Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated

[CadyandZoe]

What Paul says in Romans 9.22 is what Peter says in 2 Peter 3.9 where it is clear repentance

In Romans 2, Paul argues that God is waiting patiently for his Jewish contemporaries to repent, just as he waits for all of us to repent. Nevertheless, in Romans 9:19-23 Paul's argument is focused on a specific question: "Is God unjust?"

The rhetorical question gives voice to those who might object to Paul's gospel concerning God promise to pour out his spirit on all flesh, i.e. all Jewish flesh. This promise is found in a few places in the Hebrew scriptures. Joel 2:28-29, Deuteronomy 30:6, Ezekiel 36:25-27. Not only this, but the Lord appears to suggest that he will forgive and grant eternal life to every Jewish person living under the New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:33-34.

Paul has argued that while God made promises to Israel, he still reserves the right to elect some to mercy, and some to wrath. Not all of Jacob's descends will be granted forgiveness or eternal life. Given this teaching, Paul needs to answer why God isn't being unfair.

How would your typical Christian answer Paul's rhetorical question? Answer: God has given each human being freedom of the will. According to his prevenient grace, he has done everything he can to save human beings from sin and grant them eternal life. But he will not violate their freewill. Each person must make the decision for himself or herself. Only those who hear the gospel and respond in positive way will be saved.

This answer fails because it hasn't taken into account the fact that God's promise to bless Israel with forgiveness and eternal life involves a divine miracle, whereby God himself renders a person qualified for eternal life. Consider these two passages from the book of Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 10:6 So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.
In this instance, Moses expects his people to make the freewill choice to circumcised their own hearts and no longer remain stubborn. Blessing and favor are clear implications of this exhortation.

Deuteronomy 30:6 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
By contrast with Deuteronomy 10:6, here Moses is predicting that at some point in Jewish history, God himself will circumcise the hearts of his own people. God is going to supernaturally qualify certain people for eternal life by circumcising their hearts for them. The very moment after he circumcises their hearts, they begin to love God with all their heart and all their soul so that they might live.

Your typical Christian theologian has seemed to miss this aspect of salvation entirely. They have the whole thing backwards. They suggest that God is granting eternal life in response to a person who circumcises his own heart. When, in fact, God is granting salvation to those whom HE has already circumcised himself.

Question: Is God unfair for not doing this to everyone? Why doesn't he circumcise everyone's heart? Why doesn't he circumcise every heart in Israel?

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever dude.

Good luck ;)

Aint no luck friend, God has ordered all things. See ya at the Judgment

 

[brightfame52]

candz

In Romans 2, Paul argues that God is waiting patiently for his Jewish contemporaries to repent, just as he waits for all of us to repent.

God doesnt wait on people to repent, in fact He gives repentance and causes it Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The natural man doesnt have a repentant heart towards God, its not capable Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

The word impenitent is the greek word a/metanoētos:

1. admitting no change of mind, unrepented, impenitent
   

The natural heart of man is without repentance, and its hard to God and the things of God. God isnt waiting on dead hard hearted sinners to repent, they cant.

 

[CadyandZoe]

candz



God doesnt wait on people to repent, in fact He gives repentance and causes it Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The natural man doesnt have a repentant heart towards God, its not capable Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

The word impenitent is the greek word a/metanoētos:

1. 
   
   
   • admitting no change of mind, unrepented, impenitent

The natural heart of man is without repentance, and its hard to God and the things of God. God isnt waiting on dead hard hearted sinners to repent, they cant.

Yes, repentance is another gift of God.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

God has ordered all things

then God IS the AUTHOR of sin! you cannot escape this FACT

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Aint no luck friend, God has ordered all things. See ya at the Judgment

Romans 9 - 11 will still be about Israel. Not salvation.

My offering of good luck was in you trying to prove otherwise. Many have tried before you and failed to convince me.. Because it is not there

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 9 - 11 will still be about Israel. Not salvation.

My offering of good luck was in you trying to prove otherwise. Many have tried before you and failed to convince me.. Because it is not there

Thats wrong, it is about Salvation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

then God IS the AUTHOR of sin! you cannot escape this FACT

Interesting that you used the term "author" because it speaks to God's transcendence. The author of a fictional novel is transcendent over the people and the story he is telling. If he writes a story about a murder, he is the author of sin in a certain sense. We don't blame the author of a novel for creating evil, bad characters.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Romans 9 - 11 will still be about Israel. Not salvation.

My offering of good luck was in you trying to prove otherwise. Many have tried before you and failed to convince me.. Because it is not there

Why can't it be both? Why can't it be about the salvation of Israel?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thats wrong, it is about Salvation.

Good luck!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why can't it be both? Why can't it be about the salvation of Israel?

Because not all of Israel is Israel

Not everyone who was born of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is saved.

They still had to have faith in God like abraham to be saved,

They are blinded in part (not all of them are saved)

They are our enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved because of the promise.

their will come a time in the future when they all will be saved, but that time is not yet.

its about them, the natural branches. Not gentiles. the unnatural branches.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because not all of Israel is Israel

Not everyone who was born of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is saved.

They still had to have faith in God like abraham to be saved,

They are blinded in part (not all of them are saved)

They are our enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved because of the promise.

their will come a time in the future when they all will be saved, but that time is not yet.

its about them, the natural branches. Not gentiles. the unnatural branches.

I high lighted your post to make a point.
You seem to be talking about salvation. So why do you say Romans 9-11 is not about salvation?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I high lighted your post to make a point.
You seem to be talking about salvation. So why do you say Romans 9-11 is not about salvation?

You did like many did.

You saw what you wanted to see.

the first highlight. I showed not all Israel is saved, If rom 9 - 11 was about salvation. All Israel would be saved.

the second time you highlighted it, I was showing HOW one is saved. Again, if all Israel is saved, then belief is not required. they would be saved by birth.

Now go back and reread what I said. And stop trying to look for keywords to get an aha moment and think you proved me wrong.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You did like many did.

You saw what you wanted to see.

the first highlight. I showed not all Israel is saved, If rom 9 - 11 was about salvation. All Israel would be saved.

the second time you highlighted it, I was showing HOW one is saved. Again, if all Israel is saved, then belief is not required. they would be saved by birth.

Now go back and reread what I said. And stop trying to look for keywords to get an aha moment and think you proved me wrong.

No, if Paul writes about who will be saved and who will not be saved, then the subject concerns salvation. It does not follow, therefore, that since these chapters are about who among Israel will be saved, that it can't also be about salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, if Paul writes about who will be saved and who will not be saved, then the subject concerns salvation. It does not follow, therefore, that since these chapters are about who among Israel will be saved, that it can't also be about salvation.

lol. He did not talk about who would be saved and who would not be saved in the three chapters. He did speak about the nation of Israel in all three chapters in his argument that God did not make a mistake in choosing them, and responding to the many arguments from jews and non jews about God chosing them and what it means.

 

[CadyandZoe]

lol. He did not talk about who would be saved and who would not be saved in the three chapters. He did speak about the nation of Israel in all three chapters in his argument that God did not make a mistake in choosing them, and responding to the many arguments from jews and non jews about God chosing them and what it means.

Choosing them for What? What does it mean? What do you make of Romans 9:1-5?

 

[Jim B]

The OP is about "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated". What are you people talking about?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The OP is about "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated". What are you people talking about?

I believe the subject of discussion is the Reformed doctrine of election. Did God decide whom to save before history began?

 

[TahitiRun]

The Bible contains terms that I like to use, since it avoids confusion and error.

Here are some of the terms I was using.

Man = Soul
Soul = Body + Spirit
Spirit = Breath of God, Image of God in Man
Body = Dust + Flesh
Dust = From the Earth
Flesh = Earthly Nature
Earthly Nature = Carnal/Natural/Old man

If you would, share some of the terms you're thinking of (that avoid confusion and error). Is it your belief that Jesus will take the breath of God, the image of God in man, also known as the candle of Lord, and cast it into hell? And if so, why?

 

[TahitiRun]

I believe the subject of discussion is the Reformed doctrine of election...

Who's idea within reformed theology would that be?

For example: Calvin, Luther, Barth and Schleiermacher are all considered "Reformed", yet each had remarkably different ideas concerning election, as this video example illustrates:

I don't think there is simply one accepted thought on the subject that can be used to validate what we call "Reformed". Karl Barth (out of the four shown in the video) is probably closer to having a correct biblical understanding of election, with Schleiermacher closely behind. Luther would be a distant third place and Calvin (Augustinianism) last.