside of the platter, we are not keeping His commandment, we are not eating and drinking of Him, we are not opening the door to Him, we are not receiving His Spirit, nor are we obtaining eternal salvation.

Those with faith only before and apart from obeying Him, have no love of God, have no Life of God, have no fellowship with God, have no Spirit of God, and have no salvation of God.

Your first aspect is faith only salvation, which is really really dead.

Do you believe water baptism is salvific?

Like all commandments of God, theya re all 'salvific', because if we obey Him not, we are not being saved, nor shall we inherit everlasting life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You need clear 100% proof that believers are saved by doing a laborious action or work in being initially saved.

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Pleasing God is not laborious. These works you speak of are of man, not of God. You are carnal minded in your doctrine.

Notice how Jesus says that the Son of Man shall GIVE unto his listeners the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

The word meat is an archaic English 1600’s word meaning food.

Source:
King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - Meat
(Note: KingJamesBibleDictionary website has been down lately; And is only accessible via by the WayBackMachine).

Jesus Himself said He is the bread of life.

“And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” (John 6:35).

This is the food (meat) that He is to give to them.

Jesus says that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him, may have everlasting life.

John 6:40 KJV
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Nothing about works here.

When Jesus said that the work of God is to believe it does not mean that our believing is a work we do. The work of God is from God. The work of God in our believing in Jesus is the result of God the Father drawing us to Jesus (John 6:44). Without this drawing or work from God… we could not believe in Jesus.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

There is no love of God before and apart from keeping His commandments, beginning with the first commandment within the heart, to love Him with all the heart.

Where there is no keeping of His commandants, beginning with the first in the heart, there is no love of God at all.

Where there is no love of God, there is no faith of God to be saved by.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Eating and drinking of Christ is not by faith only, but is only by doing it: a work of faith and obedience to God.

There is no life in them that are not obeying Him within the heart, and so there is no salvation for them with faith only.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Hearing the knock is not opening the door. Opening to Jesus standing at the door is only by doing it: a work of faith and obedience to God within the heart.

There is no fellowship with Jesus to sup with Him in the heart, where there is no obedience to His voice to open the door to Him.

Where there is no fellowship with Jesus, there is no salvation by Jesus. Faith only is hearing only, but not opening the door to Him.

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The Spirit of God is only given to them that obey Him within the heart. Without being born of the Spirit, we cannot become sons of God.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is no eternal salvation for them not obeying God, and so there is no salvation for them with faith only, before and apart from obeying Him.

Until we first obey God within the heart to cleanse the inside of the platter, we are not keeping His commandment, we are not eating and drinking of Him, we are not opening the door to Him, we are not receiving His Spirit, nor are we obtaining eternal salvation.

Those with faith only before and apart from obeying Him, have no love of God, have no Life of God, have no fellowship with God, have no Spirit of God, and have no salvation of God.

Your first aspect is faith only salvation, which is really really dead.

You are taking James 2:24 too far again. Nowhere does James refer to Initial Salvation in James 2:24. Paul clearly refers to how we are saved by God’s grace through faith without works in Ephesians 2:8-9. You think this is in reference to man directed works, but Ephesians 2:10 says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. Paul is concerned here about how the Ephesian believers HAD been saved (Past tense). They had been quickened (made alive) (Ephesians 2:1). How many times have you been quickened? We are saved by God’s grace like a gift (Ephesians 2:8). How many times do you receive a gift? Just one time, right? So you seem to trivialize or deny Initial Salvation that Paul clearly teaches.

Side Note:

I see the laboring aspect in trying to find the Lord (John 6:27).

Jeremiah 29:13 says,
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

The Son of Man shall give them the food (meat) He is the bread of life for them to believe in. This laboring could also be a reference to John 6:45 whereby those Jews who have learned of the Father (Jews who honestly followed and studied God’s Word) will be drawn by the Father to Jesus (Whereby they would believe in Him as their Savior). So this laboring here is not really initial salvation but a seeking to find the Lord or the Messiah (Savior). Initial Salvation happens when a person believes in Jesus for everlasting life. This is simply what the Bible plainly teaches but you distort it to make “belief” out to be a “work.” We are initially saved by God’s grace without works, and ONLY THEN can we walk in the work of God (and not before). You are putting the cart before the horse, my friend. You are denying salvation by God’s grace through faith without works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you believe water baptism is salvific?

Like all commandments of God, theya re all 'salvific', because if we obey Him not, we are not being saved, nor shall we inherit everlasting life.

That’s not exactly true.

Here are…

Sins Not Unto Death:

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not trying to trivialize sin. I believe after we are saved by God's grace that we must live holy as a part of God's plan of salvation. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Believers cannot justify sin that leads to spiritual death, condemnation, or hellfire. For I believe we should obey the Lord in all things. For I want to stress that there are grievous sins (or death sins) like murder, hate, adultery, lying, etc. that can lead even a believer to being condemned in the Lake of Fire if such sins are not repented of (i.e. if these sins are not confessed or forsaken).

Anyways,...

​

Here is my biblical case for sins that do not lead unto death:

​

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."

In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them (so as to overcome them), the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Paul ignores the warnings of the Spirit and Psalms 19:12.
Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. The Least of These Commands in Matthew 5:19.
We know that 1 John 5:16-17 declares that there is a sin not unto death. So if this is the case, we should expect to see other testimonies of this kind of thing in God's Word.

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19).
​

This was said by the Lord Jesus at the sermon on the mount. Jesus was not referring to the 613 Torah laws but He was referring to the New Commands He was giving at the sermon on the mount, etc.; Granted, I am not encouraging anyone to break the Lord's commands (even the commands that do not appear to be a major violation of loving God and others), but our Lord's words have to still hold true in Matthew 5:19. Meaning, there are going to be believers who are in the Kingdom and they taught others that they could break the least of Jesus' commandments. How can they be in the kingdom?

Anyways, what could be a possible least command that Jesus is referring to? Well, one possible example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12. For it does not seem like a major violation of loving God and others if we fail to obey this instruction.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#5. Punishment of sins in earthly courts vs. a sin that leads to hellfire (Matthew 5:22). Jesus described to us the difference between death-sins vs. non-death sins in Matthew 5:22.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (AMP).
​

The words in blue above are “non-death sins” because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a “death sin” because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife.

#6. Accidental manslaughter and being able to flee to cities of refuge (Deuteronomy 19:1-13); Contrast this with intentional murder which results in capital punishment (See: Deuteronomy 19:21, Numbers 35:31).

#7. Adam’s Inherited Sin (Involving babies that die).
I believe Adam’s Inherited Sin Leads all mankind to physically die. Adam’s sin also opened the door for all men and women to fall into spiritual death and condemnation. But we know according to Scripture and the goodness of God that if a baby dies in this world, they are saved. For King David knew that he would see his unborn child again (2 Samuel 12:23), and Jesus says that children are of the Kingdom of God (Luke 18:16). So how are they saved if Adam brought death? Well, Jesus reversed the curse of spiritual death involving the sin of Adam. The Promised Messiah was the promise of God of salvation to men. So if a baby dies, they will be saved. God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus died for our sins because God loves us. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But the point here is that if babies are saved, and they are doomed to die physically at some point in their life (either as a baby or an adult) by Adam’s sin, we should realize that the stain of spiritual death from Adam did not take hold onto the lives of babies because of the Messiah. So the sin of Adam passing down spiritual death does not harm a baby. It’s a sin not unto death. Now, the fallen nature was passed down, and thus when that baby grows up, they will sin when they are faced with the knowledge of good and evil. But this is why Jesus came. To set the captives free from sin and death. For Jesus not only came to forgive our sins, but He came to give us a new heart, and new desires to live a new life in Him. A life that is not enslaved to grievous sin that brings spiritual death. Side Note: Now, did spiritual death take hold upon Adam? I believe it did because God said that he would die in the day he would eat of the tree (he was commanded to not eat). Did Adam drop dead physically when he ate of the wrong tree? Surely not. So this means Adam died spiritually. Also, I believe the promise of the Messiah Jesus reversed the curse of Adam. For Jesus took on our sins in the Garden and died in our place for our sins. This was spiritual. So if Jesus never died for our sins, all of mankind would be doomed spiritually (including babies that die). Jesus is the Savior. Jesus deserves all the glory.

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I am not Catholic or Orthodox. No offense to anyone Catholic or Orthodox, but I find such churches to be repulsive because the Bible teaches we are to trust in God’s Word (the Bible) alone (2 Timothy 3:16-17) + the Anointing to Understand It (1 John 2:27).

 

[robert derrick]

Notice how Jesus says that the Son of Man shall GIVE unto his listeners the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

The word meat is an archaic English 1600’s word meaning food.

Source:
King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - Meat
(Note: KingJamesBibleDictionary website has been down lately; And is only accessible via by the WayBackMachine).

Jesus Himself said He is the bread of life.

“And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” (John 6:35).

This is the food (meat) that He is to give to them.

Jesus says that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him, may have everlasting life.

John 6:40 KJV
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Nothing about works here.

When Jesus said that the work of God is to believe it does not mean that our believing is a work we do. The work of God is from God. The work of God in our believing in Jesus is the result of God the Father drawing us to Jesus (John 6:44). Without this drawing or work from God… we could not believe in Jesus.



You are taking James 2:24 too far again. Nowhere does James refer to Initial Salvation in James 2:24. Paul clearly refers to how we are saved by God’s grace through faith without works in Ephesians 2:8-9. You think this is in reference to man directed works, but Ephesians 2:10 says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. Paul is concerned here about how the Ephesian believers HAD been saved (Past tense). They had been quickened (made alive) (Ephesians 2:1). How many times have you been quickened? We are saved by God’s grace like a gift (Ephesians 2:8). How many times do you receive a gift? Just one time, right? So you seem to trivialize or deny Initial Salvation that Paul clearly teaches.

Side Note:

I see the laboring aspect in trying to find the Lord (John 6:27).

Jeremiah 29:13 says,
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

The Son of Man shall give them the food (meat) He is the bread of life for them to believe in. This laboring could also be a reference to John 6:45 whereby those Jews who have learned of the Father (Jews who honestly followed and studied God’s Word) will be drawn by the Father to Jesus (Whereby they would believe in Him as their Savior). So this laboring here is not really initial salvation but a seeking to find the Lord or the Messiah (Savior). Initial Salvation happens when a person believes in Jesus for everlasting life. This is simply what the Bible plainly teaches but you distort it to make “belief” out to be a “work.” We are initially saved by God’s grace without works, and ONLY THEN can we walk in the work of God (and not before). You are putting the cart before the horse, my friend. You are denying salvation by God’s grace through faith without works.

Nothing about works here.

He gives His meat to those who eat it: eating is doing that takes work.

Try eating your food by faith only.

When Jesus said that the work of God is to believe it does not mean that our believing is a work we do. The work of God is from God.

Try believing without working at it in your heart to obey God and keep your heart pure. Which of course is what you try to do, isn't it?

Works work with faith to perfect faith. We work at believing by obeying Him.

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith doesn't wrought anything alone without works, especially not salvation and justification of God.

Without this drawing or work from God… we could not believe in Jesus.

True. And until we cannot believe Jesus without obeying Jesus; otherwise, we are only agreeing He is christ, but not obeying Him as Lord.

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Faith effectually works in them that are effectually working with His faith to obey Him.

Try obeying Jesus to eat His flesh without working at it with your teeth.

Nowhere does James refer to Initial Salvation in James 2:24.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Paul clearly refers to how we are saved by God’s grace through faith 'without works'.

You take away Scripture of salvation in James pertaining to works, and you add to Scripture of salvation in Paul pertaining to faith.

It takes both faith and works to please God and be justified with Him.

Your doctrine of being saved without being justified is OSAS false.

So this laboring here is not really initial salvation but a seeking to find the Lord or the Messiah (Savior).

And once finding, we labor to please Him within the heart and without. There is no carnal temporal time difference between believing and laboring to purify the heart.

Initial Salvation happens when a person believes in Jesus for everlasting life.

Salvation doesn't just 'happen', it is obtained, even as His flesh is obtained by eating of him, without which we have no life.

You tried eating your food by faith only yet?

you distort it to make “belief” out to be a “work.”

And you make obeying out to not being a work.

Believing is working when the faith is obeyed.

We are initially saved by God’s grace 'without works'.

Adding to Scripture again and again.

and ONLY THEN can we walk in the work of God (and not before).

Only then can we walk bodily with Jesus, and not before working with Him to purify our hearts.

Until we purify within first, our bodily good works are filthy rags to God

You are putting the cart before the horse, my friend.

The horse is purifying the heart, and the cart is obeying Him bodily with a pure heart.

You are teaching doing good bodily with an unclean horse, which is self righteousness which you have done, and is rejected by Scripture in Paul.

You are denying salvation by God’s grace through faith without works.

Yes, I am. Thank you. I reject you adding to Scripture:

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Your little pet 1st aspect theory is silly.

And it leaves lust in the hearts of them who would be saved, but are led astray into seeking to be justified by works of man righteousness from an unclean heart.

 

[robert derrick]

That’s not exactly true.

Here are…

Sins Not Unto Death:

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not trying to trivialize sin. I believe after we are saved by God's grace that we must live holy as a part of God's plan of salvation. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Believers cannot justify sin that leads to spiritual death, condemnation, or hellfire. For I believe we should obey the Lord in all things. For I want to stress that there are grievous sins (or death sins) like murder, hate, adultery, lying, etc. that can lead even a believer to being condemned in the Lake of Fire if such sins are not repented of (i.e. if these sins are not confessed or forsaken).

Anyways,...

​

Here is my biblical case for sins that do not lead unto death:

​

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."

In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them (so as to overcome them), the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Paul ignores the warnings of the Spirit and Psalms 19:12.
Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. The Least of These Commands in Matthew 5:19.
We know that 1 John 5:16-17 declares that there is a sin not unto death. So if this is the case, we should expect to see other testimonies of this kind of thing in God's Word.

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19).​

This was said by the Lord Jesus at the sermon on the mount. Jesus was not referring to the 613 Torah laws but He was referring to the New Commands He was giving at the sermon on the mount, etc.; Granted, I am not encouraging anyone to break the Lord's commands (even the commands that do not appear to be a major violation of loving God and others), but our Lord's words have to still hold true in Matthew 5:19. Meaning, there are going to be believers who are in the Kingdom and they taught others that they could break the least of Jesus' commandments. How can they be in the kingdom?

Anyways, what could be a possible least command that Jesus is referring to? Well, one possible example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12. For it does not seem like a major violation of loving God and others if we fail to obey this instruction.​

That’s not exactly true.

Yes it is.

We know that 1 John 5:16-17 declares that there is a sin not unto death. So if this is the case, we should expect to see other testimonies of this kind of thing in God's Word.

A sin not unto death is any sin confessed and repented of. And any unrepented sin unto death is of the devil unto hell.

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That's all foriegn to Jesus gospel.
The works in Jesus gospel are not meritorious in nature.
No one works themselves into heaven.

I kinda of remember you from Christian Forums.
You are the one that teaches salvation can be forfeited.
OSAS is unbiblical.

I'm New Testament Christian if you remember me.

Its impossible to be saved without works.
Do you believe we are saved without any kind of works?

If you do then, how can you not see your contradiction in your theology?

You say we are not saved by works ie saved without works.

Then you say if we do not do works we will be lost ie after saved without works.

That doesn't make logical sense

If God soared not the angels that sinned is a warning for humans by Peter of falling away and ending up in the lake of fire. Peter was talking to Christian’s

 

[LoveofTruth]

What an arrogant thing to say to someone you know nothing about!

I am well aware of the word baptismos.
I am well aware of Hebrews 9:10
Concerned only with foods and drinks, various baptismos, and fleshly ordinances.....


You need to go to a Greek scholar and ask him the difference between
Baptizo and Baptismos

They are NOT the same word.

Baptismo is never used in any of the baptism in Jesus' gospel. Not once!

Acts 2:38 baptizo
Mark 16:25-16 baptizo
1Peter 3:20-21 baptizo
Acts 22 :16 baptizo
Acts 8:12. baptizo
Etc.

Jesus's baptism in Mark 16:15-16 is unanimous accepted by best Greek scholars as baptizo ie water immersion.

You have mistranslated alot of passages.

Acts 8:38
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the water and he baptizo him.

Just a verse before I address the many things you say to add water baptism to the gospel

consider the verse the washing of water by the word , this does not refer to water baptism

consider Jesus words

“ John 15: 3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”

we are born again by the word of God, the engraftment word that is able to save the soul

 

[LoveofTruth]

What an arrogant thing to say to someone you know nothing about!

I am well aware of the word baptismos.
I am well aware of Hebrews 9:10
Concerned only with foods and drinks, various baptismos, and fleshly ordinances.....


You need to go to a Greek scholar and ask him the difference between
Baptizo and Baptismos

They are NOT the same word.

Baptismo is never used in any of the baptism in Jesus' gospel. Not once!

Acts 2:38 baptizo
Mark 16:25-16 baptizo
1Peter 3:20-21 baptizo
Acts 22 :16 baptizo
Acts 8:12. baptizo
Etc.

Jesus's baptism in Mark 16:15-16 is unanimous accepted by best Greek scholars as baptizo ie water immersion.

You have mistranslated alot of passages.

Acts 8:38
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the water and he baptizo him.

You are wrong here about the word in Hebrews 9:10 not being connected with water baptism read Hebrews 6:2. Same Greek word used

Heb 6:2 - Of the doctrine of baptisms, G909 and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

water baptism is not needed for Christian’s today. It is also not part of the gospel .to know what the saving gospel is read 1Cor. 15:1-5 and see no water baptism added or circumcision or the Mosaic law or Sabbaths etc

 

[LoveofTruth]

This is the same kind of problem people have when they don’t understand the Trinity. Some people cannot just understand that the Lord our God is one God and yet He also exists as three distinct persons. I have seen it tons of times. There was even a Christian I talked with before who accepts the belief of the Trinity but yet he does not understand it (even though I explained it to him). This is because God's truths are spiritually discerned.

Anyways, I believe what I do because that is what the Bible teaches. Otherwise you have a Bible that contradicts itself. For Paul predominantly teaches salvation by grace without works, and yet James predominantly teaches salvation by works and not by faith alone. There are those who make it all about works like the Church of Christ, and then there are folks who make it all about a belief alone in Jesus + nothing else like many Sola Fide Protestant churches. Funny, how those who believe in Works Alone Salvationism have a hard time with what Paul says (and in some cases, they outright reject the writings of Paul like the Ebionites). Then there are those who hold to Perpetual Belief Alone-ism and they have a hard time accepting the words of James (and there are those like Luther who called the book of James an epistle of straw). Each side (Works Alone Salvationists & Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists) tries to undo the other side of the Bible in some way. They have not tried to reconcile both Paul and James so that they both speak as being fully true. This thread itself is a testimony of how one side does not like what James says (So they decided to create a work around explanation that does not give James his do in what he plainly says). I believe you do the same with the apostle Paul. How do you explain Romans 11:6? You cannot in good conscience give the apostle Paul his do in what he plainly says in this verse and many others.

Romans 11:6 says,
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

Please give me a word for word commentary on this verse and how you believe in it.
What does grace mean to you? How is it no more works if it is by grace?
I will give you my explanation in my upcoming posts (Lord willing).

God bless brother,

maybe remind him that faith without works is dead is referring to God’s works in believers for God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work Hebrew 13

the works James speaks of come from within from a believing heart where Christ dwells and work just like Christ dwelt in Abraham also (Galatians 3)

 

[LoveofTruth]

So, you did see my efforts on the Scriptures in Romans 4 you overlooked? Right? You are free to respond to them.

I believe we must obey with a pure heart.

Which begins first within the heart.

After a person is convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin (John 16:8-9) and they respond with a pure heart (or right heart intention of wanting to obey God)

Or the right heart and fact of obeying God to purify and cleanse the heart of lust and temptation to sin.

You simply overlook the necessary spiritual warfare of quenching the fiery darts of the devil upon arrival: DOA.

All obedience to God is by faith and spiritual, beginning in the heart.

Again, if you don’t believe that there are two aspects of salvation that believer’s have a responsibility to obey (out of a pure heart),

Our first responsibility to obey is within the heart to purify it, that we may obey and call upon Him out of a pure heart.

If you are not doing that, we are simply wasting each others time here. You want to go off on some kind wild goose chase so as to divert away from the real heart of the matter here.

The real matter is you are wilfully blind to the first works of obeying God within the heart, before we can ever obey Him with the body.

You do so, in order to keep your pet 'two aspects' theory, which is undermined by the fact there is no 'temporal' time between believing and obeying God, since it begins first within the heart.

But no matter. I will no longer try to unblind you. I will now go on to answering all your points and scriptures you desire. Keeping in mind I have already done so in part with Rom 4 in Post 658. You somehow missed it when replying to it.

Ephesians 2:8-9:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Since we are justified by works of faith in Christ, then the works condemned here are works of man's own righteousness, not by the faith of Jesus, but by their own personal faith of will, which does not save any man, because it does not please God.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Since justification is by works, then we see that being justified by grace is not through faith only, but only with works of faith.

And since we cannot be saved without being justified, then we are being saved and justified by grace through faith with works.

We cannot exclude works from salvation through faith by grace, unless we want to exclude justification with works by grace.

We are being saved and justified by grace through the faith of Jesus that obeys Him within the heart and without:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

If eternal salvation begins with faith only, then it ends with faith only.

Romans 11:6

I have also given you commentary on this verse, which you also seemed to have missed. But I will do so again, because I enjoy it.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The Scripture is on how God chooses His people: By grace and not by works of men.

This Scripture is in context of Christians being not highminded about being elect of God. It is a reminded that even with the elect that believe and obey God with a pure heart, it is only by grace and help of God's power that we do so.

The elect cannot boast of their pure hearted lives of righteousness, any more than the unbelieving Jews boasted of their self righteousness.

The election is by grace, and the elect doers of His righteousness only do so by grace, so we should not be highminded in our selves, lest we also be broken off.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

Consider what works we do and where they originate

Hebrews 13: 20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

John 15: 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

Philippians 2: 12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Philippians 2: 12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To the Board.

GRACE and Peace...

 

[amigo de christo]

God bless brother,

maybe remind him that faith without works is dead is referring to God’s works in believers for God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work Hebrew 13

the works James speaks of come from within from a believing heart where Christ dwells and work just like Christ dwelt in Abraham also (Galatians 3)

Correct . Its as JESUS said . He who HEARS and does these sayings of mine .
A true lamb has been converted and given a new heart , wherein dwells the Holy Ghost .
We would be hearers and doers . Those who are hearers but not doers , are not truly converted unto Christ .
I should know . I was once just like that . Dead faith . I could lip his name but my heart was far from Him .
TRUE FAITH in CHRIST versus dead faith . The early church reminded the church a lot
about not being decieved . For many are as i once was , they can lip the name
and yet they follow another version of JESUS , which aint Him . Their fruits will prove who they belong too .
Plus , IF we have the SPIRIT we would also be reminding with good pure exhortations the same as did the apostels .
Its all part of the Working of the HOLY GHOST within us . THUS if men come and make void certain warnings
and reminders and say THAT dont apply and they serve an acryonm or other contrary ideals . That is a major red
flag that something is not right . For the HOLY GHOST has us to love and embrace ALL truth .
Not to make void parts of truth . No lamb has peace in false doctrines .
The problem is many do sit under men who have explained away things and taught their own precepts or acryonms .
But they do a huge error unto those who sit under them . We SHOULD not only behold the GOODNESS of GOD
but also the SEVERITY . And if you notice , the ones who overlook the severity side
well they also preach a false goodness of GOD that is not compatible to HIM at all .
Its simply safe that we learn the bible very well and test all things that all men do teach or say against that sound doctrine .

 

[LoveofTruth]

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To the Board.

GRACE and Peace...

God bless

nice to be here

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God bless brother,

maybe remind him that faith without works is dead is referring to God’s works in believers for God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work Hebrew 13

the works James speaks of come from within from a believing heart where Christ dwells and work just like Christ dwelt in Abraham also (Galatians 3)

I agree.
Thanks, brother.
Good to see you.

Great blessings be unto you in the Lord today.

 

[robert derrick]

God bless brother,

maybe remind him that faith without works is dead is referring to God’s works in believers for God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work Hebrew 13

the works James speaks of come from within from a believing heart where Christ dwells and work just like Christ dwelt in Abraham also (Galatians 3)

The works James spoke of was Abraham having physically offered up Isaac by faith from the heart.

Are you trying to distinguish between the working of God in the heart of faith, and the works of God done by faith from the heart?

If so, the only difference between works within the heart and with the body, is that of the Spirit inwardly and that of the body physically.

No man is justified without works of faith bodily, which can be seen by both God and man.

And the faith James spoke of was of that faith that saves souls, not just blesses others.

 

[robert derrick]

Consider what works we do and where they originate

Hebrews 13: 20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

John 15: 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

Philippians 2: 12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

The works we do by faith originate in the heart, where we fight against the lies the devil and temptations of the world.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

If we are not purified in heart from lust of the world, then all works we do bodily are self-righteous works of our own goodness, which do not justify us with God, for God is only pleased by works with faith in Him.