CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Okay, but the subject of this thread is the original poster's ideas concerning election.
Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated
- Thread starter ByGraceThroughFaith
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Yes, that's how I understood it also. The original OP's objections pertained to the "Reformed/Calvinist" position of election, of which you asserted/suggested that the objections were against the "Reformed doctrine of election".
Calvin's views on election are perhaps more widely known and discussed (particularly with regards to double predestination of the individual within the context of supralapsarianism), but he's views are not necessarily the only view within the reformed faith. That's really what I was trying to point out and the reason I posted the video.
The most precious gift besides the atonement that God offers us, is the right to choose whether we follow him or not. If God just ordered what you or I do, he would take away this precious gift. He would not do that.
If God has ordered all things, then he would have to not only order men and women to follow him and be like him, but he would also have to order men and women to be evil and to commit cruel and inhuman atrocities, and be like satan. I do not believe this is the way it works.
If God ordered all things there would not have to be a judgement. He would just send those her ordered to be like him to heaven, and those he ordered to be like satan to hell. I do not believe this is the way he works.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Answer this question specifically: Has God ordered men and women to be evil?
And please don't respond with "This is fables!". Saying "This is Fables!" means, I'm not sure how to answer this questions so I will say "This is fables!", and see if he goes away.
Last edited:
Jesus, who is God the Son, was on our level during his life on earth, and when we are resurrected many of us will be on his level again. If we were not on his level, we could not be co-heirs with Jesus of all that the Father has. The bible says we are co-heirs with Jesus.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Okay. Let me ask it this way. Do human beings choose to believe? I don't think we do. I don't think belief is a choice we make.
In fact, "belief" is a natural born faculty of the human mind. The creator has endowed us with everything necessary to make contact with reality "the way it really is" and because of this, human beings are endowed with the ability to explore the world to gain new knowledge. We have this ability even from birth; we are prewired with the essential attributes of learning new information. Naturally, when we are shown things that are real, factual, actual and true, we believe them. We don't choose to believe, just as we don't choose to breathe.
Unbelief, on the other hand, is a matter of the will. We chose NOT to believe. Those who resist or suppress what they already know to be true are unbelievers. Unbelief is not being mistaken about something. Unbelief is knowing what is true but rather than acknowledging it as true, one suppresses that knowledge in favor of a lie.
Paul argues this point in the first chapter of Romans. In that context, he says that the world came under the grip of darkness and foolishness because human beings denied the evident truth of God's existence, unjustly suppressing that knowledge, creating gods of their own imaginations.
So then, belief is not a choice; but unbelief is a choice. God has endowed each of us with everything required to come to a knowledge of the truth. As Paul argues, the truth about God is evident in the things he created. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." They are without excuse because God has endowed them with every mental faculty necessary to come to the truth of God's existence.
God isn't punishing people for ignorance or mistakes; is punishes people for unjustly suppressing the truth. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Man knows the true nature of God because God has made it evident to them; but man chose to suppress that truth. This is why God has directed his wrath against them.
This is why your argument fails. While it is true that God has endowed human beings with the ability to believe, mankind refuses to believe. Unbelief is a willful choice to suppress the truth and mankind is under the grip of darkness because of that fact. Salvation, therefore, is not a gift granted to those who chose to believe. Salvation is a supernatural miracle whereby God frees our mind to accept the truth rather than suppress it.
You lost me. This is about God loved one man and hated another, showing that Gods Love is Sovereign and discriminate for sinners.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
opps
@brightfame52 @Gregory
Sorry about that. I thought I was responding to a question by Gregory. I apologize.
Jacob wasn't a sinner?
You asserted that God gives us the right to make a free will choice. But as we have seen, free will has nothing to do with it? Why? Because God chooses whom to save. Now you might argue that God chooses to save believers rather than unbelievers. Okay. That's right, he is saving believers rather than unbelievers. But how does one become a believer? How does one become an unbeliever? Can God change an unbeliever into a believer? What does Moses say to Israel in Deuteronomy chapter 30 about circumcised hearts? Deuteronomy 30
Last edited:
You can wrap it up in all kinds of mysticism and metaphysical jargon, but it is much simpler to me. If you can choose to deny the truth, and turn away from God, and be the son of satan, you can also choose to accept the truth, and turn to God, and be a son of God.
It is your choice.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I am very angry right now as I tried to explain something to you that you just blew off. God I'm so mad right now.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That still won't be properly understood without first understanding the old world, before Satan coveted God's throne.
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
That's not what Jesus says:
Paul echoed this same teaching in Col. 3:5-6 where he says God's wrath is going to come on everyone who disobeys Him, whether they knew what God required of them or not. It is for that reason Paul went on to tell Christians to leave the ways of this world behind. God is not going to care whether someone was doing these things in ignorance or not.
Interesting, let's forget the reformers teaching on election and see for ourselves if it is true...
Eph 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
According as he hath chosen us in him,....
This choice cannot be understood of a national one, as Israel of old were chosen by the Lord; for the persons the apostle writes to were not a nation; nor does he address all the inhabitants of Ephesus, only the saints and faithful in Christ that resided there; nor are they all intended here, if any of them.
However, not they only, since the apostle includes himself, and perhaps some others, who did not belong to that place, nor were of that country: nor does this choice regard them as a church; for though the saints at Ephesus were in a church state, yet the apostle does not write to them under that formal consideration, but as saints and faithful; nor are these persons said to be chosen to church privileges, but to grace and glory, to be holy and blameless: besides, from Eph_1:3, the apostle seems to speak of himself, and some others, who first trusted in Christ, as distinct from the believers at Ephesus, Eph_1:13, nor is this choice of persons to an office, for all that are here intended were not apostles, or pastors, or deacons: nor can it design the effectual calling, or the call of persons in time by efficacious grace; because this was before the foundation of the world, as follows:
but it intends an eternal election of particular persons to everlasting life and salvation; and which is the first blessing of grace, and the foundation one, upon which all the rest proceed, and
according to which they are dispensed; for according to predestination are calling, justification, and glorification.
The author of this choice is God, God the Father, who is distinguished from Christ, in whom this act is made; and it is according to his foreknowledge, and is an act of his grace, and is entirely sovereign: the objects of it, us, are not angels, but men, considered as unfallen with respect to the end, and as fallen with respect to the means; and these not all mankind: to choose, implies the contrary; and they that are chosen are distinguished from others, and are represented as few; nor do all men partake either of the means or end appointed in the decree of election; and yet some of all nations, Jews and Gentiles, are included in it; though none for any previous qualifications in them, as not for their good works, faith, holiness, or perseverance therein; for these are fruits and effects of election, and therefore cannot be causes or conditions of it: and this choice is made in Christ; and the persons chosen are chosen in him, and by being chosen they come to be in him; for this refers not to their openly being in him at conversion, as believers, but to their secretly being in him before time.
I have read your view on election and cannot but disagree since the doctrine of election/choice/chosen/remnant/few/...is biblical.
Should you wish to discuss let us do it one to one
I have noticed that most are very comfortable in the four gospels and to remain there...few are willing to go into the Pauline epistles. many are standing before the cross but are not willing to go THROUGH the cross.
Blessings
J.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated:
is about reconciliation.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
There is a theme that runs between these two brothers. And it's a long history.
Jacob and Esau had reconciliation the day they came together and saw each other when Jacob was on his way towards Egypt.
Esua came down from where he was and Jacob was afraid. He sent gifts to Esua which Esau declined. They both divided and went their own way.
After this their father Abraham died and they both came together to bury him.
God Gave Mt. Seir to Esau and Ar to Lot. He told Israel coming out of Egypt to leave these mountains alone, as he had given them to Esau and Lot as a poseession. And as they passed through they baught food and water from them and there was no war.
Later, under a new leader and a new administration. Word came that those from the mountains were coming to make war with Israel.
And out of FEAR, Jehosaphat gathered an army and had them slaughtered and for 3 days plundered all their goods.
2Ch 20:1 It came to pass after this also, that the children of Moab, and the children of Ammon, and with them other beside the Ammonites, came against Jehoshaphat to battle.
2Ch 20:2 Then there came some that told Jehoshaphat, saying, There cometh a great multitude against thee from beyond the sea on this side Syria; and, behold, they be in Hazazontamar, which is Engedi.
2Ch 20:3 And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.
2Ch 20:4 And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.
2Ch 20:22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.
2Ch 20:23 For the children of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of mount Seir, utterly to slay and destroy them: and when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, every one helped to destroy another.
2Ch 20:24 And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.
2Ch 20:25 And when Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much.
However... Before this:
2Ch 18:1 Now Jehoshaphat had riches and honour in abundance, and joined affinity with Ahab.
2Ch 18:2 And after certain years he went down to Ahab to Samaria. And Ahab killed sheep and oxen for him in abundance, and for the people that he had with him, and persuaded him to go up with him to Ramothgilead.
2Ch 18:3 And Ahab king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat king of Judah, Wilt thou go with me to Ramothgilead? And he answered him, I am as thou art, and my people as thy people; and we will be with thee in the war.
What war?
2Ki 3:4 And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster, and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool.
2Ki 3:5 But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel.
2Ki 3:6 And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel.
2Ki 3:7 And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses.
2Ki 3:8 And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom.
Ambushed indeed.
Wars.. always in the spring. Passover, always in the spring.
Israel was told not to meddle with Esau and Lot. But I believe they were provoked into a war by somebody stealing their sheep.
And selling them to King Jehoshaphat, which didn't keep very good compnay, in my opinion.
Then you have a lying spirit put in the mouths of the prophets to lead them into war.
False witnesses, false reports.
But in the end, it's all about reconciliation.
And it will be Abraham which brings the Jews and the Gentiles together through the bond of Faith.
As it was when Jacob and Esau came together at the burial of Abraham.
Wars and rumours of wars, but then end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
History repeats itself.
Hugs
is about reconciliation.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
There is a theme that runs between these two brothers. And it's a long history.
Jacob and Esau had reconciliation the day they came together and saw each other when Jacob was on his way towards Egypt.
Esua came down from where he was and Jacob was afraid. He sent gifts to Esua which Esau declined. They both divided and went their own way.
After this their father Abraham died and they both came together to bury him.
God Gave Mt. Seir to Esau and Ar to Lot. He told Israel coming out of Egypt to leave these mountains alone, as he had given them to Esau and Lot as a poseession. And as they passed through they baught food and water from them and there was no war.
Later, under a new leader and a new administration. Word came that those from the mountains were coming to make war with Israel.
And out of FEAR, Jehosaphat gathered an army and had them slaughtered and for 3 days plundered all their goods.
2Ch 20:1 It came to pass after this also, that the children of Moab, and the children of Ammon, and with them other beside the Ammonites, came against Jehoshaphat to battle.
2Ch 20:2 Then there came some that told Jehoshaphat, saying, There cometh a great multitude against thee from beyond the sea on this side Syria; and, behold, they be in Hazazontamar, which is Engedi.
2Ch 20:3 And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.
2Ch 20:4 And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.
2Ch 20:22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.
2Ch 20:23 For the children of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of mount Seir, utterly to slay and destroy them: and when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, every one helped to destroy another.
2Ch 20:24 And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.
2Ch 20:25 And when Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much.
However... Before this:
2Ch 18:1 Now Jehoshaphat had riches and honour in abundance, and joined affinity with Ahab.
2Ch 18:2 And after certain years he went down to Ahab to Samaria. And Ahab killed sheep and oxen for him in abundance, and for the people that he had with him, and persuaded him to go up with him to Ramothgilead.
2Ch 18:3 And Ahab king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat king of Judah, Wilt thou go with me to Ramothgilead? And he answered him, I am as thou art, and my people as thy people; and we will be with thee in the war.
What war?
2Ki 3:4 And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster, and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool.
2Ki 3:5 But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel.
2Ki 3:6 And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel.
2Ki 3:7 And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses.
2Ki 3:8 And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom.
Ambushed indeed.
Wars.. always in the spring. Passover, always in the spring.
Israel was told not to meddle with Esau and Lot. But I believe they were provoked into a war by somebody stealing their sheep.
And selling them to King Jehoshaphat, which didn't keep very good compnay, in my opinion.
Then you have a lying spirit put in the mouths of the prophets to lead them into war.
False witnesses, false reports.
But in the end, it's all about reconciliation.
And it will be Abraham which brings the Jews and the Gentiles together through the bond of Faith.
As it was when Jacob and Esau came together at the burial of Abraham.
Wars and rumours of wars, but then end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
History repeats itself.
Hugs
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
If the large crowd of people heading towards Israel were coming for war, then why would they be carrying an abundance of riches?
Wouldn't they rather be seeking to steal from those they came to make "war" with?
Just curious..
Hugs
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
Mat 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
Mat 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
And the elder shall serve the younger.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
Luk 2:6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not. (Joseph and Benjamin)
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth
2Ch 20:24 And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.
2Ch 20:25 And when Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much.
Who are the magi which came from the east following the star to the west to bring gifts?
Lot? Esau? Ishmael? The Gentiles? Cain?
Hmmm..
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Reconciliation.
Hugs
Similar threads
