John Calvin and Calvinism.

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: With all due respect, Renniks, this is a silly statement. Everyone is born in sin and in need of salvation in Christ and therefore justification. Being a member of God's elect even before the foundation of the world just means ("just" ~ wow, as if it is some mere thing) that at some point in one's life after he or she is born, he or she will be justified and placed in Christ and therefore redeemed.

Renniks: So, how is he or she ever lost then?
I think the proper question you mean to ask ~ the one that would make sense ~ is, "Since he or she is lost (dead in sin) from birth, how is he or she then found?" And I think ~ hope ~ you can answer that question for yourself. If not, let me know, and I will be more than happy to tell you. :)

Renniks: Is he or she's future in heaven ever in doubt?
Not to God, no. And once he or she is given faith, which is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) and an assurance from God (Hebrews 11:1), then it is never again in doubt to us.

Renniks: Can anything they do or experience change it?
No. Nothing can thwart God's purposes (Job 42:2). And we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us, and neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:37-39).

Grace and peace to you, Renniks.

 

[PinSeeker]

God knows exactly who will and wont be saved.

Exactly.

We hear a whole lot about assurance, and its nothing but ego.

Well no, the faith we have is God's assurance given to us (Hebrews 11:1). It's a work of God, not our own doing but the gift of God, not a result of human works, so that no one may boast as Paul puts it (Ephesians 2:8-9), a result of His causing us to be born again to a living hope, as Peter puts it (1 Peter 1:3-5).

God knows if a person will be saved, He doesn't need any assurance.

Right, but we do, and God gives us that. If He purposes to do so. Faith is a spiritual gift, worked in us by the Holy Spirit, according to the will of the Father.

And no, we cant change God’s plans.

Right.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Exactly.


Well no, the faith we have is God's assurance given to us (Hebrews 11:1). It's a work of God, not our own doing but the gift of God, not a result of human works, so that no one may boast as Paul puts it (Ephesians 2:8-9), a result of His causing us to be born again to a living hope, as Peter puts it (1 Peter 1:3-5).


Right, but we do, and God gives us that. If He purposes to do so. Faith is a spiritual gift, worked in us by the Holy Spirit, according to the will of the Father.


Right.

Grace and peace to you.

assurance of salvation is our desire. It doesnt matter what we think about if we are saved or not. Faith is a gift from God, i agree. But assurance is nothing more than our calming our fear of judgement. The fact that the majority of so called christians arent saved is proof that His will be done. 1 john was written by john so we could have assurance, but so many prefer false assurance over condemnation. I get that people fear judgement, and i dont think having assurance is a bad thing, but i strenuously doubt peoples ability to determine if they are actually saved. Jesus said many will say Lord, Lord, and He will say i never knew you. Assurance aint proof of salvation.

 

[PinSeeker]

assurance of salvation is our desire.

Once we are saved, sure. Because still, even our belief, like everything else about us in this life, is imperfect. Before that, though, we don't think we have any need of salvation, so therefore no desire of assurance of such.

...assurance is nothing more than our calming our fear of judgement.

Faith, the assurance of God, is far more than than that, really. It's no mere thing by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not really disagreeing in principle with you, but yes, it's far more than what you say here.

Assurance aint proof of salvation.

Ah. The assurance of God ~ faith, if we are given it by God ~ most certainly is proof of salvation. We'll agree to disagree on that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Renniks]

God knows exactly who will and wont be saved. We hear a whole lot about assurance, and its nothing but ego. God knows if a person will be saved, He doesnt need any assurance. Thats a human desire. And no, we cant change God’s plans.

Of course, God knows. God doesn't cause some to be saved and some to be lost, however.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Of course, God knows. God doesn't cause some to be saved and some to be lost, however.

so you’re saying man’s free will is stronger than God’s plans??

 

[Titus]

It doesn't change. It's always about Israel and the gentiles. It's about God's grace being given to all humanity through the rebellion of the chosen nation. How ironic that Calvinism narrows that grace to a select few.

The Bible makes it clear, we are the ones who choose to be saved or lost.
God does the saving. God allows us to choose His free grace or reject His offer.


If we cannot choose to obey God, why is God longsuffering for the lost? Why is He waiting on us, if it His choice?
Romans 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering not knowing that the goodness of God, leads you to repentance?

There is no point for God to be longsuffering towards the wicked if He has determined them to be wicked and lost!

1Peter 3:20
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,
Not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.

Why is God waiting on us to come to repentance if it is not our choice?
Why be longsuffering towards a people that God Himself created before birth to rebel against God?
His longsuffering makes no sense if He chose us to be wicked.


Gods longsuffering is not eternal.
Why take vengeance on those who do not repent if He has chose them not to repent?
Why warn folks to repent if Gods sovereignty determines they cannot repent?
Again, Gods longsuffering makes no sense if our fate is already determined by Him not us.

Romans 12:9
Let love be without hypocrisy.
Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
What for? God created us to be evil.

2Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why? Why should God take vengeance on those He created to not obey Him?

If calvinism be true,
Gods longsuffering makes no sense
Gods vengeance is towards those He sovereigntly created to be that way.

The calvinist god is a confused god, that has longsuffering towards those who cannot repent, because he created them not to repent.
And takes vengeance on the innocent, for they were created to rebel, with no choice to be good or wicked, for His good pleasure.

If you ignore the doctrines of John Calvin, then Gods longsuffering makes perfect sense.
And also does His vengeance.

 

[Titus]

1John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Limited atonement is hog wash.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It doesn't change. It's always about Israel and the gentiles. It's about God's grace being given to all humanity through the rebellion of the chosen nation. How ironic that Calvinism narrows that grace to a select few.

Gods grace to teh gentiles was always His plan. He did not turn to Gentiles because of Israels sin.

Yes we limit saving grace to the elect only as the bible does!

but provenient grace or Gods daily outpouring of grace goes on the just and unjust as well as Jesus said. Otherwise no one would be alive.

 

[Titus]

Gods grace to teh gentiles was always His plan. He did not turn to Gentiles because of Israels sin.

Yes we limit saving grace to the elect only as the bible does!

but provenient grace or Gods daily outpouring of grace goes on the just and unjust as well as Jesus said. Otherwise no one would be alive.

In calvinist doctrine our sins have nothing to do with Gods love.
We are chosen by God unconditionally.
Sins are inconsequential in who is loved by the calvinist god.
That love is only given to the elites. The rest he hates and will burn in hell not based on any sin they have not repented of. But for his good pleasure.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In calvinist doctrine our sins have nothing to do with Gods love.
We are chosen by God unconditionally.
Sins are inconsequential in who is loved by the calvinist god.
That love is only given to the elites. The rest he hates and will burn in hell not based on any sin they have not repented of. But for his good pleasure.

Well I know this is hard to swallow but your last line is correct!

YOu forget that God was not obligated to save any single person! we rebelled against God not vice versa! The very fact that He made an opportunity to save some is more than anyone deserves! YOu also forget that the vast majority of the worlds population since the birth of the church has never even had a chance to repent and trust in the only thing god accepts as payment for sin. One acknowledging the Lordship of Jesus and believing that He rose from the dead. So the majority of the world has not even had a chance at salvation! And God is still perfectly just and righteous!

YOu forget or ignore verses like this:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:27-28
King James Version

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

If you are not one of Jesus sheep- you do not hear His voice!


John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


this verse shows that Gods wrath is already dwelling on unbelievers! Not will abide or maybe abide on e day- but abides!

Ephesians 1:4
King James Version

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


this verse is not a trick question or hard to understand if one has a grammar school education. We were chosen by Jesus before He created the World!

As for our sins and Gods' unconditional love- You are right! God dealt with our sin by placing them and judging them on Jesus at the cross! So now He is free to deal with the elect as His dear children. But that is not a license to sin- we need no license to sin- we sin by default! This is a license to live righteously and grow in righteousness!

As God also said:

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

He made us perfect- now He is making us holy! Oh the wonder of His unbounded love and grace for those who choose Him!

Teh depth of HIs mercy! The riches of HIs grace, that He would choose wretched sinners because of the Cross and because of Je3sus turn us into real saints!

As it is written in the OT-- "as far as the east is from the west- so far has He removed our sins from us!" He doesn't overlook our failings- He already judged them in Jesus- so now He is free to love us and work His plan in our life!

 

[Titus]

You need to better learn your own calvinist doctrine,

YOu forget that God was not obligated to save any single person! we rebelled against God not vice versa!

We rebelled against God?
Wrong Sir!
If we rebelled against God then that implies we have free will to do so!
You cannot rebel if God has sovereigntly chosen before you were born to rebel against Him.
Whose choice is it to turn to God? Man or God?
Calvinism: Man has no ability to choose to turn to God.
Therefore God is responsible for our actions.

Once again, this proves the contradictory silliness of John Calvin's mess.
You are not making sense,

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You need to better learn your own calvinist doctrine,




We rebelled against God?
Wrong Sir!
If we rebelled against God then that implies we have free will to do so!
You cannot rebel if God has sovereigntly chosen before you were born to rebel against Him.
Whose choice is it to turn to God? Man or God?
Calvinism: Man has no ability to choose to turn to God.
Therefore God is responsible for our actions.

Once again, this proves the contradictory silliness of John Calvin's mess.
You are not making sense,

It is the generic we! We sin because we by nature are sinners. That was handed down from teh only humans who had free will from the beginning. We get free will restored at salvation!

You are wrong in saying Calvinism says man has no ability to turn to God! It is the bible that teaches that!

And vomiting human reason on this page does not negate the simple verses of Scripture.

Romans 8:5-8
King James Version

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The natural man cannot please God! Period! Turning ot God pleases HIm and the natural man cannot do that in his own flesh nature!

 

[Titus]

You just contradicted yourself again!

It is the generic we! We sin because we by nature are sinners. That was handed down from teh only humans who had free will from the beginning. We get free will restored at salvation

We sin because by nature we are sinners?
Wrong!
Your god made us sin because we have no freewill.
We cannot choose to do anything.
God created us to commit sin by His choice not ours!

Dont you understand the only way I can be guilty of sin is if I can choose to sin by my freewill?

No one chose to be born totally depraved unable to do good.
God chose that not us.
He created some for destruction and some for eternal life for His good pleasure remember?

Once again calvinism is a contradicting mess,

 

[Titus]

This is what it takes to be a calvinist! You must ignore the ability to reason, with the reasoning God gave you!!!

And vomiting human reason on this page does not negate the simple verses of Scripture

Only one way to be a calvinist.
You must abandon logic and embrace insanity.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

This is what it takes to be a calvinist! You must ignore the ability to reason that God gave you!!!



Only one way to be a calvinist.
You must abandon logic and embrace insanity.

you’re missing a bigger picture. God chose who would be saved before the creation of the Universe. But at the same time, this choosing was not because of His ability to see throughout time who would and wouldnt accept His calling. That would have meant that even at the end of time, we were picked as the result of our works AKA accepting Christ. God chose who would be saved based on nothing but His glory.

every single person who ever walked this planet, except Jesus, deserves hell. Every single person. Those God chooses is not based on anything we do or dont do. So the correct response is, expect hell, but have faith that God chose you. Scary? At first i suppose, but you learn to accept that you deserve hell over time. I have at least.

 

[Titus]

you’re missing a bigger picture. God chose who would be saved before the creation of the Universe. But at the same time, this choosing was not because of His ability to see throughout time who would and wouldnt accept His calling. That would have meant that even at the end of time, we were picked as the result of our works AKA accepting Christ. God chose who would be saved based on nothing but His glory.

every single person who ever walked this planet, except Jesus, deserves hell. Every single person. Those God chooses is not based on anything we do or dont do. So the correct response is, expect hell, but have faith that God chose you. Scary? At first i suppose, but you learn to accept that you deserve hell over time. I have at least.

And you know that's where you are going.

you’re missing a bigger picture. God chose who would be saved before the creation of the Universe. But at the same time, this choosing was not because of His ability to see throughout time who would and wouldnt accept His calling. That would have meant that even at the end of time, we were picked as the result of our works AKA accepting Christ. God chose who would be saved based on nothing but His glory.

This is what I love about you Lifelong sinner, your honesty!

Yes, God sends us to hell for His glory!
It is not based on anything we do!
Because God does not allow us to choose!

Thanks. For confirming the insanity of John Calvin.

 

[Grailhunter]

you’re missing a bigger picture. God chose who would be saved before the creation of the Universe. But at the same time, this choosing was not because of His ability to see throughout time who would and wouldnt accept His calling. That would have meant that even at the end of time, we were picked as the result of our works AKA accepting Christ. God chose who would be saved based on nothing but His glory.

every single person who ever walked this planet, except Jesus, deserves hell. Every single person. Those God chooses is not based on anything we do or dont do. So the correct response is, expect hell, but have faith that God chose you. Scary? At first i suppose, but you learn to accept that you deserve hell over time. I have at least.

This is a pretty good summation of Calvinist beliefs.
The whole damnation of some individuals before the creation of anything.
The hopeless decree of damnation of which there is no escape.
The creation of beings that are more or less robots....no free will. Playing out an eternal play.
A play that Christ went through the process of horrible torture and crucifixion as only part of that play. Just for show. If people were predestined to sin....there is no offense....only the completion of God's will. So there was no real reason for Christ to die.
All of reality has no real purpose.
What good is love of God, if it is forced?
What good is faith in Christ, if it is forced?
What good is hope if it is already decided?
Can sin be evil if it is forced by God?
Is heaven a reward if you have a reservation?
People screaming in hell...being punished for something they were forced to do.

Of course all this is false. Ludacris in nature and evil in application.
But it gets worse. The overall evil of Calvinism is its supreme insult to God. They do not worship Satan but I am sure that Satan celebrates their religion, because it depicts God having the character of Satan.
A being that created all of mankind as biologicals robots. Billions to bless or billions to torture without mercy for eternity. Punished for doing things God forced them to do. With no will of their own whatever evil they committed was driven by the hand of God. Denying them free-will and no hope. Like I say it sounds like a great sci-fi flick. It is a religion of horror that stands as the worst insult to God and a trophy on Satan's shelf.

Taking innocent people that were looking for a relationship with God but instead convincing them that there is no relationship with God, just a puppet master that has enslaved all humanity.
Absolutely despicable!

 

[Renniks]

so you’re saying man’s free will is stronger than God’s plans??

Lol, no. What a silly interpretation of what I said.

 

[Renniks]

Gods grace to teh gentiles was always His plan. He did not turn to Gentiles because of Israels sin.

I didn't say he did. He used Israel's rebellion to spread the gospel, which is what I said.
Romans 9 tells us God's plan didn't fail because his own people rejected him.
Think about that a little though. If Israel is chosen how can they reject God? Israel were the elect! Obviously this election bit isn't irresistible. It's something we are through faith. Whoever accepts Jesus by faith becomes part of the elect.